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post #76 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 07:21 AM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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Cancer, disease, poverty, sickness and war are all a creation by man, not God. This is another reason why I could never be an atheist. Since according to atheists there is no God they invariably focus on man. But it seems to my humble eyes that while God creates man tends to destroy. As for your fridge sized diamond, if it makes you happy who am I to burst your bubble?
It is unreal to actually hear an apologist continue to make rationalizations for their belief... Did God create everything, or didn't he? Does he have a plan, or doesn't he? Is he omniscient, or isn't he? PICK ONE AND STICK TO IT. Did he create a world, and man, knowing we'd **** it up and create all that "disease," etc...? Then he's an *******. Or did he just start the wheel and leave us all to our own devices, and he has no plan, and we're all actually operating under free will....then what is the point of a god? For him to just sit there, watch us all **** everything up, and reward the people who still believe in him, DESPITE all that mess, and DESPITE all the horrible, confusing, vague evidence, DESPITE all the OTHER gods to choose from??? It is incomprehensible to me for someone to think so irrationally to buy into any of this.

But, you know what, you're right, if YOUR belief makes you comfortable, so what, have at it? BUT THAT'S NOT HOW RELIGION WORKS. People are trying to lobby MY government that my children should be taught that "everyone has a fridge-sized diamond in their backyard," to use my metaphor. I'm sorry that I'm not sorry to say, that is INSANE thinking.

Let me put it this way, there are three possiblities: 1) Every religion is right, 2) No religion is right, and 3) only some religions are right (and each religion essentially says, only one is right). #1 is actually not possible, there are too many conflicts, they can't all be right. #3 is possible, technically, just one could be right, but - let me think - how many wars are we up to trying decide that one, with no answer still? There is absolutely no way to sift through all the stories and books and rhetoric and contradictions to decide if ONE is actually 'right.' Funny, how each religion essentially says only the dead people know for sure.

#2 could EASILY be true. EASILY. And it is the only option that logic, rationality, evidence and critical thinking supports. Religions are man made (Mormonism and Scientology are obvious modern examples; why more ancient ones, founded on less literate, less intelligent people are seen as more advanced or more likely, escapes me), gods are man made. Man created supernatural explanations for things he couldn't grasp, and in leaps and bounds, we replace those fantasies with science and intelligence. The religious are being backed into a corner holding onto "well, but science hasn't yet explained A, B, C" as their basis to believe what's left. And their apologetics. I find absolutely NO value in continuing to "have faith" in something that, outside of religion, we'd have all let go of long ago for lack of evidence.

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post #77 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 09:12 AM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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It is unreal to actually hear an apologist continue to make rationalizations for their belief... Did God create everything, or didn't he? Does he have a plan, or doesn't he? Is he omniscient, or isn't he? PICK ONE AND STICK TO IT. Did he create a world, and man, knowing we'd **** it up and create all that "disease," etc...? Then he's an *******. Or did he just start the wheel and leave us all to our own devices, and he has no plan, and we're all actually operating under free will....then what is the point of a god? For him to just sit there, watch us all **** everything up, and reward the people who still believe in him, DESPITE all that mess, and DESPITE all the horrible, confusing, vague evidence, DESPITE all the OTHER gods to choose from??? It is incomprehensible to me for someone to think so irrationally to buy into any of this.

But, you know what, you're right, if YOUR belief makes you comfortable, so what, have at it? BUT THAT'S NOT HOW RELIGION WORKS. People are trying to lobby MY government that my children should be taught that "everyone has a fridge-sized diamond in their backyard," to use my metaphor. I'm sorry that I'm not sorry to say, that is INSANE thinking.

Let me put it this way, there are three possiblities: 1) Every religion is right, 2) No religion is right, and 3) only some religions are right (and each religion essentially says, only one is right). #1 is actually not possible, there are too many conflicts, they can't all be right. #3 is possible, technically, just one could be right, but - let me think - how many wars are we up to trying decide that one, with no answer still? There is absolutely no way to sift through all the stories and books and rhetoric and contradictions to decide if ONE is actually 'right.' Funny, how each religion essentially says only the dead people know for sure.

#2 could EASILY be true. EASILY. And it is the only option that logic, rationality, evidence and critical thinking supports. Religions are man made (Mormonism and Scientology are obvious modern examples; why more ancient ones, founded on less literate, less intelligent people are seen as more advanced or more likely, escapes me), gods are man made. Man created supernatural explanations for things he couldn't grasp, and in leaps and bounds, we replace those fantasies with science and intelligence. The religious are being backed into a corner holding onto "well, but science hasn't yet explained A, B, C" as their basis to believe what's left. And their apologetics. I find absolutely NO value in continuing to "have faith" in something that, outside of religion, we'd have all let go of long ago for lack of evidence.
You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that all those who profess a belief in Christianity believe exactly the same. I do believe that God is present in our lives, can answer prayers and will perform miracles (limited and usually dispensed in the form of divine knowledge and guidance.) I do not believe that He is a micro-manager. In His infinite wisdom God gave us free will. We use that will to conduct our lives and to, as you so eloquently put it, **** things up (on occasion.) If you must categorize and label me I guess you could call me a modified deist. Look it up if you desire.

As for which religion is "right" I have a 4th choice for you. They all are. I believe all religions are essentially focused on the exact same thing but in differing ways. All religions are searching for meaning, for a purpose, for a creator. All religions have settled on their own particular belief structures. And all religions have at least one and in my opinion usually several aspects of the entire whole. In my way of thinking each religion has a piece of the whole truth. Since we as humans are not (yet) capable of understanding the entire truth God has revealed parts of the truth to various groups. Someday if we don't destroy ourselves maybe we will eventually be able to put it all together and maybe then you will have the "proof" you seek.

For what it's worth I don't really subscribe to any particular organized dogma or doctrine. I agree with you that most if not all organized religions suffer due to man's influence. Hopefully one day this will also be revealed and rectified.

ETA: I also agree with you that it is reprehensible for anyone to force their beliefs on anyone else. I would stand side by side with you in protest of that action. In addition to my deist beliefs I am also a libertarian. It kind of goes well together if you ask me.

"You will not cry, or whine, or laugh, or giggle, or sneeze or burp or fart!"

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post #78 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 12:24 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Your 4th choice was my 1st choice. ?? Don't backdoor the argument with some philosophical loophole. I get that every religion THINKS it's being moral, thinks it's guiding its people toward a good life, and usually an afterlife, as well. I'm not talking about the common threads of religion that may be a societal benefit (as an aside: I maintain any religion's benefit can be achieved secularly).

My point is, NO religion preaches tolerance for another. If you are a Muslim, you believe Christians don't get the virgins. If you're a Christian, the Muslims are going to hell. The Christians think the Muslims have it wrong. The Muslims think the Christians have it wrong, and on and on. Under the inherent tenets of any one religion, the others "have it wrong." Simple as that.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that one HAS to be right. Sure, there are people who hope there is, I get it, an afterlife, paradise, trying to make sense of suffering, etc..., just making up this all powerful being who's looking out for you, has a plan for you, has a mansion in the sky waiting for you....it all gives off a highly optimistic aura. That doesn't make it true. I would love to believe that one day, I will hit the lottery. It would make me feel so much better about my life, about my future, if I KNEW it would happen one day, if I believed it. That doesn't mean it will happen, and I would certainly have no evidence to provide in its favor, either. Even if I played 100 tickets every week, my odds would be astronomical, but can you imagine if I walked around, talking with certainty every day, about what I was going to do with my winnings? What if I actually started spending the money I have now, going broke, because "one day my millions are coming, so it's not a problem"? We have to operate on evidence and good reason for our beliefs, IMHO, and belief in a god simply doesn't coincide with that mindset.
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post #79 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Guys...take the debate elsewhere lol.

For the record, cancer and diseases are actually caused by energies that have not been cleared from a persons aura. This is often why cancer comes back, because the energy was not cleared. It's quite simple. Usually the spot of disease is where the negative energy came in. You can treat the physical body all you want but we are souls before anything, so one must correct the auric fields first.

Those who disprove souls are just blind idiots. Enjoy rotting in the ground because if that is what you believe that is where you shall be.

I just told you guys the secrets of the universe, immortal consciousness. Your loss if you don't agree. You'll find out when you die the hard way like most humans. Tough luck. Life after life after life until you finally see. This is the difference between shamanism and everything else. We are patient because we know that our evolution is individual before collective. Muslims,Catholics, Christians...all that stuff is great for raising your vibration and practicing love, but the moment you are not living in full unconditional love, well, that is when you lose. It doesn't matter what you study or believe. Shut up and love!

Never allow yourself to live in revulsion.

Evolve from this physical plane. There is much more that meets the eye. Much more than just God. You are God. You need to drill that in your head until you can look at a building and watch it crumble. Your eyes can do more then what you were taught!!

Study Thelema. Study Castaneda. Open your third eye. Talk is cheap. Thought is limiting. Transcend your fears! Transcend reason! Live a life of faith and love and you shall never go hungry.

Yap yap yap

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post #80 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 01:58 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Buncha weirdos...
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post #81 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 03:02 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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Your 4th choice was my 1st choice. ?? Don't backdoor the argument with some philosophical loophole. I get that every religion THINKS it's being moral, thinks it's guiding its people toward a good life, and usually an afterlife, as well. I'm not talking about the common threads of religion that may be a societal benefit (as an aside: I maintain any religion's benefit can be achieved secularly).

My point is, NO religion preaches tolerance for another. If you are a Muslim, you believe Christians don't get the virgins. If you're a Christian, the Muslims are going to hell. The Christians think the Muslims have it wrong. The Muslims think the Christians have it wrong, and on and on. Under the inherent tenets of any one religion, the others "have it wrong." Simple as that.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that one HAS to be right. Sure, there are people who hope there is, I get it, an afterlife, paradise, trying to make sense of suffering, etc..., just making up this all powerful being who's looking out for you, has a plan for you, has a mansion in the sky waiting for you....it all gives off a highly optimistic aura. That doesn't make it true. I would love to believe that one day, I will hit the lottery. It would make me feel so much better about my life, about my future, if I KNEW it would happen one day, if I believed it. That doesn't mean it will happen, and I would certainly have no evidence to provide in its favor, either. Even if I played 100 tickets every week, my odds would be astronomical, but can you imagine if I walked around, talking with certainty every day, about what I was going to do with my winnings? What if I actually started spending the money I have now, going broke, because "one day my millions are coming, so it's not a problem"? We have to operate on evidence and good reason for our beliefs, IMHO, and belief in a god simply doesn't coincide with that mindset.
All the points you have made do not invalidate a belief in God. They just show a distaste and distrust of organized religion, a viewpoint I share with you btw. I am sure my pagan friends in this thread will correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that many pagans choose to join large churches or temples, others gravitate more toward smaller groups or covens, still others choose to practice solitary. All are acceptable as long as that spiritual connection can be achieved. I feel similarly. I don't need to embrace any particular doctrine, I don't have to pray with any certain group, I don't need to travel to any specific building to have a spiritual connection with God. As I've mentioned before I know several atheists and they are the most moral honorable people I know. Religion doesn't have anything to do with morality. I've also known many "religious" people that I would have a hard time trusting. And in regards to heaven/hell, that is not my reason for believing in God. In fact it really never enters my mind. Do you know that there are many religions that do not espouse an afterlife? I cherish my relationship with God right here, right now and feel very strongly that my spiritual relationship with Him strengthens and enhances my relationships with my wife and children. Now how can that be a bad thing?

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post #82 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 03:05 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Sorry pragmaster, I'll check out now.

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post #83 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

Don't be sorry man.

There is no right answer, because you are God, as I am. It's extremely simple and yet extremely powerful. This is the truth. Every single human on earth is a master sorcerer and 99% do not know it. They believe in a higher power, when in reality, that higher power is your higher self.

Atheists/Scientologists take this too literally (they are too reasonable) and get upset because they think it means you can kill people and get away with crazy stuff (borderline nihilism). Actually you can, but there is karma, but it's also not the point.

Christians/Catholics/Muslims usually disagree because they have witnessed the holy (but remember, the world is a reflection of ourselves). The beauty we see in others is the beauty we see in ourselves, and same goes for fear and negativity. The people that claim to be "good" yet judge the world for "evil" are truly twisted, sad individuals. There is no point in talking to these people. Don't worry about em'.

Hindu's, Buddhists, Witches, Sorcerers, Satanists and Thelemists usually know where it's at! No need to hide anything .

Namaste means I bow to you. Thank you for your time!

And btw, heaven and hell are real dimensions for those who wish to go there, but absolute freedom... now that's what interests me.
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post #84 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-27-2015, 05:55 PM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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Don't be sorry man.

There is no right answer, because you are God, as I am. It's extremely simple and yet extremely powerful. This is the truth. Every single human on earth is a master sorcerer and 99% do not know it. They believe in a higher power, when in reality, that higher power is your higher self.

Atheists/Scientologists take this too literally (they are too reasonable) and get upset because they think it means you can kill people and get away with crazy stuff (borderline nihilism). Actually you can, but there is karma, but it's also not the point.

Christians/Catholics/Muslims usually disagree because they have witnessed the holy (but remember, the world is a reflection of ourselves). The beauty we see in others is the beauty we see in ourselves, and same goes for fear and negativity. The people that claim to be "good" yet judge the world for "evil" are truly twisted, sad individuals. There is no point in talking to these people. Don't worry about em'.

Hindu's, Buddhists, Witches, Sorcerers, Satanists and Thelemists usually know where it's at! No need to hide anything .

Namaste means I bow to you. Thank you for your time!

And btw, heaven and hell are real dimensions for those who wish to go there, but absolute freedom... now that's what interests me.
I think I have a very open mind about things and I'd certainly like much of what you said to be true, and I think the redemption message of Christianity is also very compelling. In fact, having read the Bates book (twice) I am probably the 2nd most knowledgable person on Shamanism in this thread. It is all very compelling but then so is Tolkien's Middle Earth creation story where the world is brought into creating with music from god--just in comparison.

But these are all just stories to me and I find no connection nor do I experience any truth with them. While you find some connection with the metaphysical and others find some sort to ecstasy with their relationship with a particular incarnation of god, I have none of that. Maybe it is that I am virtually devoid any intuition and reason is all I have, and it objectively demonstrates truth consistently and repeatably even if falling well short of complete understanding of the universe. If a god did make me, he must have known he was building me with absolutely no knowledge or of him or faculty to perceive him.
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post #85 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 07:27 AM
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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For the record, cancer and diseases are actually caused by energies that have not been cleared from a persons aura. This is often why cancer comes back, because the energy was not cleared. It's quite simple. Usually the spot of disease is where the negative energy came in. You can treat the physical body all you want but we are souls before anything, so one must correct the auric fields first.

Those who disprove souls are just blind idiots. Enjoy rotting in the ground because if that is what you believe that is where you shall be.

I just told you guys the secrets of the universe, immortal consciousness. Your loss if you don't agree. You'll find out when you die the hard way like most humans. Tough luck. Life after life after life until you finally see. This is the difference between shamanism and everything else. We are patient because we know that our evolution is individual before collective. Muslims,Catholics, Christians...all that stuff is great for raising your vibration and practicing love, but the moment you are not living in full unconditional love, well, that is when you lose. It doesn't matter what you study or believe. Shut up and love!

Never allow yourself to live in revulsion.

Evolve from this physical plane. There is much more that meets the eye. Much more than just God. You are God. You need to drill that in your head until you can look at a building and watch it crumble. Your eyes can do more then what you were taught!!

Study Thelema. Study Castaneda. Open your third eye. Talk is cheap. Thought is limiting. Transcend your fears! Transcend reason! Live a life of faith and love and you shall never go hungry.

Yap yap yap
Are you a Poe? If not....seriously, you CANNOT actually believe all of that, can you!?!!? Why aren't you out there curing cancer with your "auric cleanses"!?! Can you back up even one OUNCE of ANY of that? And threats of "you'll find out" are cheap, charlatan shots that seek only to invoke and take mean advantage of a person's natural doubt, uncertainty and often fear of the unknown, i.e., after our death. To purport that YOU have figured out the 'answer' and won't have to 'rot in the ground' is arrogant, and patently false as well.

To paraphrase Sam Harris, to say you can't imagine what it will be like after you die, is really just from lack of trying. Right now, the vast majority of the world's humans are functioning in complete ignorance of my existence, and after I die, they'll continue to do the same. You, me, everyone will simply cease to exist one day, yes, and our bodies will decompose or be cremated and that's it. All the more reason not to waste time on this utter woo-woo and nonsense and simply make the most of this ONE life we have, here and now. If you think you know any different, PROVE IT.

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post #86 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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I think I have a very open mind about things and I'd certainly like much of what you said to be true, and I think the redemption message of Christianity is also very compelling. In fact, having read the Bates book (twice) I am probably the 2nd most knowledgable person on Shamanism in this thread. It is all very compelling but then so is Tolkien's Middle Earth creation story where the world is brought into creating with music from god--just in comparison.

But these are all just stories to me and I find no connection nor do I experience any truth with them. While you find some connection with the metaphysical and others find some sort to ecstasy with their relationship with a particular incarnation of god, I have none of that. Maybe it is that I am virtually devoid any intuition and reason is all I have, and it objectively demonstrates truth consistently and repeatably even if falling well short of complete understanding of the universe. If a god did make me, he must have known he was building me with absolutely no knowledge or of him or faculty to perceive him.
That's cool man. Nah, you just need to go do Ayahuasca, Salvia or DMT.

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post #87 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

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Are you a Poe? If not....seriously, you CANNOT actually believe all of that, can you!?!!? Why aren't you out there curing cancer with your "auric cleanses"!?! Can you back up even one OUNCE of ANY of that? And threats of "you'll find out" are cheap, charlatan shots that seek only to invoke and take mean advantage of a person's natural doubt, uncertainty and often fear of the unknown, i.e., after our death. To purport that YOU have figured out the 'answer' and won't have to 'rot in the ground' is arrogant, and patently false as well.

To paraphrase Sam Harris, to say you can't imagine what it will be like after you die, is really just from lack of trying. Right now, the vast majority of the world's humans are functioning in complete ignorance of my existence, and after I die, they'll continue to do the same. You, me, everyone will simply cease to exist one day, yes, and our bodies will decompose or be cremated and that's it. All the more reason not to waste time on this utter woo-woo and nonsense and simply make the most of this ONE life we have, here and now. If you think you know any different, PROVE IT.
What does POE mean? I believe everything and yet I believe nothing, which is often hypocritical and non-nonsensical. I say this and yet do that. I live in accordance to faith, or my "gut feeling". "Do as though wilt shall be the whole of the law, love under will." It's a good thing and it's gotten me very far in life.

When you die, so goes your reason. So to become thoughtless prior to death allows one to observe the shift in consciousness, and possibly take control if they have mastered their lucidity...of course they cannot indulge in fear or pain like 99.9% of people. One must be calm as a turtle. Seems to me regardless that if there is even a 0.00000001% chance to gain immortal consciousness that it is worth seeking.

Tons of books out there dude but again they are just books: Rumi, Drunvalo, Michael Talbot, Gurdjieff, the Kabalah, Lord of the left hand path, The Augura V1-V3, The Mahabharata, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Way of Wyrd, Carlos Castaneda, Encyclopedia Britannica, Carl Sagan, etc...

I heal those who come to me. I don't need to prove anything to anyone but myself. Yes I can back up the facts, but are you willing to jump off the cliff? I have a network of shamans and we have helped all sorts of people; cancer & aids in particular. The problem with cancer though, is that while I said it's caused by the energy, I meant that, but it is also caused by air pollution (chem trails), lack of clean water, lack of ionized water (no energy in the water) and pesticides. Clearing the energy helps clear the "woe is me, self-pity" mentality that is the real plague. Most people are totally unaware that there is a negative force that has invaded human consciousness since our creation. They are called the flyers but there are many many names for these silly little things, that feed off of our negative ego. Dude I shouldn't even be telling you this stuff haha. My teacher might not be happy, but that's okay. I feel like it's time talk.

Oh heck ya it's arrogant as hell ha ha.

And yes your right, you can't imagine. But you can take ayahuasca, dmt or salvia, which will give you a near death experience. A chemical in your brain is released when you are born and when you die (this has been proven), and when you take these substances, the chemical is released, giving you a momentary out-of-body experience IN REAL TIME. You can do things and prove them to yourself, such as flying somewhere, into someone's house with your astral body, noticing the placement of things, and then after your experience (or meditation for the masters), come out, go check that spot and see if you really are full of crap.

Again, most people indulge in fears come go time. All I aim for is to destroy fear, eliminate thought, raise the vibration to reach higher forms of consciousness, and love, love love.

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post #88 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

When I was younger I had a friend who told me how he remembered dying in his past life and I guess you could say it had a big influence on me. He had night terrors all his childhood. They ended up bringing him to a psychologist and he was perfectly fine in the end.

My friend knew of details of things that it was impossible he learned at that age. Things like knowing all of the controls on a plane, how to make bombs and other advanced military knowledge.

He drew alot of the stuff with ridiculous accuracy. His parents ended up going nuts because they couldn't believe that their little boy had died in WW2 and reincarnated.

Believe it or not. I don't care. Everyone's got their perspective and reasoning for that perspective. I've read and heard of many such stories too after the fact.
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post #89 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships

And that is why I don't date Christians/Catholics or Muslims.

Lol
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