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post #46 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 07:57 AM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

For the love of all that is sane....

Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism does NOT require faith. Atheism is NOT a belief system. It does NOT have a doctrine. Atheism is ONLY the answer to, "do you believe in a god?" That's IT.

Gnosticism is the answer to, "do you KNOW?" We can operate under the belief that something is real or not real, but whether we claim to KNOW it is different. An agnostic atheist - my category - says, "I don't claim to know there is no god, but I don't believe there is."

Analogy: I toss a coin into the air, and as it comes down on a table, I immediately cover it with a cup, while it's stilll rotating about. The following are your choices of opinions/reactions as to the result:

Gnostic: "I know it's (heads or tails)."
Agnostic: "I don't know which it is."
Theist: "I assert that it's (heads or tails)."
Atheist: "I reject the theist's assertion."

So say we have a gnostic theist who says, "I assert that it's heads and I know it with certainty." The agnostic atheist would respond, "I don't know which it is, but I don't buy the theist's claim." Why would anyone believe the theist? Forget that it's a 50/50 shot, it's an unfounded claim, and there's no reason to believe he's right. What if it was a 30-sided dice, and the theist now says, "I believe it's 6"? Still unfounded, and now their odds are much lower. It becomes more clear this claim should be rejected until there's some kind of evidence. The claim that your god, your religion, of the THOUSANDS is "true" is even more outlandish, and the atheist simply rejects such claims until proven.

One more: suppose I'm your neighbor and I come to you one day and say, "I'm really sorry to tell you this, but there's a nuclear bomb under your backyard. When it goes off, it's going to obliterate just your house (it's a really new type of focused nuclear bomb). You really need to move asap." Would you believe me? Would you claim to KNOW whether I'm right or wrong? Would you actually take my advice without any further investigation or proof? There's lots of options there. Atheism is simply the equivalent of "I don't believe there's a bomb under my house." IMHO, theism and religion is the equivalent of going "OMG, wow, holy crap, honey, get your stuff, we gotta move!!!!!"

bfree: I believe you're confusing the fact that most atheists are skeptics and critical thinkers, and that colors their worldview and actions in many other realms of discussion. However, an atheist is not directed to "believe" or "behave" in any way because of their atheism. It is merely a stance on a single question. Said in other words, a person being a skeptic and/or critical thinker is more likely to be called a "belief system" or "doctrine," and atheism is likely just one consequence of that approach.

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post #47 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 08:16 AM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Also, I'll leave this here. See #5 in particular, it's a common myth/misconception that is simply inaccurate.

10 egregious myths the religious perpetuate about atheists, debunked - Salon.com
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post #48 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Haha you guys are awesome. I forgot about this thread.

Thanks for the posts everyone.

I like what was said above how a little difference is good.

For myself, there is no possible way I could date a Christian, Catholic, Muslim or Atheist...but I found the people who get defensive about talking about any sort of theology are the ones who are the most insecure about it. I dislike being with negative nellies. I like having full blown conversations about spirituality and it's difficult with narrow minded people; be it atheist, christian, or whathaveyou. I'd like to say I wouldn't ever date one of those people, but a big turn on for me is meeting someone who is secure about their faith, even if it is bat **** crazy. Conversatives and prudes typically make me sick to my stomach though.

Don't get me started on particular religions or atheism lol. I am happy to bash the ignorant lies that have gone on far enough.

If you must know what I believe in, google Thelema.
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post #49 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 02:27 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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...but a big turn on for me is meeting someone who is secure about their faith...
I cannot understand why people see "faith" as such a virtue. Faith is belief without evidence, without a good reason. Faith is the supposed control over that which is out of your control. It's idyllic fantasy, and we wouldn't endorse it in any real-world situation. Often, we use "faith" in place of "positivity," and I believe in the latter, to an extent, but the true definition of the former is irrational, IMHO. If I had an exam to take, I wouldn't sit back and "have faith" I'd pass. I'd study my butt off and prepare to the full extent of my abilities. I may then potentially "think positively" in the moment, I may "trust" my preparation, or I may "hope" it pays off, but I would argue all of those are irrelevant; either my preparation was sufficient or it wasn't. No amount of crossed fingers, self-motivational thoughts, or prayers to god are going to change that. I find it incredibly frustrating that a realistic, rational view of the world is often discounted in favor of someone with their head in the clouds who just "has faith" that something mystical is going to occur. Worse, when actual, real, tangible things are tossed aside, and instead attributed to the mystical. It's like thanking god after a team of surgeons saves your life. It's dismissive of the real things in front of us.
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post #50 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Hey dude! You are so lucky to have stumbled upon my thread. Please allow me to enlighten you. It's really simple.

1) The external world is a reflection of your internal self. For a sorcerer, reality, or the world we all know, is only a description that has been pounded into you from the moment you were born. The reality of our day-to-day life, then, consists of an endless flow of perceptual interpretations which we have learned to make in common. The first goal of an apprentice to sorcery is to stop the world so that one see energy directly. The second goal is to eliminate every drop of fear in you so that your dreams become still, and crystal clear. The third goal is to destroy your ego so that you can truly appreciate the power of the universe and not invoke the wrong types of energy. All of these goals have a common goal of saving as much energy as possible. With all this discipline, focus and energy, one can then attempt to master lucid dreaming at will. Once the sorcerer eliminates all the crap that shows up in his dreams, he is free to fly away and do whatever he pleases, beyond the laws of time and space. Sure you could say it's all in your head...but the master sorcerer can dream in real time...and the legend says he can wake up wherever, whenever, however. The true term is brujo. The legend (this is the most important distinction between shamanism and everything else) is that one can slip into their dreaming body right before they die, and retain their consciousness instead of being channeled back into the collective to be reincarnated (Because our dreaming body's are in fact our ethereal body's). You have good reasons for believing what you do. Just know this...as crazy as I sound, there is a vast amount of knowledge around this subject, dating all the way back to the Sumerians & Egyptians.

2) A sorcerer aims to be more than human by changing faith into two things. Will and intent. Thus the sorcerer can summon things in the world to occur and command the universe to lead him to his true will (or destiny). The world is full of omens from sounds, to animals, to winds...Most people ignore these omens and complain later...but if they followed them, oh how "lucky" they would be. Intent is just that. Looking at the sky and intending it to rip apart. Intending for something good to happen to them. Some people pray. A shaman commands. That is the difference.

Think of shamanism as this. The ability and training involved with mastering infinite perception from a human or non-human perspective. Projected consciousness. Projected manifestation.

I could talk forever about this stuff. I love it. And that's all that matters. I love seeing people passionate about things they love. Faith or no faith matters not...but passion... passion is life.

My advise is to read some of Castaneda's books or go to south america to an ayuhasca retreat. 10 bucks says you wouldn't last a day. $1000 says you would come back "of faith". $5000 says you'll die.

In summary or in other words, the sorcerer is god and is the master of his own universe. He has full faith in himself and he represents the totality of all of his lives in this very moment. "Do as thou wilt, love is the law, love under will." That's it!

I hope it sounds crazy. I'd be pissed if I were deemed sane.
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post #51 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 08:49 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

What would you call it? Essential gnostic exestentialism?

You remind me of a book that I read when I was a kid by Brian Bates, called "Way of the Wyrd". It was an interesting piece of history and speculative fiction on spirituality in the dark ages and contains most of the elements of Shamanism you describe. And no doubt the ancients believed something like it, but then they also murdered their children to keep the angry skygods happy so thats not much of an endorsement.

If cultures create their own realities, why did and do these realities match up so well as isolated cultures came into contact with one another? Whatever metaphysical there might be, there is an objective material world.

The bottom line on who I might date or associate with comes down to two things: Their ability to live rationally despite a few unfounded beliefs, and the degree in which they want to influence other people lives.

I am more less fine with proselytizing, after all I can always tell them to get lost, but people cooking laws and cultural rules around their unfounded biases is the serious issue for atheists. For example the Book of Revelations is an exceedingly toxic narrative to the development of a happy and healthy future on this planet.

Likewise, I'd not be thrilled for my State's laws to draw from shamanism because its so unfounded.
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post #52 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 09:18 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

I respect the beliefs of atheists but I do have a problem with them refusing to admit to their "belief." It has been a bone of contention between my atheist friends and I. Many will claim they will not believe in God until there is some scientific proof. But how does scientific proof come to pass? By creating a hypothesis and then proving it. What is a hypothesis? A belief. And how many countless times did science believe something to be true but wasn't able to be proven until some later date. Will it be the same with God? Will it someday be possible to prove God's existence? Some atheists like to say "if atheism is a belief system then "off" is a television channel." My response is that all belief systems are centered on God, His existence or His non-existence. God is the TV. Religions are the channels. If you turn God off you still have to acknowledge the TV's existence.

"You will not cry, or whine, or laugh, or giggle, or sneeze or burp or fart!"
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post #53 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 10:01 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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I hope it sounds crazy. I'd be pissed if I were deemed sane.
I think you nailed it, then.
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post #54 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-21-2015, 10:15 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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I respect the beliefs of atheists but I do have a problem with them refusing to admit to their "belief." It has been a bone of contention between my atheist friends and I. Many will claim they will not believe in God until there is some scientific proof. But how does scientific proof come to pass? By creating a hypothesis and then proving it. What is a hypothesis? A belief. And how many countless times did science believe something to be true but wasn't able to be proven until some later date. Will it be the same with God? Will it someday be possible to prove God's existence? Some atheists like to say "if atheism is a belief system then "off" is a television channel." My response is that all belief systems are centered on God, His existence or His non-existence. God is the TV. Religions are the channels. If you turn God off you still have to acknowledge the TV's existence.

But atheism is not a belief system. it is lack of belief/faith. It is the product of the philosophy of rationalism. Call rationalism a belief system if you like, and you would be less wrong, but still wrong. Religions want us to believe things because of doctrine, or metaphysical "proof" and rationalists will only believe with material proof. What is frustrating is the desire to conflate those two concepts on equal terms. Are they both "worldview", sure, but one is about faith and the other exists with no knowledge or concept of faith.

Oh, and Buddhism has no god, so is that a faith?

The hypothesis is "god exists". It remains unproven. That is all.

"god does not exist" as a hypothesis does not inform atheism in any way.

You frustrate your friends because you cannot view the world without god. In your world god is there right alongside the atheists and you can't separate the two out. For an atheist there is not god there at all.
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post #55 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

"Way of the Wyrd" is an amazing book!!

This the physical plane of existence. Shamanism allows you to practice techniques that render your perception fluid (or assemblage point), so that you can take a peak at other planes of existence.

There are too many tv shows and movies that have ruined it for real witch doctors. Everyone thinks they are crazy lol.

And yeah, sacrificing is powerful ****. There are two paths in life. The left and hand path and the right hand path.

Those who separate from the divine (left) and those who merge with it. Satanaism, Atheism and Shamanism actually all belong to the left.

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post #56 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 11:51 AM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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But atheism is not a belief system. it is lack of belief/faith. It is the product of the philosophy of rationalism. Call rationalism a belief system if you like, and you would be less wrong, but still wrong. Religions want us to believe things because of doctrine, or metaphysical "proof" and rationalists will only believe with material proof. What is frustrating is the desire to conflate those two concepts on equal terms. Are they both "worldview", sure, but one is about faith and the other exists with no knowledge or concept of faith.

Oh, and Buddhism has no god, so is that a faith?

The hypothesis is "god exists". It remains unproven. That is all.

"god does not exist" as a hypothesis does not inform atheism in any way.

You frustrate your friends because you cannot view the world without god. In your world god is there right alongside the atheists and you can't separate the two out. For an atheist there is not god there at all.
Oh, don't get me wrong. My friends and I have lively discussions. But I wouldn't say they are frustrated and I'm certainly not frustrated. I actually love hearing different points of views. And I can indeed envision a world without God. I'm not so Christian that I'm no earthly good. I can see opposing viewpoints very well. I guess I just can't see how one can so fervently deny God's existence? Has His existence been proven? To me yes of course. To those that do not believe He exists, not yet. I believe one day it will. But to be so absolutely sure that God doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing. As I've said I have friends that are from many different faiths. Yes even some Buddhists. I even have one very good friend that has her own very specific belief system. She feels that we are all made of energy and that when we die that energy (soul?) is released and travels back to a reservoir where it shares and interacts with a collective intelligence. She says that is her vision of God. That is her creator. I respect her beliefs even if I don't share them. Who am I to tell her that what she believes is wrong? But to believe nothing? There is just too much evidence to the contrary for me.

"You will not cry, or whine, or laugh, or giggle, or sneeze or burp or fart!"
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post #57 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 12:23 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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"Way of the Wyrd" is an amazing book!!

This the physical plane of existence. Shamanism allows you to practice techniques that render your perception fluid (or assemblage point), so that you can take a peak at other planes of existence.

There are too many tv shows and movies that have ruined it for real witch doctors. Everyone thinks they are crazy lol.

And yeah, sacrificing is powerful ****. There are two paths in life. The left and hand path and the right hand path.

Those who separate from the divine (left) and those who merge with it. Satanaism, Atheism and Shamanism actually all belong to the left.
I'm really enjoying your posts pragmaster. And no I'm not being sarcastic. I've never been one to restrict myself to only those that share my narrow points of view. I feel like the one thing we can always do is learn and grow.

In your previous post when you talked about sorcerers the first thing that came into my mind was "The Secret." Ever heard of it?

"You will not cry, or whine, or laugh, or giggle, or sneeze or burp or fart!"
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post #58 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 12:56 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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But to be so absolutely sure that God doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing.
But to be so absolutely sure that Unicorns doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing.


Not trying to be a **** just pointing out that its the same thing.

Also, what you are describing is a gnostic atheist. There are other kinds of athiests and you don't have to be sure god does not exist to be an atheist.

You idea of proof seems to be different than what atheists would view as proof. Observable, repeatable, measurable and plausible.

For example we know of the existence of extraterrestrial planets because of their gravity signature, not because we can see them (at last not all of them). We deduce with high confidence that there is a planet there, but we also can't strictly prove that it is not a giant jelly donut that is creating the gravity well. But we find the idea of a giant jelly donut implausable and would definitely have to see that to believe it. But, and this is important, in neither cause is there a proof, there is just a high and lower level of confidence in the outcome of an empirical observation. Only an empirical observation settles the matter.
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post #59 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 01:20 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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But to be so absolutely sure that Unicorns doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing.


Not trying to be a **** just pointing out that its the same thing.

Also, what you are describing is a gnostic atheist. There are other kinds of athiests and you don't have to be sure god does not exist to be an atheist.

You idea of proof seems to be different than what atheists would view as proof. Observable, repeatable, measurable and plausible.

For example we know of the existence of extraterrestrial planets because of their gravity signature, not because we can see them (at last not all of them). We deduce with high confidence that there is a planet there, but we also can't strictly prove that it is not a giant jelly donut that is creating the gravity well. But we find the idea of a giant jelly donut implausable and would definitely have to see that to believe it. But, and this is important, in neither cause is there a proof, there is just a high and lower level of confidence in the outcome of an empirical observation. Only an empirical observation settles the matter.
I cannot with certainty categorically state that there has never been a mammal from the Equidae family that one could term a unicorn. In other words just because I've not seen one doesn't mean one never existed. Same thing goes for dragons, Bigfoot or pink bunnies. As I've aged the most important thing I've learned is that I have much to learn.

As for what level of proof I need to believe something all I need do is open my eyes and see the world. There is too much beauty for me to believe there is no intelligent purpose behind it. And I've experienced miracles in my life that I just cannot chalk up to coincidence. But we all need to make our own mind up about what we believe.

"You will not cry, or whine, or laugh, or giggle, or sneeze or burp or fart!"
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post #60 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-22-2015, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Yeah, "the secret" book/video is great! It's a different way to view Will and Intent.

Guys, chilax lol. That is the problem with the world today. People are too reasonable, lack trust, lack faith (tee hee!), and their lives are dull and lack magik.

Our mistake as men is to believe that the only perception worthy of our acknowledgement is what goes through our reason.

I will repeat this once more:

Our mistake as men is to believe that the only perception worthy of our acknowledgement is what goes through our reason.

That is shamanism 101. Breaking habits, seeking detachment, aloofness, destroying the human mold, channeling will and intent, harnessing energy, practicing lucid dreaming, connecting with inorganic beings. It's all about learning and not closing our minds to that which is not presently perceivable.
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