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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 12:20 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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Originally Posted by CynthiaDe View Post
Not quite.
The zygot is not technically a fertilized egg. It is often referred to that way, but technically it is no longer an egg, so in reality there is no such thing as a fertilized human egg. Once the sperm hits the egg, it is no longer a sperm or an egg. It is a zygot.
I don't consider that a baby so I imagine that's why I think the doula is FOS for saying what she said to SA.
Also,thanks for all the technical information.


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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 12:28 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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I don't consider that a baby so I imagine that's why I think the doula is FOS for saying what she said to SA.
Also,thanks for all the technical information.
Exactly. It is a difference in opinion about when human life begins.
Hopefully she doesn't have the same view of your opinion, but can understand that we all have them and they are not all the same.

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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 12:32 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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Exactly. It is a difference in opinion about when human life begins.
Hopefully she doesn't have the same view of your opinion, but can understand that we all have them and they are not all the same.
I really don't care if she does or not so it's all good.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 01:15 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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Originally Posted by ScarletBegonias View Post
I don't consider that a baby so I imagine that's why I think the doula is FOS for saying what she said to SA.
Also,thanks for all the technical information.

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CynthiaDe said: Exactly. It is a difference in opinion about when human life begins.
Hopefully she doesn't have the same view of your opinion, but can understand that we all have them and they are not all the same
.
Actually I respect my friends opinion.. I will listen to anyone and try to understand their point of view..I WANT TO LEARN and expand my knowledge, I wasn't overly offended by this... after our conversation that day.. I went to the internet and learned some things..I remember reading how the Jewish view of life was very different from the christian view ...example...

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Most often in Jewish sacred literature, a fetus in the womb is considered a human life “under construction.” The soul is usually described as arriving when the first breath of life is taken at birth. The primary Jewish imagery for the beginning of life comes from Genesis 1:2, where breath hovers above the waters of earth before life emerges from that cosmic womb. Then, in Genesis 2:7, after the body of Adam is fashioned from the clay of the earth, G*d is described as breathing life into him. These stories frame the basis for the Jewish view that the fetus gains full human rights and status only once the baby’s head has emerged from the birth canal [Ohalot 7:6].
So really who is to say who is right or wrong...there are various views on LIFE in this regard..

This lady (and I do call her a friend)...she & her family comes to all our Parties, Bonfires, brings her kids... she knows I no longer call myself a christian ...has accepted this...(maybe she prays for me, I don't know)...I was even foolish enough to mention porn once.. but ya know.. She still seems to LIKE me / laugh with me... so I don't think her feeling I am aborting umteen fetus's or zygots -due to my IUD is playing too much on her mind.. ha ha

Here is an interesting breakdown ....Different scientific views on when life begins. - BabyCenter.

And this article : When Does Life Begin? Medical Experts Debate Abortion Issue

Quote:
Biologist Scott Gilbert, an expert in human development, tells us that there are at least four distinct moments that can be thought of as the beginning of human life. Each can be said to be biologically accurate.

The Genetic view (the position held by the Roman Catholic Church and many religious conservatives) holds that life begins with the acquisition of a novel genome; it is a kind of genetic determinism.

The Survival Doctor's Guides to Burns and Wounds, by @James HubbardThose who hold the Embryologic view think life begins when the embryo undergoes gastrulation, and twinning is no longer possible; this occurs about 14 days into development. (Some mainline Protestant religions espouse a similar view.)

Proponents of the Neurological view adhere to brainwave criteria; life begins when a distinct EEG pattern can be detected, about 24 to 27 weeks. (Some Protestant churches affirm this.) Interestingly, life is also thought to end when the EEG pattern is no longer present.

Finally, one can say that life begins at or near birth, measured by fetal viability outside the mother’s body. (Judaism affirms something close to this position.) After all, somewhere between 50 and 60 percent of all embryos conceived miscarry.

So, when does life begin? I do not think we can know this with any more certainty than we know when life ends. People of faith, and people of good conscience, are going to have to agree to disagree—with a good dose of humility—on matters of life and death.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 01:38 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

I don't take issue with seeing a zygote as human life...but (in our experience) I would rather someone gently provide the info...and not in a reactionary way, followed with shunning. In our case, my wife was shamed and had no recourse. Oh well.
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 01:41 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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I don't take issue with seeing a zygote as human life...but (in our experience) I would rather someone gently provide the info...and not in a reactionary way, followed with shunning. In our case, my wife was shamed and had no recourse. Oh well.
I agree. We are to not to condemn, but to speak from a heart of loving concern.

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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 04:41 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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If you really don't want a child, do not have any. It's not something to do just because you feel pressured by the church or society.


If you don't want to have kids, don't have them. I would not want to be the child from a mom who was unhappy that I ruined her body or she was just "ok" with the idea of having a baby(doesn't exactly make the child feel wanted).

I've always wanted kids. Yeah, pregnancy and childbirth are not always fun, but the reward of having a child has been so worth it. Now, with my son almost at a year old, the stretch marks have faded and I have been back at my pre-pregnancy weight for several months. I love being a mom.
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 04:46 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

I don't know if this is deviating too much from the OP... but in regards to birth control, denomination wise, where does the view that birth control=no bueno fall in the Christian realm? Is it mainly within the Catholic church? I grew up in a very conservative Christian home, and yet not only was I never told birth control was bad, my mother encouraged me to go on it when I got married. I grew up in an Evangelical church, for reference. I never knew there were such views on the pill until I got older.
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 05:27 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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I don't know if this is deviating too much from the OP... but in regards to birth control, denomination wise, where does the view that birth control=no bueno fall in the Christian realm? Is it mainly within the Catholic church? I grew up in a very conservative Christian home, and yet not only was I never told birth control was bad, my mother encouraged me to go on it when I got married. I grew up in an Evangelical church, for reference. I never knew there were such views on the pill until I got older.
As people have become aware of the ways that certain birth control methods work, many people have not wanted to use them. Most Christians do not think that birth control is wrong, as long as it stops conception from happening in the first place, but when they find out that some forms of birth control can end the life of an already conceived human it limits their birth control choices.
There are many people who use barrier methods of birth control, the Fertility Awareness Method or a combination of the two due to not wanting to interfere with the development of the zygote or embryo. Most Protestants believe stopping the sperm and egg from uniting in the first place is fine. Although there are Protestants that believe like the Catholics do, that birth control is interfering with the body’s natural process and should not be used. I won’t go into a theological discussion about. I don’t know of any Protestant churches in my area that teach this, except some very conservative Mennonite denominations.
Catholic teaching is that stopping the natural process of the sperm meeting the egg is wrong by any means. They do teach fertility awareness which requires abstinence during the fertile phase.
It is very difficult to practice only fertility awareness, because a woman’s sexual desire is at its peak during the fertile phase. When a woman is in this phase, she is generally more affectionate and physical, which makes it extremely difficult for couples to abstain. This is why you may have heard that it doesn’t work. It does work, but who can do it? lol That is why people who believe that barrier methods are fine often use fertility awareness and a barrier method during the woman’s fertile phase.
Edited to add: I don’t think this deviates from the topic, because it explains why some Christians are becoming more conservative in the use of birth control and on the topic of family planning in general, which goes to the OP’s questions in the first place.

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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 06:11 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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It is very difficult to practice only fertility awareness, because a woman’s sexual desire is at its peak during the fertile phase. When a woman is in this phase, she is generally more affectionate and physical, which makes it extremely difficult for couples to abstain. This is why you may have heard that it doesn’t work. It does work, but who can do it?
I do agree about what you said in regards to Catholic teaching. They do believe that all birth control is wrong. I am Catholic myself, but don't follow that belief.

As for the above quote, that is actually incorrect. The reason many say fertility awareness does not work is because it does not always work. It is possible for a woman to have all signs of ovulation(but not ovulate until later), her basal body temp can be affected by other things(illness, alcohol, time of day, etc.), cervical mucus can change for other reasons which makes it difficult to follow, and, in general, it is very difficult for women with irregular periods(for many different reasons). From a medical standpoint, I would never recommend a woman use it as a sole form of birth control. It is not reliable at all. The failure rate is similar to the pull-out method, it's just not a good idea.

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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 07:09 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

interesting! yeah I was always told the purpose of the pill was to prevent ovulation, but that it also caused other inhospitable changes for pregnancy in the uterus. But that, if taken correctly, the former should be the function and not the latter. But I've always used a secondary form of birth control though because I'm paranoid, apparently. Whenever I thought of religious sects that were against birth control/equating it to abortion, I always thought of the Catholic Church and the Quiverfull movement.
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 08:31 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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As for the above quote, that is actually incorrect. The reason many say fertility awareness does not work is because it does not always work. It is possible for a woman to have all signs of ovulation(but not ovulate until later), her basal body temp can be affected by other things(illness, alcohol, time of day, etc.), cervical mucus can change for other reasons which makes it difficult to follow, and, in general, it is very difficult for women with irregular periods(for many different reasons). From a medical standpoint, I would never recommend a woman use it as a sole form of birth control. It is not reliable at all. The failure rate is similar to the pull-out method, it's just not a good idea.
I don't entirely agree here. If someone says they are using the fertility awareness method, but they have sex when they know she is fertile, it is still counted as a failure, even though they weren't technically using the method, because they had sex knowing she was fertile. That would throw the numbers way off.
It is true that different things can impact the signs, but if a woman has been charting for a long time, she will know when she is or is not fertile with a high degree of accuracy. This is why it can also be used to get pregnant.
However, it is certainly possible for the fertility awareness method to fail for the above reasons that you mentioned. I just don't think that the statistics are accurate due to people saying they use the method when in reality, they had sex when they knew there was a high risk for pregnancy. I actually know people who used the fertility awareness method and got pregnant, but they also knew they were fertile when they did, but that doesn't mean they didn't use the method. I hope that made sense.
I'm not saying there aren't failures, just that I do not believe it is as high as statistics would have us believe.

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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 08:34 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

QuietSoul, why are you spending time on TAM. Shouldn't you be making babies for your empty rooms? ehh just kidding.

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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 08:55 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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I don't entirely agree here. If someone says they are using the fertility awareness method, but they have sex when they know she is fertile, it is still counted as a failure, even though they weren't technically using the method, because they had sex knowing she was fertile. That would throw the numbers way off.
It is true that different things can impact the signs, but if a woman has been charting for a long time, she will know when she is or is not fertile with a high degree of accuracy. This is why it can also be used to get pregnant.
However, it is certainly possible for the fertility awareness method to fail for the above reasons that you mentioned. I just don't think that the statistics are accurate due to people saying they use the method when in reality, they had sex when they knew there was a high risk for pregnancy. I actually know people who used the fertility awareness method and got pregnant, but they also knew they were fertile when they did, but that doesn't mean they didn't use the method. I hope that made sense.
I'm not saying there aren't failures, just that I do not believe it is as high as statistics would have us believe.
Fertility awareness method - first I have heard it called that. My wife called it the "timing method" and I will attest that it does not work worth a darn!! Now, I am glad it does not work as my middle daughter is a result of that method! Wife went off the pill for one month because it was affecting her bad - doctor said she had to go one month before starting the new pill. So she comes up with this timing method deal and I thought she had it all figured out - I thought wrong! As a matter of fact - we only did it one time that month as I was out of the country for two weeks and was sick when I got back - when I got better we finally got together and did it once during the only time you supposedly can't get pregnant - yah right!

When she told me she was pregnant, what do you think my first thought was?

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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 08:58 PM
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Re: The whole child bearing thing

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Fertility awareness method - first I have heard it called that. My wife called it the "timing method" and I will attest that it does not work worth a darn!! Now, I am glad it does not work as my middle daughter is a result of that method! Wife went off the pill for one month because it was affecting her bad - doctor said she had to go one month before starting the new pill. So she comes up with this timing method deal and I thought she had it all figured out - I thought wrong! As a matter of fact - we only did it one time that month as I was out of the country for two weeks and was sick when I got back - when I got better we finally got together and did it once during the only time you supposedly can't get pregnant - yah right!

When she told me she was pregnant, what do you think my first thought was?

Have you all seen "Father of the Bride II"? The doctor office scene?
lol You can't do the fertility awareness after a month! The timing method that your wife used is not the fertility awareness method. The fertility awareness methods involves months of charting all sorts of things including temperature before a person can have any clue about when she is fertile or not. It is very involved. I wouldn't recommend that anyone rely on it unless they have been charting for at least a year.

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Standard Evidence Thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-...ence-post.html
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