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post #61 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 10:34 AM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
Mach is right. Lesbian sex is not defined as a sin anywhere in the bible. I saw a PBS program years ago about several orthodox Jewish couples living in Isreal in which the wife was a lesbian. She had a lesbian lover and would go to stay with her lover several times a month. The husband was encouraged to allow her to stay with her lesbian lover as often as he deemed she needed to.

The OP asked if she had sinned. The answer is NO.
What everyone forgets is that ancient Israel, right up to the time of the Bar Kochba Rebellion was a polygynist society (two or more women married to one man) where all the little boys and girls were married and consummated at about 12 or 13 years of age. Jews in the diaspora remained polygynists until about 1000 AD or so when Miamonides decreed monogamy for his followers, but that didn't apply to everyone and it has since expired. Around the same time, some rabbis also started teaching that men should stop allowing their wives to visit over at their girlfriends houses for girl/girl. While that was not adultery, I'm sure the were rabbis were probably worried about the husband popping in for a little threesome action, human nature being what it is. Remember, the rabbis figured a person's lineage by the mother, since you never really were going to be for sure about who the father was.

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post #62 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 10:40 AM
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He pointed out Romans 1:26 as talking about women with women. Unfortunately, he went on to say that those who use that particular verse use verse 27 to "hammer it home" so to speak. Maybe some do, but not all. Verse 27 speaks specifically about male homosexuals. That is very evident. But, taking the entire passage in context, from verse 18 through verse 32, it lists more than JUST sexual immorality. It talks about a variety of sins, including homosexual acts of both men and women..... AND even includes those who approve of those who practice each of the things mentioned in the passage. So, again, YES, she has sinned against her husband. Whether you want to accept that as truth or not, it is a sin.
Yup.
Introducing a sex partner your spouse has no knowledge of or ability to consent to is deception at best.

Even swingers are angry at the deception of their spouse if they have sex with someone without their knowledge.
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post #63 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 03:09 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by Maricha75 View Post
He pointed out Romans 1:26 as talking about women with women. Unfortunately, he went on to say that those who use that particular verse use verse 27 to "hammer it home" so to speak. Maybe some do, but not all. Verse 27 speaks specifically about male homosexuals. That is very evident. But, taking the entire passage in context, from verse 18 through verse 32, it lists more than JUST sexual immorality. It talks about a variety of sins, including homosexual acts of both men and women..... AND even includes those who approve of those who practice each of the things mentioned in the passage. So, again, YES, she has sinned against her husband. Whether you want to accept that as truth or not, it is a sin.
No. Romans 1:26, based on the context of the chapter up to that point, is most likely talking about bestiality; the preceding verses speaking about the gods taken the forms of birds (Leda and Swan/Zeus for example) and beasts (Europa and the White Bull/Zeus again). Paul, like Phil, equates bestiality and male homosexuality (1:27) as equal sexual sins, as does Leviticus. If you spin verse 26 as forbidding anal (as was done before lesbianism became an issue in the Church) or forbidding lesbianism (newer spin) you put Paul in the place of decreeing a new sin, since these were never sins before, either in the Bible or in ancient Hebrew culture.
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post #64 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 04:46 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

Mach and Anon make decent cases for there not being a biblical prohibition on what happened, however I take the stance that since this board is geared not just toward religion, but solving marital problems...i'd have to say that what occurred is dangerous to a marriage.

Sorry. Sex is sex. Sex bonds people. Having sex with someone other than your spouse (even if it isn't "adultery") is not healthy for your marriage.

Yes, OP asked if she'd sinned, but she asked it on a marriage board, not on Christian.com.

Darling it's better down where it's wetter, take it from me! --- Sebastian
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post #65 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 04:50 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

I just don't want the girl going off the deep end. She accidentally discovered something that she has been taught could send her to hell.

I think we should all be especially kind and gentle with her right now. People have done drastic things when they feel they might be forsaken by a deity.

I don't think her question was really her question. I think we need to see beyond it to what she is really seeking: assurance that she is worthy of God's love. She is scared, folks.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man

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post #66 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 05:31 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

*smh* There is nothing more to say. I disagree with both Mach and Anon, but it is their choice to believe as they wish.

God is forgiving. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 Jn 1:9 I hope LR is able to get this worked out. She is just as worthy of God's love as any other person is. We are all sinners. We all do/have done things against what God says are right.

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post #67 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 06:29 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Mach and Anon make decent cases for there not being a biblical prohibition on what happened, however I take the stance that since this board is geared not just toward religion, but solving marital problems...i'd have to say that what occurred is dangerous to a marriage.

Sorry. Sex is sex. Sex bonds people. Having sex with someone other than your spouse (even if it isn't "adultery") is not healthy for your marriage.

Yes, OP asked if she'd sinned, but she asked it on a marriage board, not on Christian.com.
Sin is about religion, and the questioner said she was a Christian, so I answered her under the terms of what the Bible says about it and what the practices were in the time in which the Bible was written. Which is why I stated I was ignoring "tradition" which changes over time depending on who is pope or wannabepope or whatever is popular at the time.

Now as for what anyone does with that info, if anything, "every man does that which is right in his own eyes."
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post #68 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 08:06 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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The bible is very specific about adultery being a sin.
The Bible, the Law of Moses, and the current civil/criminal law of numerous countries and states, descended from various earlier sources including English Common Law, is very specific about the definition of what adultery is. Basically, it's coitus between a married woman and any man other than her husband. The end. We find the biblical prohibition and definition in Leviticus 18:20 "You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor's wife , to be defiled with her." And more in depth, in Leviticus 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

The very word "adulterate" means to add a foreign substance; hence "adultery." And that foreign substance is strange seed.

State v. Lash 1838
"There never was an action for adultery known to be maintained at the common law by any but a husband showing that the offense can not possibly be committed with any other than a married woman. The heinousness of it consists in exposing an innocent husband to maintain another man's children and having them succeed to his inheritance. This is the common law doctrine of adultery transmitted to us from the earliest times by those venerable sages who gathered it from existing precedents, records, and decisions at the times they respectively wrote. I shall cite only a few of them, because the records and decisions referred to by them have been so faithfully consulted and the testimony of those sages examined and condensed with such admirable precision in the imperishable commentaries of Blackstone that it is almost vanity to go behind his work.
"More definite language can not be selected for confining adultery to illicit intercourse with a married woman than his following definition of the offense: 'Adultery or criminal conversation with a man's wife.' The woman must not be single, she must be another man's wife, and whoever, married or single, has illicit intercourse with her becomes guilty of adultery. The text is in III Bl. Com. 139 and is so clear of ambiguity as to challenge any attempt to evade it."

So what we see is that woman must be married and it doesn't matter whether the man is married or not. It is adultery due to the marital status of the woman.

In Blanchflower v. Blanchflower, NH Supreme Court ruled it was impossible for two women to commit adultery since intercourse was coitus.
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post #69 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 08:22 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
The Bible, the Law of Moses, and the current civil/criminal law of numerous countries and states, descended from various earlier sources including English Common Law, is very specific about the definition of what adultery is. Basically, it's coitus between a married woman and any man other than her husband. The end. We find the biblical prohibition and definition in Leviticus 18:20 "You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor's wife , to be defiled with her." And more in depth, in Leviticus 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

The very word "adulterate" means to add a foreign substance; hence "adultery." And that foreign substance is strange seed.

State v. Lash 1838
"There never was an action for adultery known to be maintained at the common law by any but a husband showing that the offense can not possibly be committed with any other than a married woman. The heinousness of it consists in exposing an innocent husband to maintain another man's children and having them succeed to his inheritance. This is the common law doctrine of adultery transmitted to us from the earliest times by those venerable sages who gathered it from existing precedents, records, and decisions at the times they respectively wrote. I shall cite only a few of them, because the records and decisions referred to by them have been so faithfully consulted and the testimony of those sages examined and condensed with such admirable precision in the imperishable commentaries of Blackstone that it is almost vanity to go behind his work.
"More definite language can not be selected for confining adultery to illicit intercourse with a married woman than his following definition of the offense: 'Adultery or criminal conversation with a man's wife.' The woman must not be single, she must be another man's wife, and whoever, married or single, has illicit intercourse with her becomes guilty of adultery. The text is in III Bl. Com. 139 and is so clear of ambiguity as to challenge any attempt to evade it."

So what we see is that woman must be married and it doesn't matter whether the man is married or not. It is adultery due to the marital status of the woman.

In Blanchflower v. Blanchflower, NH Supreme Court ruled it was impossible for two women to commit adultery since intercourse was coitus.
Adultery is adultery, like I said before, the bible won't specify to the "t" for every possible scenario. Plus you are quoting court cases, I thought we were talking about religion. Getting off sexually with another person while belong married is Adultery.
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post #70 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 08:33 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

If you can't call it adultery (although that is exactly what I would define it as), but assuming you can't call it adultery then it is still a sin according to the 10th commandment - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Personally I am atheist so don't have the complications of having to have my moral code in line with any scriptures or the interpretations of those scriptures according to a particular denomination etc. However, I think we would all agree what happened here was wrong and the OP needs to do something about it. We don't all share the same views on what she should do next, so maybe it would be more helpful to her if we looked at those instead of arguing about Bible verses?

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post #71 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 08:35 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by mablenc View Post
Adultery is adultery, like I said before, the bible won't specify to the "t" for every possible scenario. Plus you are quoting court cases, I thought we were talking about religion. Getting off sexually with another person while belong married is Adultery.
In that case, here's your Bible straight:

Leviticus 20:10 “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Anything else, is somebody making something up.
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post #72 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 08:38 PM
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If you can't call it adultery (although that is exactly what I would define it as), but assuming you can't call it adultery then it is still a sin according to the 10th commandment - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Personally I am atheist so don't have the complications of having to have my moral code in line with any scriptures or the interpretations of those scriptures according to a particular denomination etc. However, I think we would all agree what happened here was wrong and the OP needs to do something about it. We don't all share the same views on what she should do next, so maybe it would be more helpful to her if we looked at those instead of arguing about Bible verses?
I think she needs to talk to her church leaders.
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post #73 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 08:44 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by MissFroggie View Post
If you can't call it adultery (although that is exactly what I would define it as), but assuming you can't call it adultery then it is still a sin according to the 10th commandment - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
If the SIL desires and plots to take physical possession of her BIL's property (the definition of "covet"), then the SIL is guilty of covetousness.

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Originally Posted by MissFroggie View Post
Personally I am atheist so don't have the complications of having to have my moral code in line with any scriptures or the interpretations of those scriptures according to a particular denomination etc. However, I think we would all agree what happened here was wrong and the OP needs to do something about it. We don't all share the same views on what she should do next, so maybe it would be more helpful to her if we looked at those instead of arguing about Bible verses?
While I don't see the problem in the act itself, I suggested a course of action in line with that of biblical times in my first post: get permission from the husband or don't do it.
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post #74 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 08:59 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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If the SIL desires and plots to take physical possession of her BIL's property (the definition of "covet"), then the SIL is guilty of covetousness.
Which is a sin...question answered.


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Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
While I don't see the problem in the act itself, I suggested a course of action in line with that of biblical times in my first post: get permission from the husband or don't do it.
I don't have a problem with homosexuality either. I do have a problem with breaking agreements/promises/vows ... eg. sexual contact with another person after promising to a monogamous relationship.

She didn't ask her husband for permission so whether we believe it acceptable if he had agreed to it or not is irrelevant.
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post #75 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-07-2014, 10:18 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Which is a sin...question answered..
It remains to be seen whether or not the SIL intends to relocate the OP into SIL's husband's harem. Covetousness is an intent to steal.

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I don't have a problem with homosexuality either. .
I don't approve of "homosexuality" as defined by the German homosexual who invented the term back in the 1800's. His homosexuality doesn't include women. He wanted the word to be a replacement for "sodomite" in a pamphlet he wrote advocating repeal of paragraph 143 of the German Penal Code which stated:

Unnatural fornication, whether between persons of the male sex or of humans with beasts, is punished with imprisonment of six months to four years, with the further punishment of a prompt loss of civil rights.

That above is right out of Leviticus, but with lighter punishment. Notice only male "homosexuality" is proscribed, as in the Bible.

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I do have a problem with breaking agreements/promises/vows ... eg. sexual contact with another person after promising to a monogamous relationship.
I agree that promises must be kept, but we don't know what vows were used or said. These days, people write their own. I hear some people even take out "obey." So, it may or may not violate their vows, depending on what those vows were.

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She didn't ask her husband for permission so whether we believe it acceptable if he had agreed to it or not is irrelevant.
According to the tale, it was not premeditated, so she could not obtain permission. Verily, it is written: "it is better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission."
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