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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
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change

so, i have seen it written and heard it a million times: people dont really change.

everyone seems so convinced of it. and to be honest, i used to be convinced of it as well. people never really change.

but, something happened that shocked the ever living FVK out of me. without boring people with the details, i experienced something that forced me to accept the reality of the fact that nobody knows what i am thinking and feeling. that people are completely, 100%, incapable of it.
of course, i had to accept the fact that i could never hope to know what is going on in someone else's head either. i could not cling to my old way of thinking. it was such a shocking and traumatic experience for me that i couldnt bring myself to think that i really knew what someone else was thinking or feeling.

i always looked back at my own experience. it forced me to accept that since i dont really know, since i CANT really know, i have to ask. and i have to accept their answer as truth, even though i know that they could be lying to me. and if they were lying to me, i had to accept that i have no idea why. i had to accept that they have a legitimate reason. they had a fear that was stronger than they knew how to handle.

knowing that they cannot know what I am feeling or thinking, and knowing how sure i was about everyone else before i was b!tch slapped into reality, i couldnt hold it against them. i simply couldnt. i knew they had their own histories and stories that led them to think and act the way they do. i cant hold someones history against them.

the other night my wife freaked out a bit. she was feeling insecure. she attacked me verbally for about ten minutes. after listening to her, i raised my voice, the way i would if i were angry. but, within a few words, i dropped my tone and told her what i really thought about our conflict: i told her that if she really knew what was in my heart for her, she would melt. because the truth was, i was never angry with her. i wanted to hold her close and let her know that she was loved. i told her that if she REALLY knew what i felt, she would melt. she would feel incredibly loved. because i felt nothing but love for her. i let her know that i fully accept that sometimes i have to redirect her focus sometimes. because sometimes she focuses on her own demons too much. after that, she told me what was really bothering her. i loved it. all of it. she is growing. she is changing. and its beautiful to see. she is becoming so much more than she ever thought possible.


so, i have to say, i think i get what "death to self" is all about. its about awareness. acceptance of what is. and of course, you cannot accept what you are not aware of. it got me thinking about bible verses. i mean, what does it mean to hate your brother or sister, mother and father? i dont think it means to hate the person, the who. i think it means to hate the judgement of WHO they are. i mean, at any point, my mother could change in the same way i do, and she would be a different person. she could at any point decide to betray me as well. if she did, and i loved the title of mother, i would be crushed. but, if i hate the title, because it is a title, i will always love her. i will not judge her for what she does, i will just love her because she is a person, and because i love people. so, if my mother does something that shocks me, ill just accept that i did not know her. if i love my mother, and she stops acting like my mother one day, ill be distraught. if i love her simply because she is a person and i can love her, then nothing she does will ever rock me. nor will it stop me from loving her.

this is how i love my wife. if she does something out of the blue, i accept the fact that i did not know who she was. i know WHAT she is. she is a person who is just as clueless as me. but, she chooses who she is, even if she doesnt realize it. i love WHAT she is, not who she is. i will never love anyone for who they are ever again. i will be proud of them for who they choose to be, but i will never love them for WHO they are. i will love them because they are. which is the same as loving myself for what i am.

if you have read this far, i applaud you. if you have any questions for me, ask away. my only question for you is this: do you love people, including your spouse, for who they are, or for what they are?


"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 10:38 PM
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Re: change

You're smoking the wacksy tobaccky?

I love people for who they are. if they mess up, I forgive them. if they show me they don't care about me and have no respect for me, I stop loving them in certain ways.

What you're saying is nonsensical to me. It is ok to stop loving someone if they show you they are unworthy of that love. One may choose to love as a Christian, but not as a special kind of love one has for their "family".
But enjoy your profound new way of thinking.....
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 10:54 PM
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Re: change

Who they are is how they internally see themselves... what they are is how others around them see them.

Therefore I love what my wife what has been and currently is, what she will be is yet unknown but that choice to be there with her as she becomes it is mine alone to make.

I know I like who I am today much better than who I was 20 years ago, but then I was oblivious to the person I was then. What I was, was what I was supposed to be.

At times, you feel you have little control over what you are but once you realize the power you do have, the who takes over and the choice of who you are comes to the forefront.

And choices rule...
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 11:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: change

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Originally Posted by Evinrude58 View Post
You're smoking the wacksy tobaccky?

I love people for who they are. if they mess up, I forgive them. if they show me they don't care about me and have no respect for me, I stop loving them in certain ways.

What you're saying is nonsensical to me. It is ok to stop loving someone if they show you they are unworthy of that love. One may choose to love as a Christian, but not as a special kind of love one has for their "family".
But enjoy your profound new way of thinking.....
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lol, im not smoking anything. im just done with judging people, or hating them.

is it really ok to stop loving someone for any reason? if your child did something that offended you, because they are young and ignorant, would you hate them?

if your parents did something that hurt you because of their own ignorance, is it ok for you to stop loving them as people? does it even make any sense to stop loving them?

from where i sit, it seems like putting them in a box. they must be such and such, and act in such and such a way, before i will love them.

just doesnt seem right to me.

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: change

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Originally Posted by Emerging Buddhist View Post
Who they are is how they internally see themselves... what they are is how others around them see them.

Therefore I love what my wife what has been and currently is, what she will be is yet unknown but that choice to be there with her as she becomes it is mine alone to make.

I know I like who I am today much better than who I was 20 years ago, but then I was oblivious to the person I was then. What I was, was what I was supposed to be.

At times, you feel you have little control over what you are but once you realize the power you do have, the who takes over and the choice of who you are comes to the forefront.

And choices rule...
what you were was what you were. if you really have the freedom to make any choice at any second, then how can you say that you were "supposed" to be anything? it was not predestined. it just was.

why would you be able to accept "destiny" and not accept reality? im not sure i am understanding you correctly... i take that back... i am completely certain i do not understand you correctly. lol

do you get to choose who you are?

"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 01:10 AM
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Re: change

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
what you were was what you were. if you really have the freedom to make any choice at any second, then how can you say that you were "supposed" to be anything? it was not predestined. it just was.

why would you be able to accept "destiny" and not accept reality? im not sure i am understanding you correctly... i take that back... i am completely certain i do not understand you correctly. lol

do you get to choose who you are?
There are times when we willingly place ourselves into the mold of someone else's control. The how and why at the time is not always relevant to the outcome as the molding shapes our perceptions and actions. This is not predestination, but destination of the present and I was to be exactly what I was and what was wanted of me to be.

The military does this, often religion does too.

Reality is the present... destiny is what you do with the present and in the essence, your choices do make you.

I do my best to not judge others without putting myself through the paces first, and I find a more compassionate measurement by doing so.

Last edited by Emerging Buddhist; 08-19-2016 at 01:16 AM.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 01:05 PM
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Re: change

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Originally Posted by As'laDain View Post
the other night my wife freaked out a bit. she was feeling insecure. she attacked me verbally for about ten minutes. after listening to her, i raised my voice, the way i would if i were angry. but, within a few words, i dropped my tone and told her what i really thought about our conflict: i told her that if she really knew what was in my heart for her, she would melt. because the truth was, i was never angry with her. i wanted to hold her close and let her know that she was loved. i told her that if she REALLY knew what i felt, she would melt. she would feel incredibly loved. because i felt nothing but love for her. i let her know that i fully accept that sometimes i have to redirect her focus sometimes. because sometimes she focuses on her own demons too much. after that, she told me what was really bothering her. i loved it. all of it. she is growing. she is changing. and its beautiful to see. she is becoming so much more than she ever thought possible.
The only way I could FEEL like you did here ...with someone verbally attacking me for 10 minutes ...is if I did something to deserve that (I try to be very self aware & well I'm not perfect & can pi$$ people off now & then....I'll eat some crow for that -willingly)..

However, If this was a regular diet of our relationship where I didn't deserve it.. there is no way in the world I would be feeling as you do..

That would not be working for me.. I do not love like this.. if this means I haven't attained the Jesus realm, of loving unconditionally.... I guess I'll have to die and be reborn into a snail...

I'm kinda with @Evinrude58 on this one when he said "I love people for who they are. if they mess up, I forgive them. if they show me they don't care about me and have no respect for me, I stop loving them in certain ways." I'd also add I may decide to disconnect myself from their life -depends on the offense(s). I'd prefer to surround myself with people who appreciate me & bring out the best in me.. and I can in them... Sometimes you gotta "put up" with family.. but friends & a partner.. that's different..

Last edited by SimplyAmorous; 08-27-2016 at 01:09 PM.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: change

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The only way I could FEEL like you did here ...with someone verbally attacking me for 10 minutes ...is if I did something to deserve that (I try to be very self aware & well I'm not perfect & can pi$$ people off now & then....I'll eat some crow for that -willingly)..

However, If this was a regular diet of our relationship where I didn't deserve it.. there is no way in the world I would be feeling as you do..

That would not be working for me.. I do not love like this.. if this means I haven't attained the Jesus realm, of loving unconditionally.... I guess I'll have to die and be reborn into a snail...

I'm kinda with @Evinrude58 on this one when he said "I love people for who they are. if they mess up, I forgive them. if they show me they don't care about me and have no respect for me, I stop loving them in certain ways." I'd also add I may decide to disconnect myself from their life -depends on the offense(s). I'd prefer to surround myself with people who appreciate me & bring out the best in me.. and I can in them... Sometimes you gotta "put up" with family.. but friends & a partner.. that's different..
I really don't have a good way of explaining it, but I'll try.

Basically, it's like I have an imaginary friend. In order for this friend to be of any help to me, I have to mentally maintain the idea that the friend is watching both of us amd has insight that I may have missed. So, I ask this third party observer imaginary friend what he thinks the issue is. He always tells me that my wife does not know what my true feelings are for her, or what I am actually thinking. She only knows what she sees, thinks, and feels. So I accept that she is doing it out of ignorance. If she really knew, she wouldn't be scared or angry. She would feel loved. I don't accept blame for her feelings, nor do I blame her.

Just for clarification, I don't actually have an imaginary friend. It's just a difficult concept to explain.

Another way to imagine it is to imagine that one day your husband had some super powerful virtual reality goggles grafted to his face, that he didn't know we're there. They distorted his perception of reality without his knowledge, but you can see them clear as day. You see him responding to the illusions. You KNOW that he has no idea that what he is seeing is not real.

How do you feel about him?
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"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-28-2016, 02:13 PM
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Re: change

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I really don't have a good way of explaining it, but I'll try.

Basically, it's like I have an imaginary friend. In order for this friend to be of any help to me, I have to mentally maintain the idea that the friend is watching both of us amd has insight that I may have missed. So, I ask this third party observer imaginary friend what he thinks the issue is. He always tells me that my wife does not know what my true feelings are for her, or what I am actually thinking. She only knows what she sees, thinks, and feels. So I accept that she is doing it out of ignorance. If she really knew, she wouldn't be scared or angry. She would feel loved. I don't accept blame for her feelings, nor do I blame her.

Just for clarification, I don't actually have an imaginary friend. It's just a difficult concept to explain.

Another way to imagine it is to imagine that one day your husband had some super powerful virtual reality goggles grafted to his face, that he didn't know we're there. They distorted his perception of reality without his knowledge, but you can see them clear as day. You see him responding to the illusions. You KNOW that he has no idea that what he is seeing is not real.

How do you feel about him?
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I see what you are saying here @As'laDain ..I believe I do...I think...but I personally would not be happy or content with living as such.. I'll try to explain Why..

If I had a partner this clueless to my articulate "well thought out" expressive communication- about how I feel.. what I want.. also seeking to understand him....if he can't grasp it.. it bringing us closer towards understanding, a mutual shared Love, feeling it -expressing it himself towards me .... I'd want to bang my head against the wall so hard.. I'd be better off to leave such a relationship..

I'd feel as though the other had a brain disorder if they couldn't understand my intent... whether good or bad.. so if this couldn't bring us that Understanding, clarification ... again the frustration would be insurmountable to me...

Because I KNOW I could find just that with another healthy minded individual.

I understand we all have our demons.. we all have a shadow we may peer looking into even (deep subject there) but at the end of the day.. being a Realist is important to me.. I wouldn't trust my imagination's imaginary friend to know ANYTHING more than I did..

It seems you seek to attain some sphere where no matter what she says or does to you.. you can continue to see her in a good light.. accepting, loving...you have it in you to withhold Judgement & continue on -at any cost...

I gotta say.. you are one Dedicated man to your woman though !!
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-28-2016, 10:01 PM
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Re: change

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Originally Posted by As'laDain
I'm just done with judging people, or hating them.

From where I sit, it seems like putting them in a box. they must be such and such, and act in such and such a way, before i will love them.

This just doesn't seem right to me.
Congratulations.

THIS is the Epiphany that few men/women attain.

It is also a mindset difficult to sustain.

Life has a way of pulling you back to old ways, common ways.

Maturity is the foil that resists this mental recidivism, going back to old biases, tribalism and hatred for others.

Being wise is a gift and never a given.


This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-28-2016, 10:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: change

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I see what you are saying here @As'laDain ..I believe I do...I think...but I personally would not be happy or content with living as such.. I'll try to explain Why..

If I had a partner this clueless to my articulate "well thought out" expressive communication- about how I feel.. what I want.. also seeking to understand him....if he can't grasp it.. it bringing us closer towards understanding, a mutual shared Love, feeling it -expressing it himself towards me .... I'd want to bang my head against the wall so hard.. I'd be better off to leave such a relationship..

I'd feel as though the other had a brain disorder if they couldn't understand my intent... whether good or bad.. so if this couldn't bring us that Understanding, clarification ... again the frustration would be insurmountable to me...

Because I KNOW I could find just that with another healthy minded individual.

I understand we all have our demons.. we all have a shadow we may peer looking into even (deep subject there) but at the end of the day.. being a Realist is important to me.. I wouldn't trust my imagination's imaginary friend to know ANYTHING more than I did..

It seems you seek to attain some sphere where no matter what she says or does to you.. you can continue to see her in a good light.. accepting, loving...you have it in you to withhold Judgement & continue on -at any cost...

I gotta say.. you are one Dedicated man to your woman though !!
Lol, what's funny is that as time goes on, she is doing it too! She is changing in the same way, getting better able to handle people's issues and has been, in turn, influencing others to grow as well.

So, it's not a permanent issue. I'm pretty sure I will see the day that my wife doesn't trigger from any old demons at all. If the rate at which she has grown emotionally is any indicator, I doubt she will have those moments at all within the next couple of years. Back when we first got married, she could go on attacking me for days on end, and would even follow me around to chase after me so that I could not escape her attack.

Yeah, it's unconditional love. That doesn't mean I am always happy with her. But, even when I am not, even if she does something that hurts me, I can still see the pain amd the fear. I still want to see her feel and express joy. I know that she hates after she lashes out, so I actively discourage her lashing out. So that she doesn't feel the shame afterwards. I would rather see her feeling the temporary pain of discipline and consequence than see her feeling the deep rooted pain of self loathing.

We love our children that way. Very few of us are willing to change ourselves to be able to love an adult that way. I wasnt. One day, I lost everything though, or so I had thought. I realized that the self is nothing so precious that it can't be lost. In order to become something different, I just have to let the old self go. And never look back.

I can't believe it's possible for my wife to change if I do not KNOW that i can change.
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