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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2014, 11:28 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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As I think more about the contradiction example that I gave above about God being seen or not seen, I actually had another thought.

How crazy is the thought of an Atheist analyzing the Bible in it’s entirety and determining that there are contradictions? Consider the following:

First, the Bible was created by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and it is also by the Holy Spirit that resides in the believer that the massage of scripture is heard and understood. Get it – as an Atheist you are without the Holy Spirit – so you a deaf to the much of the message to start with!!

Second, I will give an example of how ridiculous the concept of an Atheist examination of the Gospel is: The books Mathew, Mark, Luke where all written for the believer (again - one who has the Holy Spirit within their being) and the book of John was written for the unbeliever and believer- 95% of the information in John is only in this book - where 95% of the information in the other three Gospels are repeated in each book or Gospel. Therefore, for an Atheist to even examine a book not written to them, is actually again – ridiculous.

Any response YNOT??
I'm curious. What do you mean by Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written for the believer? And John was written for the unbeliever and the believer? What difference does it make whether John was different or not?

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2014, 11:34 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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I do not question that you believe in God and that Jesus walked the earth – but, that is not enough!! Please keep in mind that even Jesus was tempted by Satan and we are to expect no less from the Prince of Death – I truly believe that Satan promotes here on earth the concept that Jesus is not God (of course Satan is a liar!!)

It is very clear in the Bible - which by the way is the result of many books and brought together by the Church at the direction and power of the Holy Spirit. The concept of the Trinity was written about around 150 AD but was certainly understood by the very disciples who walked with Jesus here on this earth (Read the Gospel of John – first thing he says is that the Word was God!!! Hopefully, you have the intellect to understand that Jesus is the Word!!


To claim that Jesus is less than God is the same as rejecting Jesus and not accepting him into your heart.

The concept of the Trinity is obvious and is certainly clear - just a few facts for you:

Divine Messiah predicted in the Old Testament
Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”1


“Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”


John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"


This disciple realized, because of Jesus’ resurrection, who Jesus really was -- and humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship.

John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”


It couldn’t be clearer than it is here: Jesus’ highly educated listeners understood His claim of deity. They only had two possible responses: to humble themselves and bow before Him as the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. Unfortunately they chose the latter option. But notice that Jesus doesn’t argue with their accusation, because it was accurate. He really was claiming to be God

John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”


This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!

Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”


In a Jewish culture, only the one true God can be worshiped; their actions show that they acknowledged Jesus as being divine. And Jesus didn’t correct them or say, “Don’t you realize that I’m just a mortal prophet? Stop worshiping me!” Rather, He accepted their worship, knowing He really was God in human flesh

The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi
Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”


Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.

• Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”


“Son of Man” was the primary title Jesus used for Himself -- and this passage shows that this was a clear and strong claim of deity. And in Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, He also included the unmistakable phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself (Mark 14:62). His listeners got the point, refused to believe it, and added it to their reasons to try to kill Him.

Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”


This was a radical statement coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet -- especially calling a human being “Mighty God”; but one that God fulfilled centuries later in Christ
Grace and Jesus's blood are not enough to cover our limited understanding of who God is? I disagree. I think we cannot possibly know all that God is but it is in the trying to understand that we make the connection with God. The Holy Spirit works through us - yes. But does that mean we are perfectly capable of listening? No. We are human. God knows that.
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2014, 11:22 AM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

How many knows the where, the when , what went into making "the Creed"... how opposing Views were very evident from various followers of Jesus , so evident, 300 yrs after Jesus death about his Being born of a Virgin, After Constantine ....

1. The council of Nicea in 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God"...

2. The council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God"...

3. The council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God"...

This makes sense to me >> HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE TRINITY - from a logical point of view.. but again... this is one of the reasons I can never call myself a christian again...I do have issues with the Trinity !

I have this book on my shelf, only read a few chapters though..

When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome

Quote:
The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots within the Christian community as it was forming, however, is a story that is rarely told.

Richard E. Rubenstein takes readers to the streets of the Roman Empire during the fourth century, where a divisive argument over the divinity of Jesus Christ was underway. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer feared for the survival of their monotheistic faith, but they found themselves in different camps—led by two charismatic men—on the topic of Christian theology.

Arius, an Alexandrian priest and poet, preached that Jesus, though holy, is less than God, while Athanasius, a brilliant and violent bishop, saw any diminution of Jesus' godhead as the work of the devil. Between them stood Alexander, the powerful Bishop of Alexandria, in search of a solution that would keep the empire united and the Christian faith alive.
At the end of the day, I see Religion a lot like Politics (especially back in the day before the printing press).... whomever wins the debate, wins the power.. and gets to teach the masses..add a charismatic Leader / Teacher...some fanatics.. burning at the stake, fear of Hell... anything can take off ....just look at the endless denominations, cults testify to this...

In a world of Democracy & Freedom (I thank God I live in the United States..and for our Founding Fathers)... I will continue to look at others & ask myself.. do they possess the Fruits of the spirit , do they live "the Golden Rule"... or even the "Platinum Rule " ~ "Do unto others as they would like you to do unto them". Heck multitudes fall short here too!

But really... these things, if you can find them in a person...it just spells a good person...someone stable , grounded...honorable..



I mean, we all miss it sometimes, but do we want to make it right..do we choose the right thing if we've hurt another, leaving our gift at the alter -to go to our brother or sister ?? Sometimes we'll be rejected (and it hurts) but that's what I look for in people.. and what moves me when I see it in others..is Justice at the heart of your cause..for a better world for us all to live in ...or something else?

There is a place for humility we don't often see in today's world.. because of this, Jesus's teachings - Yes, I greatly appreciate.. these sort of good people do stand out, of course they don't make news headlines, they only touch hearts on a smaller scale ....

Seems only the worst of the worst make Headlines.... that's our world.. that's what we celebrate.. the Kardashians, Riches that is never enough, all the drama...lovely examples for our young people (I have never watched this show mind you)...but God help us all.

Then on top of all of this.. all the various ways to INTERPRET the bible also...

Quote:
Literal: The Fundamentalist view

Historical Docoment

Midrash: Jewish Rabbinical approach to interpretation sought to understand the literal, and then expand the teachings to contemporary issues. "light to heavy"

Pesher: Exegetical method that suggests the prophetic writings contain hidden eschatological significance, or divine mystery. Jesus used this method on several occasions. (Lk 4:16)

Allegorical: Assumes the text has a meaning other than what the literal wording says---- a parable is a short allegory with a Moral meaning. Allogories are often used in Literature.

Typological: seeks to discover a correspondence between people and events of the past and of the present or future. Matt. 12:40 - Jesus parallels the experience of Jonah with his own death. Moses was a type of Christ, who brought the people out of bondage, and was rejected by his own. Isaac when he was offered up by Abraham.

Christological: Firstly, Jesus, and then the writers of the New testament had a decidedly Christocentric approach to Bible interpretation. Old testament passages were viewed in light of the new knowledge they now had about the person and work of the Messiah.

Functional: Fitting scripture into current day context, disregarding the historical context.
So yeah... do I have all this figured out.. absolutely NOT.. but I'm Ok with that !
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2014, 01:07 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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Originally Posted by SimplyAmorous View Post
How many knows the where, the when , what went into making "the Creed"... how opposing Views were very evident from various followers of Jesus , so evident, 300 yrs after Jesus death about his Being born of a Virgin, After Constantine ....

1. The council of Nicea in 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God"...

2. The council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God"...

3. The council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God"...

This makes sense to me >> HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE TRINITY - from a logical point of view.. but again... this is one of the reasons I can never call myself a christian again...I do have issues with the Trinity !

I have this book on my shelf, only read a few chapters though..

When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome



At the end of the day, I see Religion a lot like Politics (especially back in the day before the printing press).... whomever wins the debate, wins the power.. and gets to teach the masses..add a charismatic Leader / Teacher...some fanatics.. burning at the stake, fear of Hell... anything can take off ....just look at the endless denominations, cults testify to this...

In a world of Democracy & Freedom (I thank God I live in the United States..and for our Founding Fathers)... I will continue to look at others & ask myself.. do they possess the Fruits of the spirit , do they live "the Golden Rule"... or even the "Platinum Rule " ~ "Do unto others as they would like you to do unto them". Heck multitudes fall short here too!

But really... these things, if you can find them in a person...it just spells a good person...someone stable , grounded...honorable..



I mean, we all miss it sometimes, but do we want to make it right..do we choose the right thing if we've hurt another, leaving our gift at the alter -to go to our brother or sister ?? Sometimes we'll be rejected (and it hurts) but that's what I look for in people.. and what moves me when I see it in others..is Justice at the heart of your cause..for a better world for us all to live in ...or something else?

There is a place for humility we don't often see in today's world.. because of this, Jesus's teachings - Yes, I greatly appreciate.. these sort of good people do stand out, of course they don't make news headlines, they only touch hearts on a smaller scale ....

Seems only the worst of the worst make Headlines.... that's our world.. that's what we celebrate.. the Kardashians, Riches that is never enough, all the drama...lovely examples for our young people (I have never watched this show mind you)...but God help us all.

Then on top of all of this.. all the various ways to INTERPRET the bible also...



So yeah... do I have all this figured out.. absolutely NOT.. but I'm Ok with that !
SimplyAmerous

I love your mind!! I must confess to you – you remind me of my Grandmother and your husband reminds me of my Grandfather – as a couple they were very similar. When Grandma walked in the room it just lit up! Grandpa was a very humble quit man - could hardly get a word in when grandma was there - She was brilliant and could have been anything she wanted – but, she chose to be a Mom first – married at age 19 – she was one of 10 kids from three different wives – she was from the middle wife who died when my grandma was five. She actually has a half-sister that is younger than my Dad! Her Dad was having kids until he was 65. She was mainly raised by her older siblings and actually would switch houses every few years when she was a teenager – not always being with her father. Her Dad was an Italian Business Owner and worked non-stop – so all of the family just helped out as needed. Her older brother (from the first wife who died also) took over the business from her Dad and turned the business into huge deal where he employed 500 plus people including his Father when he was older. My grandma wanted a huge family as well but was only able to have two sons. Grandpa was a fulltime fireman and a part time home remodeler – he always had two to three jobs going on – worked seven days a week so that Grandma could stay home and raise the kids. They did not send their kids to college – when they turned 18 they were on their own. Grandma went to college when her youngest turned 18 – made straight A’s and received a bachelors in Mathematics and a Masters in Education – and she became a fulltime teacher until she retired at the age of 70!! She taught high school age kids and just loved it!! You know SA – you could be whatever you wanted as well – I am a very good judge and I tell you that you are brilliant – maybe a little too brilliant though?? My grandpa was a little different than your husband in that he was damaged – when my Grandma was 20 – and had two young boys (they are 11 months apart in age!!) my Grandpa was drafted into World War II and was sent to the front lines – he was blown out of a building in France and was in a hospital in England for a month – then sent right back to France where he served as a Fireman at one of the airports. He hardly talked about what he went through but it was obvious to all - especially my Grandma that he was changed when he came back. My Grandma - age 20 - two kids - husband gone for three years all alone!! - She was tough as nails I tell you!!

Back to your post – I have been to Rome and have studied the History of the Catholic Church and will tell you – it is a Miracle that the Church was based out of Rome!! This should not have happened!! If you look at what was happening there around 400 AD you would be crazy to believe that the Catholic Church could start there. I mean Christians were burned at the stake there – I saw where this happened – you had people worshiping all kinds of Gods and Idols – ever heard of the Roman Bath Houses?? I mean these people were corrupt to the hilt!!

But what did the Gospel say?? Peter, upon this Rock I will build my Church – Peters name means little rock – and the big rock is who Peter said Jesus was – the Christ!! And yes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit – this is the big Rock. Did you know that the very first Church built hundreds of years after Peter was crucified (upside down as he did not want to be crucified like Jesus) was built right over where he was buried??? When you would walk into the first Church – to the left was a room that was right over the spot where Peter was Crucified and the very back / center of the Church is on top of Peters burial spot!! The first Church literally was built right on top of the little Rock just as Jesus Said – while at the same time was built upon the Large Rock – and that is Jesus Christ who is God!!

Now tell me, what are the odds of this occurring ?? in Rome – are you kidding me?? On top of Peter hundreds of years later?? You use Human Reasoning right?? Expalin this to me.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2014, 01:20 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

I'm what they call in my area, an "old time Baptist." When I read stuff like this, it makes me thankful that I have God in my heart and can get answers through prayer and don't rely totally on what somebody tells me or what i try to decipher from the Bible. The Bible is a great book, but I'm not smart enough to figure it all out in my own brain, nor do I have enough confidence in someone else to "explain" it to me; there's about as many beliefs and ideas out there as there are fish in the ocean, so I'm glad that God has power to let us know things.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2014, 03:27 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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I'm somewhere between the Atheist and the Christian... I would call myself a DEIST...



The Christian would call me a heretic because I don't believe in the virgin birth / the trinity or the original sin doctrine.. I sat under christian teachings most of my life..I..I applaud religious freedom and the Separation of Church & State..
I would not call you a Catholic, but you seem perfectly Christian based on that. The original sin doctorine is understood by few and even the Catholic Church includes Julian of Norwich (a hero of mine).

I would also applaud the Separation of Church & State, as a Catholic.

As a scientist (proper one with a PhD), I would disagree that we are based on reason. I would also believe reason as we know it prevents us reaching God. I had a Priest explain to me that I should be willing to renounce all my beliefs in God in order to find God, as what our prejudice and reason leads us to is not God. The Zen Buddhists have a more poetic way of putting it: "If you meet Buddha on the road to enlightenment, kill him".
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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-31-2014, 12:40 AM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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The word "trinity" doesn't occur in the Bible. It was a doctrine conceived in an attempt to explain Father-Son-Holy Spirit being one.

I prefer not to understand. I like the mystery of it. I don't like "God in a box". Everyone should come to their own understandings.

Since there are approximately 30,000+ Christian denominations; seems like that's what we have decided to do. Understand it best in our own way.

I'm glad that in the U.S., we are not forced to believe or attend a church that we do not agree with.
I like the mystery of the trinity too.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-31-2014, 08:22 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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I'm glad that in the U.S., we are not forced to believe or attend a church that we do not agree with.
Or pay for.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-01-2015, 11:41 AM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

TBF, there are few nations where you would be forced to follow a faith, pay for it or attend services.
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-07-2015, 07:22 AM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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I thought the epistles stated that Peter, James, and John were the "pillars of the church" in Jerusalem. They were told to preach the good news to the circumcision, and Paul and Timothy to the uncircumcised.

Didn't the gentiles from Rome come to meet peter in Galatia, and he refused them, not the other way around?
Mostly spot on... Christianity WASN'T supposed to be preached or evangelized to non-Jews. It was to the people of Israel, ONLY. That's why the "real" apostles stuck around where they were.

Paul NEVER met, saw, or even heard Jesus... he was a Roman soldier, then a Jew. It is odd that this Roman soldier was "chosen" (by the emperor, NOT Jesus) to spread this Christianity into Rome as a wonderful psyop to control the population in a declining empire.

The only nontrinitarian christians (yes, small "c" as they "choose" what is convenient in faith to them) I am aware of are mormons and jehovah's witnesses.

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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-07-2015, 08:24 AM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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Mostly spot on... Christianity WASN'T supposed to be preached or evangelized to non-Jews. It was to the people of Israel, ONLY. That's why the "real" apostles stuck around where they were.

Paul NEVER met, saw, or even heard Jesus... he was a Roman soldier, then a Jew. It is odd that this Roman soldier was "chosen" (by the emperor, NOT Jesus) to spread this Christianity into Rome as a wonderful psyop to control the population in a declining empire.

The only nontrinitarian christians (yes, small "c" as they "choose" what is convenient in faith to them) I am aware of are mormons and jehovah's witnesses.
Not sure what the Three Pillars that are stated in this thread have to do with anything? As a matter of fact the only Pillars I have ever heard of are the Four Pillars of the Catholic Church.

Your statement above about Paul is correct in that he was a Roman citizen and he was a Jew (a son of Israel.) However, you make two completely incorrect statements which certainly cannot be backed up by any evidence: First, Paul did meet Jesus in person – read the letters that Paul wrote (yes, this was after the resurrection of Jesus from the dead – if you do not believe in the resurrection – then you obviously are not Christian so I would then wonder why you would even comment here.) Second, the Gospel was to be preached first to the Jew and then to the Gentile (again – read the Bible.) Third, a Gentile who has accepted Jesus (as God in three persons) into his heart has been grafted into the covenant that God made with Jacob – or another words – are equivalent to the Jews in Gods eyes (again – read the Bible.)

Now – given that Paul was a Roman citizen, a Tax Collector, and a prosecutor of Christians (not in a court of law – but someone who violently killed Christians – think of modern day ISIS) what are the odds that a person like this would change his entire character and worship Jesus?

And by the way, there is no such thing as a Christian with a small “c” – one either accepts Jesus as part of the Trinity which is evident in the Gospel – or one is not a Christian – period.
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-07-2015, 10:12 AM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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Gal 2:9
and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
(ESV)

(Again - read the Bible)

I'm not sure what the pillars of the catholic cult have to do with anything, except that Cephas didn't go to Rome.

In order for Peter to have ever set foot in Rome, you are saying that the Bible would have to state this - and if it does not state this, it cannot be true - is that your logic??

I ask you this - where in the Bible is the Bible ever mentioned? Where is it defined?

If you take your logic - the Bible cannot be the Bible because the Bible is never mentioned.

There are those who have no comprehension as to where the Bible came from or what its purpose was / is - it seems to me that this is applicable to you.

By the way - what is a cult?? You claim that the Catholic Church is this - by what do you base your claim?

By the way - name one Church that is the True Church then - and please tell me how you justify your claim.

Also, are you claiming that the Catholic Church cannot proclaim the Gospel? And - that if one hears the Gospel and accepts Jesus Christ as their savior as a result - this person is does not have eternal life through Jesus Christ? Is that your claim? God needs your vision of a Church to spread the Gospel? Is that what you are saying?

I tell you that it is historical fact - through Roman History - not the Bible - that Peter was crucified in Rome!!

Are you trying to say that in a three hundred year period that the entire Christian community at the time - did not know just by word of mouth passed down through the generations, where Peter was killed?? (I tell you this - my Great Great Great Grandfather was born in New York City in 1845 - I know this beacuse i sat with his daughter when she was 104 years old and I was 6 (back in 1969) and she told me about her Dad - i even know his name - and I have no written record of this birth 170 years ago - cant be true right? I mean I have no written record and this was 170 years ago!!) Or for that matter where the Mother of Jesus died?? Or, how about this - that the Mother of Jesus never died and was ascended into Heaven. Oh, I forgot that is not in the “Bible” Or, how about this – the spear that pierced Jesus side on the cross – it could not have been kept by the disciples and passed down through the Generations – and now resides in the Church that sets over the resting place of Peter? How could this ever happen?

Did you ever hear of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that the Holy Spirit has the Power to have done these few things? Or – if it was Gods WILL – could this have happened? I mean – Peter buried in Rome – Mary ascended into Heaven – Spear passed down through the Generations? Could this have happened if it was Gods WILL??

Oh, I guess I already know the answer - if it is not in the Bible then it cannot be so.
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-07-2015, 03:14 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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Isn't your "leader" democratically appointed by a council of human seers, to be the image of god on earth. Is your "leader" believed to speak for god, abrogate gods spoken word, is he believed to be infallible?

I would define that as a cult.

I read in acts, when the first council assembled, minus Stephen, they attempted to democratically select who would replace Stephen.
God rejected, and God selected.

God also selected Saul, who publicly rebuked Peter for his fallibility in preaching works of initiation. Would that mean that Paul (Saul) was committing apostasy, because he did not abide in the teaching of the first Pope?

Wouldn't the True Church be established in Antioch, where Peter preached his first sermon, and the Holy Spirit converted 3000 in that day? I am not denying Peter the honors of being the rock with which God laid his Church, but I am denying your Roman claims that the Church was built on his death, the book of acts is our historic origin brother, and that book is very clear that the birth of our church was a anointing of strength, courage, wisdom, and life.

Your church origin is filled with conspiracy, deceit, political envy, human exploitation, heresy, corruption, and death.

The tragic part, is that all the violence that gets attributed to the spread of Christianity throughout the first 2 centuries, was organized and carried out by a false church, with a false Christ, and a false history, and a repugnant gospel of religious obedience and legal adherence, totally absent of GRACE.

With all the GOLD that belongs to the Vatican, they can never pay that debt.

Its a bankrupt Cult for
a bankrupt faith.

As I thought - you have no idea what the definition of a Cult is. First requirement - it is a sect (which braches off from another) often with a leader that is solely in charge. So you think that the Catholic Church broke off from TRUE Christianity around the year 400 AD?? So you think that the Catholic Church is a small sect? Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds?? READ MY LIPS HERE – the Catholic Church brought together the BIBLE THAT YOU USE TODAY!! The Catholic Church is the Largest Church (Christian) in the WORLD!!! Impossible for it to be a cult!! And by the way – I am of the protestant persuasion and do not attend the Catholic Church.

YOU SAY - Your church origin is filled with conspiracy, deceit, political envy, human exploitation, heresy, corruption, and death:

Well - I can say the same thing about ALL Christian Churches – the Catholic Church does NOT hold a monopoly on SIN!!! Do you not understand that ALL fall short of what God expects and that we are only clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ?? Do you really expect a Church which is full of sinners would be perfect?? Is that the goal of God when He founded the Church??
One of the biggest lies I hear from Non-Catholic Christians is that the Church really did not progress through the Church of Rome and that there was an alternate path (the real church that no-one really knew about until the great reformation) – BIGGEST CROCK I HAVE EVER HEARD – and there is NO PROOF!!!
LOOK at History – Who was Martin Luther?? A Catholic Priest?? Maybe??

I agree with you that the concept of the POPE is FALSE –THUS I AM NOT Catholic. However, as you will see throughout the WORD OF JESUS – God can exercise His Will by whatever means He wants!! YES, through a Church full of SINNERS including a POPE.

The Protestant Church I attend – Tithe 10% of your Gross Income (is that Biblical??) Preacher stands right up there and says if you are not Tithing – don’t come here!! Really?? You know any preachers like that? From one Baptist Church to the other – is there a consensus on Tithing?? I will tell you that I have been to many in my younger days – one Church says it’s just a rule of thumb – the next Church – Oh ya, 10% of gross income? Kind of like just make it up as you go along!!

You really need to read up on your History of the Church – in the first few hundred years, it was the Christians being persecuted. As a matter of fact in Rome – Christians were burnt at the stake during those years.

And yes, the TRUE Church is built upon JESUS – and who HE is – The Father SON and Holy Spirit.

You completely ignored my question from the prior post – Can a person go to a Catholic Church – hear the Gospel and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior? If so, is this person Justified through the Blood of Christ?

Last edited by Aspydad; 01-07-2015 at 03:38 PM.
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-07-2015, 03:36 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

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Originally Posted by FormerSelf View Post
This is a thread that is bound to go down in flames.
FormerSELF - You are a SMART MAN!!
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-03-2016, 06:05 PM
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Re: any non trinitarian christians?

You could not have said it any better. I absolutely agree with all that you said. AMEN!.
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