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post #91 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 01:27 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by MissFroggie View Post
In my experience I have found that Christian counsellors are able to justify sweeping things under the rug by using the Bible to influence their advice.

As a teenager I saw a number of Christian counsellors about the abuse I was dealing with at home. I was repeatedly told to 'Honour thy father and mother'. The physical abuse was dismissed as my parent's loving me by chastising me. I was lectured on obedience. When I went to the police they refused to testify and influenced witnesses not to testify as it was against the Bible and I was defying my parents. My dad got 14 years and I am thankful religion has no place in the legal system here or I'd have probably ended up with 40 lashes and sent back to be raped by him for a few more years.
Even the Christian counselors I know of would say those you saw were wrong. Way wrong.
I am so sorry you were faced with that. What your dad did was against God, your mom, and you. Let me guess, the counselors used "Thou shall not bear false witness"? True, but when called upon, you are to tell the truth. They had the legal responsibility to testify. And, I am angry that they did NOT speak up for you.

Yes, I will acknowledge that SOME Christian counselors advise rugsweeping...as do some secular counselors. But no, not all Christian counselors behave as yours did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissFroggie View Post
Go to someone secular for counselling and your priest/minister for spiritual advice.
In this case, how she presented it, they are intertwined. So, should she go to the pastor about the spiritual ramifications of cheating on her husband? She has asked how what she did translates into her Christian walk. How would a secular counselor address THAT aspect? As over20 pointed out, some psychologists/psychiatrists/counselors are Christians. Some are trained in the secular world, but ARE Christian. They understand where she's coming from, as a Christian... and they have the training to help her.


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post #92 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 02:25 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by MissFroggie View Post
In my experience I have found that Christian counsellors are able to justify sweeping things under the rug by using the Bible to influence their advice.

As a teenager I saw a number of Christian counsellors about the abuse I was dealing with at home. I was repeatedly told to 'Honour thy father and mother'. The physical abuse was dismissed as my parent's loving me by chastising me. I was lectured on obedience. When I went to the police they refused to testify and influenced witnesses not to testify as it was against the Bible and I was defying my parents. My dad got 14 years and I am thankful religion has no place in the legal system here or I'd have probably ended up with 40 lashes and sent back to be raped by him for a few more years.

Go to someone secular for counselling and your priest/minister for spiritual advice.
(((((((((MissFroggie)))))))))

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #93 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 03:59 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

The horrible thing that Miss Froggie suffered through is not an isolated incident.


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Those counselors were very, very wrong. They misinterpreted Scripture. They were very, very evil and will be judged by God, they contributed to your pain and wronged you in the worst way.
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Originally Posted by Maricha75 View Post
Even the Christian counselors I know of would say those you saw were wrong. Way wrong.
I am so sorry you were faced with that. What your dad did was against God, your mom, and you. Let me guess, the counselors used "Thou shall not bear false witness"? True, but when called upon, you are to tell the truth. They had the legal responsibility to testify. And, I am angry that they did NOT speak up for you.

Yes, I will acknowledge that SOME Christian counselors advise rugsweeping...as do some secular counselors. But no, not all Christian counselors behave as yours did.
Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted scripture doesn't change what happened either. Secular therapists have more rigorous training, and when they screw up, they are booted out!

I know of several "Christian Counselors" with whom I would leave a pet to care for let alone a woman going through a very difficult time!

Chrisitan counselors are good for crisis of faith. Secular counselors take care of human behavioral difficulties. Her issue isn't one of faith, it is one of human behavioral difficulty.
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post #94 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 04:47 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted scripture doesn't change what happened either. Secular therapists have more rigorous training, and when they screw up, they are booted out!

...

Chrisitan counselors are good for crisis of faith. Secular counselors take care of human behavioral difficulties. Her issue isn't one of faith, it is one of human behavioral difficulty.
You are right. Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted Scripture doesn't change what happened....And booting a therapist out wouldn't change what happened either. A step in the right direction? Certainly. Still, wouldn't change what DID happen.

Ok, I think I want to get something clear on this. Would you consider a counselor who got a degree at University of Michigan, taking the entire course program there, but happens to be a Christian, a secular counselor or a Christian counselor? I would call them Christian counselors because they bring the Christian perspective to the session. But maybe you consider them secular, due to the education they received?

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post #95 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 04:52 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

They would be secular because they received secular education. Keep in mind, hanging out a shingle as a Christian counselor takes any undergrad degree and a training course. In some states they don't even have to pass the boards.

This is why I suggest people see a PhD therapist. Not a counselor which is a bachelors degree and training, not a social worker, which is a masters degree and passing the boards, but a PhD Dr of Psychology.
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post #96 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 04:59 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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They would be secular because they received secular education. Keep in mind, hanging out a shingle as a Christian counselor takes any undergrad degree and a training course. In some states they don't even have to pass the boards.

This is why I suggest people see a PhD therapist. Not a counselor which is a bachelors degree and training, not a social worker, which is a masters degree and passing the boards, but a PhD Dr of Psychology.
Ok, NOW we're getting somewhere! I was thinking of them as Christian because they ARE Christian. And I wasn't talking about undergrad and a little training. I meant a psychologist. I apologize for that. No, I agree, she needs to see someone who has the PhD. And, like many others, I was using the term "counselor" in place of "psychologist".

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post #97 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 05:47 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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The horrible thing that Miss Froggie suffered through is not an isolated incident.






Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted scripture doesn't change what happened either. Secular therapists have more rigorous training, and when they screw up, they are booted out!

I know of several "Christian Counselors" with whom I would leave a pet to care for let alone a woman going through a very difficult time!

Chrisitan counselors are good for crisis of faith. Secular counselors take care of human behavioral difficulties. Her issue isn't one of faith, it is one of human behavioral difficulty.

There is good and bad on both sides. We all shouldn't generalize on this issue, even myself. Research, research, research is key to finding the perfect fit for Doc to pt.

If a pt is a Christian going through human behavioral difficulties it WILL affect the pt.'s faith. A doc then needs to treat the "whole" pt. or refer the pt to one that can treat them that way.

Example, my Dh works at a Catholic hospital. If a pt, who is suffering physically wants spiritual help as well, they can receive it. A pt. may need spiritual guidance for a physical trauma. Body and soul are wonderfully connected that way.

Last edited by over20; 02-12-2014 at 05:54 PM.
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post #98 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 06:29 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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There is good and bad on both sides. We all shouldn't generalize on this issue, even myself. Research, research, research is key to finding the perfect fit for Doc to pt.

If a pt is a Christian going through human behavioral difficulties it WILL affect the pt.'s faith. A doc then needs to treat the "whole" pt. or refer the pt to one that can treat them that way.

Example, my Dh works at a Catholic hospital. If a pt, who is suffering physically wants spiritual help as well, they can receive it. A pt. may need spiritual guidance for a physical trauma. Body and soul are wonderfully connected that way.
You just proved my point.
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post #99 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 09:27 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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I should clarify, this wasn't ONE Christian counsellor - it was ALL the Christian counsellors I saw. They didn't want to talk about the issues I was dealing with, ALL they wanted to talk about was religion...and MY SIN!!! One even dismissed it as one of the ways God inflicts the sin of the forefathers onto us! She went on to explain how sin was passed down and the consequences of an ancestor for generations ago could befall me and that was God's PLAN!!! So basically I deserved all that had happened because God wanted it to so who are we to question it! I was abused because Adam and Eve couldn't resist temptation and my closer ancestors (maybe several generations before I even existed) were obviously especially terrible sinners and this was God's punishment and my own sins were probably why this had happened to me too. Gee, thanks! I needed counselling to get over the counselling!

When I complained about it they talked wishy-washy Bible talk and nothing was done...not a thing! They continued to mess up people's minds and are likely still doing it!

However, when I had secular counselling - I have been able to discuss faith if I want to without being told WHAT to believe. I had one who mistakenly assumed I was Muslim and gave me a mini-lecture one session on being a single Muslim woman with a child and gave me a website address for an exclusively Muslim dating company! What???? I complained and she was sacked and I was given someone else. There was no question what she had done was inappropriate and unethical.

I absolutely stand by it that secular counselling has a higher standard of ethics and responsibility to the client. If she wants spiritual guidance she should see her minister, if she wants psychological help to deal with things she should see a secular counsellor, I think she wants both...so see both!



Not a counsellor who happens to be Christian - I'm talking about a 'Christian Counsellor' from a Christian counselling service. I have no idea what religious views most of my secular counsellors have even had - I'm an atheist so religion only really comes up when I'm talking about previous incidents involving the Church and the Bible being used as a weapon against me. An appropriately trained counsellor will be able to deal with spiritual conflict regardless of their personal faith. They keep it to your views, your feelings, your thoughts and don't try to influence your beliefs based on their interpretation or understanding of the Bible etc.

Note to OP: Just so you realise, we are not arguing between ourselves lol. We are trying to work out, together, and with all our different opinions, what would be the best advice for you and how to help you the best possible way

I am so sorry that you feel the Church and Bible have been used as a weapon against you......it's so very wrong....and is not what Christ is about...

You are very, very strong.....not all of us Christians are like them....I have been a Christian all my life and have known very mean Christians and very kind ones.......

Blessings
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post #100 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 09:29 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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You just proved my point.
Great.....I Thought you were trying to separate the two....

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post #101 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-12-2014, 11:16 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Great.....I Thought you were trying to separate the two....
My apologies. I failed to pay close enough attention.
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post #102 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-13-2014, 11:37 AM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

Mr Mach did a quick one but lets go back to Romans 1:26

"Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones"

the women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones

The argument comes down to what is natural and what is un-natural sex.

In deed he is right bestiality is an unnatural sex and so is lesbian sex.
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post #103 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-14-2014, 12:41 AM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

The OP seems to have a least two concerns.
1 Am I a sinner?

2 How she should deal with her husband about her sexual experience with her SIL



As for the first I still say that a COMETENT minister/priest, that has been successful with helping others with such sin, should be considered. Of course the more training a minister/priest has in theology would be the best bet


As for the second issue I would say again that a COMETENT, therapist that has been successful with helping couples in this kind of situation, should be considered. A therapist with a PhD would be the best bet.


Back to the sinner question. Most people that I know can read the bible and know how to pray. I think that a person can get a very good idea about if they are a sinner or not without a lot of others involved. I know when I had sex with a girl when I was a teen that it was a sin. I did not need any minister/ priest or PhD to tell me that.


However, I think that a good competent experienced proven Christian counselor can help reassure that the sin can be forgiven by God and the guilt does not have to be permanent or keep you from progressing. Discovering if something is a sin is not the most important discovery. The most important discovery is that God will forgive you and comfort you regardless if anyone else does. That can possibly be the great value of a competent Minister or Priest.





As for MissFroggy being abused I think that those Christian counselors that she referred to are a great detriment to Christian counseling and a great detriment to Christian wisdom.
Furthermore, those Christian counselors failed to protect an innocent child. They took scripture and applied it incorrectly (Honor thy mother and father) but did not consider the scripture that Jesus himself said concerning harming a child. This scripture below is mention in THREE of the Gospels. Not many verses are repeated three times but the one below is.


1. Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.



Yes Jesus mentioned killing in His statement about abusers of children! Jesus’ main theme was for forgiveness, reconciliation, and real love but there are a few things that demands justice be brought forth.

MssFroggy, I do not blame you for running away from such incompetent blind
wisdom-less so called Christians. I wish that there was an authority that would take their counseling privileges away.

We Christians are called to the forgiveness and love of Christ but with out ever forgetting to protect the children and promote His justice when necessary!

Frankly with a sin and a crime such as molestation of a child I do think that the legal system in our culture would be best to intervene and put a stop to it and impose the appropriate punishment.

True Christianity applied correctly is so very valuable and it is a travesty that some so called ministers can be so ignorant and misrepresent a great faith.
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post #104 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-14-2014, 06:38 AM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

You have such a good heart, Mr. Blunt. I am so glad you are here.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #105 of 111 (permalink) Old 02-19-2014, 09:50 PM
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Re: Am I a sinner?

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Originally Posted by mupostori View Post
Mr Mach did a quick one but lets go back to Romans 1:26

"Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones"

the women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones

The argument comes down to what is natural and what is un-natural sex.

In deed he is right bestiality is an unnatural sex and so is lesbian sex.
Prove it. Use scripture other than Romans 1:26, since I've already defused that.
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