My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not - Page 10 - Talk About Marriage
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post #136 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:01 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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How would you know what I tolerate? That's right, you don't. Just assumptions all day and night.

I find it interesting that you're ranting and raving about how eiiiivil Christians are, yet here you are in this thread, treating people like absolute dirt. God doesn't need my defense, and you can attack religion all day and night. Your ugliness toward the people who do believe is another matter entirely. There are perfectly loving, kind atheists; I know some. You, however, don't appear to be one of them. You have a lot in common with the very type of theists you seem to abhor so. Two sides of the same coin.
I quoted you, for crying out loud. You flat said you will not debate the existence of god or your faith. Who exactly, and how exactly, am I treating "like dirt"? Where did I say Christians are evil? Quote me, and explain exactly how. I am debating the institution of religion, and the ability for people who do NOT buy it to coexist, or not, and why, with those who do. Telling someone that I see no reason to believe what they do, and that I think their beliefs are not the result of critical thinking, that they hold the potential to cause harm, isn't "disrespecting" those people or treating them like dirt. I mean, you don't believe in thousands of other religions! Are you disrespecting all of them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE


Last edited by changedbeliefs; 02-10-2015 at 01:08 PM.
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post #137 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:07 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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Ok pal. Are you intimately familiar with me or my God that I worship? I haven't met you and don't claim to know you intimately or your belief system. When I say someone isn't representing my God, I am pretty damn sure I know what I am talking about better than you.

Want me to start pointing you towards reference materials when you don't identify with someone claiming to be associated with you?
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I didn't realize you had your very own god. If "unhinged" is demanding evidence for the things that people claim, believing in only things that are true, real, tangible, knowable...yep, I guess that's me.
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post #138 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:16 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

Just a short video, watch this and try to understand what it's like for a non-believer to get into a discussion about faith and religion. Listen how quickly this caller goes, "why are you so offended?!" and the hosts respond, "um, we're not offended." That's how easily I've heard many believers jump to "oh, your firm opinion opposite mine must mean you're offended!" And when they ask him simple questions about why he believes, how does he know, he just keeps skirting and saying more unprovable statements. That's what this thread has been like for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruchQt3SpXM
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post #139 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:19 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

Changed, you should research the no true Scotsman fallacy, as it does not apply to this.

When the subsets are intersecting, there is no fallacy.

When you define a group of people as having a set of beliefs, it is perfectly logical to exclude people who do not ascribe to those beliefs from that group. The Scotsman fallacy deals with non-related qualities, such as drinking tea and being a Scotsman.
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post #140 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:29 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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Changed, you should research the no true Scotsman fallacy, as it does not apply to this.

When the subsets are intersecting, there is no fallacy.

When you define a group of people as having a set of beliefs, it is perfectly logical to exclude people who do not ascribe to those beliefs from that group. The Scotsman fallacy deals with non-related qualities, such as drinking tea and being a Scotsman.
No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Examples:

A simple rendition of the fallacy:
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge." Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

How is that different from: "No Christian [example behavior]." "But, I know this Christian who does that [and, btw, uses Christianity to justify it]." "Well, no true Christian would do that." ??

Real world example: Bible-thumpers who vehemently protest gay marriage, based distinctly on Bible verses regarding it as "abomination." Go, tell me whether that's "true" Christianity, or something else?
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post #141 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:31 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

I give up.

Take care guys and gals. Play nice. I'll see you in other parts of TAM.
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post #142 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:37 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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Right, you're fine if people want to hear it and rah-rah with you, you just don't want to tolerate anyone telling you that you're wrong, or it's baseless, or that it's very often used for harm, etc... And what luck, the Bible just happens to validate it by saying, essentially, "if people criticize it, walk away and don't listen."
My guess is he's just saying that it's a pointless debate with the same exact arguments slung in both directions and nothing will have changed afterwards. No epiphanies or profound new outlook ever comes from believer / non-believer back and forth.

I'm as deep as a puddle. Holland.
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post #143 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:40 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

See from 0:45 on, as regards to "attacking" a person vs. beliefs. Matt articulates it well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQWz8EcXSVo
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post #144 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:41 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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My guess is he's just saying that it's a pointless debate with the same exact arguments slung in both directions and nothing will have changed afterwards. No epiphanies or profound new outlook ever comes from believer / non-believer back and forth.
Well, I would have to disagree, because I had quite an epiphany once I started listening to people who treat their beliefs and their thinking critically, consistently. I would agree it is pointless if someone takes the stance of, to sum up very concisely, that they don't care if their beliefs are true. It's an eloquently succinct question that still amazes me as to its efficiency: do you care if what you believe is true? People who say no to that, then I agree, no progress will ever be made. What I find somewhat confusing still, is that I feel like people have a different answer to that, depending on the topic. Do you care if your beliefs are true about which medical procedure is best to choose for your cancer? Do you care if your beliefs are true about where you should invest your money? Do you care if your beliefs are true about whether or not there is a supernatural being overseeing every atom of life in this universe? Shouldn't the answer be the same?
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post #145 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:43 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

What is that.....? Do you hear.......? Is that a deceased equine undergoing tenderization.....?
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post #146 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 01:47 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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Originally Posted by jaquen View Post
How would you know what I tolerate? That's right, you don't. Just assumptions all day and night.

I find it interesting that you're ranting and raving about how eiiiivil Christians are, yet here you are in this thread, treating people like absolute dirt. God doesn't need my defense, and you can attack religion all day and night. Your ugliness toward the people who do believe is another matter entirely. There are perfectly loving, kind atheists; I know some. You, however, don't appear to be one of them. You have a lot in common with the very type of theists you seem to abhor so. Two sides of the same coin.
This last part hits the nail on the head changedbeliefs. Your condescending attack of people who believe in religion sounds very similar to the tact of those you're talking about. It's two sides of the "you must think as I do" coin.

I'm as deep as a puddle. Holland.
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post #147 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 02:49 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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This last part hits the nail on the head changedbeliefs. Your condescending attack of people who believe in religion sounds very similar to the tact of those you're talking about. It's two sides of the "you must think as I do" coin.
Please, which things are actually condascending? I'm serious. Disagreeing, asking for evidence, not believing the same things, is not condascending. I am not pushing a belief, I am fending off the notion that I should accept a belief that someone else has. There is a big difference.
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post #148 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 03:38 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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What's not true? He really doesn't seem very happy. ��
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He's just passionate about what he believes. I think that's fine. I just don't think it is ok for you to dump on somone else who believes differently than you do.
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post #149 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 03:52 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

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Would you consider it reasonable, or unreasonable, for me to see someone's perspective on me of "you're going to hell, non-believer" as a barrier to having any sort of mutual-respect-based relationship? Let's go back to the OP's topic at hand. Could they have any sort of viable marriage if her husband views her as doomed for hell for not agreeing with his beliefs? Realize, that is an absolutely realistic, if not mandated to be realistic based on his beliefs, situation. A religious person who does not believe that is, in essence, abandoning a portion of the doctrine. His religion dictates that he believe that all non-believers are going to hell, that they deserve it.
So, the only people you can hang out with are people who think like you? That is pretty limiting. If you have a friend who is constantly telling you you're going to hell, that is not really appropriate and I wouldn't want to hang out with them. But why does everybody have to be exactly like you for them to be worthy enough to be part of your social circle?
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post #150 of 207 (permalink) Old 02-10-2015, 03:53 PM
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Re: My husband has recently become religious and I'm sooo not

Understand, that the person who believes in the imaginary thing needs to prove it exists. You cannot 'dream up' something and then shift the burden on those who don't believe to prove you wrong, a common logical fallacy employed by believers. Prove to me unicorns don't exist. Look up Russell's Teapot.

I know. Iíve heard this all before. Thatís ok. We can disagree on that.

Yes, we CAN respect different worldviews, but I am under no obligation to actually do so. Realize, that is distinct from respecting A PERSON. I respect PEOPLE, their right to life and happiness. I don't, and don't have to, respect the notion of shutting down critical thinking and believing an imaginary being is puppet-stringing the world. You can feel disrespected all you want, and even take offense, but so what. I'm offended when people tell me I'm going to hell, you think that changes their mind?

Well, then I probably wouldnít spend a lot of time with you. Because my religious beliefs are a major part of who I am as a person. And if you are going to be derogatory about my beliefs, I will avoid people like that. But I donít suppose you would care. There are plenty of people who see the world differently who do not go out of their way to degrade another personís way of being in the world. Why do you feel entitled to do that?
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