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post #31 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 06:46 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
I have been contemplating suicide for a year or so now. It's not something I want to do now, but I could see doing it when I'm about 60. I look at my future and it's a bleak outlook. I have been burned too many times in relationships so I do not see myself marrying or sharing a life with anyone again. I am done with women and dating....just done with it. But there are also other considerations that have been leading me towards this.

I lost my retirement when the market crashed in 2008. I have tried to build it back up but I just don't have the extra money. I pay for all my own medical insurance and I just cannot seem to get my retirement nest egg growing at the rate it needs to be. Day to day expenses for a single guy are high nowadays. I just don't see myself having any decent standard of living if I ever retire, which seems like less and less of a possibility.

I try to stay healthy and I excercise every day, but I am pretty sure I have onset arthritis. I am in pain every day with my feet and back. I wear orthotics but they don't help much. I have herniated disks, bad knees....I'm a mess skeleton wise. I am doing stretching every day, which helps a lot, but I cannot seem to get to where I feel any better. I've tried multivitamins, holistic foods, antioxidants...nothing seems to help. I see myself being pretty much stoved up completely by the time I'm 60.

My penis hasn't made an appearance in years. I see beautiful women everywhere and...nothing.

I've been examined for depression and the psychologist tells me I'm fine. I don't feel depressed...but I just don't have any high hopes for any kind of happy future or retirement. I see pain and loneliness in my future.

The only social activity I engage in is with my AA group, and hanging out with confused male alcoholics is not the most fulfilling way to spend evenings. They are good men, but my God they are messed up.

So I have been thinking about setting a term of limitation on my life. I don't really want to get old and have to have people take care of me. I have visited rest homes and...no way. Just no. I'm not spending my declining years wearing depends and eating lime jello.

I have been on a slew of Christian sites. Most say that suicide for born-again Christians like myself does not end up as a one way ticket to hell, but they do say it is a huge sin. I wonder what others here think. I know what the Catholics here will say, but I'd like perspectives from other mainstream Christains, Mormons and other religions.
Oh sh!t. Do not go down this selfish road.

Here is what I know.....you are born and you die. Death is a given. You are going to die. The when and the where should not be at your hands. Why bother? God will deliver the shot between the eyes. HE will not overlook you.

Here is THE THING. You will be here, just once, in your present configuration and mindset.

You know what the past has brought you. You do not know the future. Some of your past sucks. some of it does not. Who gives a crap about money?

On a good clear night....go out onto a large expanse or prairie. Lay on a mat and look at the Stars. See how small you are? And yet, you can think and ponder and bitc# about life. What is more Great then that.

I am much older than you. I am having serious, serious health issues myself....this year. I WILL recover. Not to a healthy 20 year old buck. Nor a Shmuck.

Given the choice, I would rather have life, then money or a hard d!ck. Let GOD do HIS job. He will cut you down in your tracks. Let the old GUY have HIS DUE.

Keep in mind.....modern medicine advances faster every year. Last years hopeless are next years miracles.

I recommend going to VA's burn centers or Shriners Hospital. See what those folks endure. It will give you perspective.

We are here for you...we are hear...ing YOU.


This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #32 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 06:50 PM
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Cool Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

@GTdad is correct! Those are the only avenues to eternal damnation for for a born again Christian!

Having said that, it is a sin of magnanimous proportions that the Heavenly Father and the person committing the suicide will spend a lot of time together over!

As a fellow member of the Christian community(United Methodist), I do not want to see anyone try to achieve those ends, because our Heavenly Fathers loves all of His individual creations beyond sheer compassion.

If you ever have these feelings again, get with relatives or close friends to attempt to counter them!

Always remember, Bandito, God loves you, and so do I!

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post #33 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 06:58 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

For me?

I will die...but whoever/whatever kills me will do so with effort....one limb at a time.

Unless my brain dies first....then I am.....AM NOT.

Lust for Life.....

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #34 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 07:10 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

My brother has a plan he hashed out a decade ago: when he senses that he is reaching the end of his ability to be productive, the end of his usefulness, he will go hunt a bear with a spear. If he lives, he will go back and brag about it and then attempt it with a knife.

If he succeeds again, he will decide that is not over.

Bandit, your attitude towards life throws away all of the things that you could still do, even when old and alone. All of the life you could still enjoy would, in your view of your own old age, be missed. It would not be missed because of your impending death, it would be missed because you simply ignored it. All of the beautiful things that are going on around you are being missed because of the negative things you pay attention to.

Why would you be worried about the afterlife in a situation where you are not enjoying THIS life? You want to know what lasts forever? As far as you know, it's everything you experience.

Do you know anything about heaven or hell? Has anyone been there? Even if they had, is there any way for you to really know that they are not lying, delusional, or crazy?

You want to know what he'll on earth is? Think about this... what if you went through life missing all of its beauty and splendor because of something as stupid as not knowing they are there? What if you reach the end of your life and suddenly realized that you wasted a lifetime staring at the shadows on the wall instead of turning around and seeing the way out of the cave?

What if you never turned around at all? What if you lived your whole life thinking that the world was nothing but shadows? Wouldn't that be a terrible life? Would there be any salvation for you? How would you be able to fathom the beautiful love of all that life has to offer if you die without ever seeing any of it?

Think about something... what causes people to sin? What causes people to hurt each other? If they felt the emotions that their actions elicit in others, do you think they would be able to bring themselves to do it? If a cheating spouse knew the very feelings of pain and betrayal they would cause, if they felt it as they caused them, would they do it? Who wants that kind of pain?

The truth is, we cannot feel what others feel. We feel what WE feel. And ONLY what we feel. For each and every one of us, the world only exists for us. Take us out of the world and we have no grief from it. We have no joy from it. Take us out of the world and the world no longer exists for us.

Everyone wants to live for something greater than themselves, but they fail to realize that NOTHING is bigger than the self. The self is the ONLY thing that can determine whether someone lives a joyful life or a tormented life. I can take the pain of root canals without anesthetic with a **** eating grin because the self can choose to love it anyway. Mind over matter. If I dont mind, it don't matter.

So, bandit, are you sure you would want to die while you can still experience so much of what life has to offer? If you want to die happy, then I would think that you would choose not to die when the time came. After all, you are happy, there is more to enjoy. If you want to die miserable, then I feel pity for you. But, knowing how quickly and easily your mood can change, you would die knowing that you do not wish to experience your next moment of joy.

As for me, I'll be laughing my way to death, adult diapers and all. Crass, vulgar, and hilarious jokes spewing forth from my mouth. This is life. And I am going to love every god damned second of it. Especially when it hurts.
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post #35 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 07:19 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Your post made me cry. Then the USC-Stanford game came on. Have to keep our priorities straight. Check back in 3 hours. Don't do anything rash.
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post #36 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 07:21 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

I'm very sorry to hear you have such a bleak outlook on the future.

I'm a lot older than you, well past your 60-year-old cutoff, and I look forward to the rest of my life.

I don't have the financial troubles you do, and am in very good health for my age.

But I can say that I might very well have such an outlook if something happened to take away my darling wife.

I don't expect that to happen any time soon, but you never know.

As I posted here some time ago, if that did happen I would be devastated... but I would have my TAM friends to console me, and I would probably be able to go on.

You are one of the ones I thought about when I wrote that post. Please don't sell yourself short.

And get your free testosterone checked! A healthy man of any age should notice when a beautiful woman goes by!

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post #37 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 07:21 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

I'm sorry you feel this way, bandit. I don't know if anything I say will help but here goes.

You have 12 to 15 years of good life left, so make good use of that time and find ways to make money. Restructure your finances to save while brainstorming of other ways to make money. I read an article on Yahoo some time ago about a man giving advice on mortgages. Instead of paying off his mortgage for that peace of mind, he took the full amount and put it in an interest bearing market account, while still paying off his mortgage month to month. Over the years, he made so much money from that interest alone, and the total was over twice what his original mortgage was. What I'm saying is there are many ways to make money. If you have the will, you'll come across knowledge that have been shared by others that will benefit you.
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post #38 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 07:37 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Well, if you mean to go through with it, bandit, I could always get my hands on a pistol (paid for by you) and clock you out.........

Joking, people, relax. Relax, I was only joking. Humour is good in these situations. C'mon, relax.

Funny thing is I was thinking about this exact question recently. Things were bad in my life, man, all bad. Unemployed, living with a crazed parent when I should be on my own, found out when you don't have money a lot of your friends aren't enthusiastic about your visits. Go figure. Plus, seeing your peers advance in life while you are dead in the water....it burns man. I was praying telling God I didn't know what to do and I wanted to call it in.

Well, the prayer worked. Someone offered me a job beginning next month. The salary quoted to me is the most I'm ever going to be paid in a job yet. I'm not even fully qualified for the job so it is above my paid grade. With that money I can finally go out on my own. Oh, the possibilities.

My point is don't throw in the towel until you have taken God in a choke-hold like Jacob did (Gen. 32:24-30). Test him first. Immerse yourself in the spiritual life: bible-studies, private prayer, outreach, church, the whole package. I am certain something will happen for you. As a matter of fact, I defy you to do this and not be blessed. I defy you to come back here and tell me it didn't work. I will eat this lamp on the table next to this raggedy laptop.

And to answer your question, no, I don't think suicide is unforgivable. Not advisable, that's for sure, but not unforgivable. The unpardonable sin the other poster spoke of, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is basically unbelief. I know a theologian will give a more academic answer but that is essentially what it is. One has to believe to have their sins pardoned. If you do not believe then your sins can not be pardoned, making unbelief itself unpardonable.

Maybe you could go to a third world country and be a hermit. lol, that should be good for a laugh if nothing else. Don't exhaust every crazy adventure before you call it a day. I mean, you are going to die anyway so what fear is holding you back.

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post #39 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 08:02 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
I have been contemplating suicide for a year or so now. It's not something I want to do now, but I could see doing it when I'm about 60. I look at my future and it's a bleak outlook. I have been burned too many times in relationships so I do not see myself marrying or sharing a life with anyone again. I am done with women and dating....just done with it. But there are also other considerations that have been leading me towards this.

I lost my retirement when the market crashed in 2008. I have tried to build it back up but I just don't have the extra money. I pay for all my own medical insurance and I just cannot seem to get my retirement nest egg growing at the rate it needs to be. Day to day expenses for a single guy are high nowadays. I just don't see myself having any decent standard of living if I ever retire, which seems like less and less of a possibility.
Let's pretend that you believed you might be able to build a very modest nest egg, would a modest nest egg be enough for you to feel hopeful about being able to retire at some point?

What would you do with your time once retired?

Quote:
I try to stay healthy and I excercise every day, but I am pretty sure I have onset arthritis. I am in pain every day with my feet and back. I wear orthotics but they don't help much. I have herniated disks, bad knees....I'm a mess skeleton wise. I am doing stretching every day, which helps a lot, but I cannot seem to get to where I feel any better. I've tried multivitamins, holistic foods, antioxidants...nothing seems to help. I see myself being pretty much stoved up completely by the time I'm 60.
How realistic is this? Knees can be replaced, so can hips, and disks can be moderately repaired. Perhaps there is some way to strategize with an orthopedic specialist so that should surgery be a good option with a better than good outcome, there might be ways to be able to afford all of this.


Quote:
My penis hasn't made an appearance in years. I see beautiful women everywhere and...nothing.
Nothing as in no desire or nothing as in no physiological response down stream? Viagara etc hasn't worked for you?


Quote:
I've been examined for depression and the psychologist tells me I'm fine. I don't feel depressed...but I just don't have any high hopes for any kind of happy future or retirement. I see pain and loneliness in my future.
Depression can be the cause for a bleak outlook, or a bleak outlook may pave the way for depression. One thing is certain, a good therapist can help you cope and not feel so overwhelmed and bleak.



Quote:
The only social activity I engage in is with my AA group, and hanging out with confused male alcoholics is not the most fulfilling way to spend evenings. They are good men, but my God they are messed up.
Why is this? You obviously have a great sense of humor why are you not sharing this with others?

Is there a cause you care about? Have you thought about volunteering?

Quote:
So I have been thinking about setting a term of limitation on my life. I don't really want to get old and have to have people take care of me. I have visited rest homes and...no way. Just no. I'm not spending my declining years wearing depends and eating lime jello.
They don't have rest homes anymore.

-There are active adult communities, generally 55 and up. These are just communities with amenities geared toward active retirees.
-There are retirement communities, like condo living, in which social activities are too numerous to list, from arts to pinball and pool tables. These are not assisted living and they are not nursing homes. The average age for new move in is mid 70's.

You can make a medical directive that states you wish all medical intervention be with held should the following conditions be met...depends and jello means no more live sustaining...



Quote:
I have been on a slew of Christian sites. Most say that suicide for born-again Christians like myself does not end up as a one way ticket to hell, but they do say it is a huge sin. I wonder what others here think. I know what the Catholics here will say, but I'd like perspectives from other mainstream Christains, Mormons and other religions.

My mother's mother, who died in the 1930's believed everyone went to heaven because we lived hell on earth.

I'm not a believer so I'll leave the doctrinal discussion to others. But I do believe that often times that which causes us to contemplate suicide is actually transient. It's not a feeling that is permanently part of our general outlook.

Loss of hope, loss of control, loss of significant others or relationships and even loss of financial security can and do cause significant impairment in our mood.

I have a hard time believing a psychologist listened to you clinically discuss your suicide thoughts and didn't ever you for more therapy. If this is true, you need a new psychologist! When the human mind, hard wired to survive, begins to contemplate suicide there is something VeRY wrong going on!

Please see a different therapist and please be completely open and honest about everything you've written here?

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post #40 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 08:08 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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Find a low t center. I'm betting it'll change your life. Even if your regular dr says your levels are "normal" for a guy your age. Find a specialist and I'd wager you'll be feeling great in a few short months.

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I was going to say this.

Having you TLvls drop radically can make the male brain go all wonky. Definitely contemplation of oblivion will be there if you levels have dropped a lot or have radically dropped quickly.

Lot of times your doctor simply won't understand and won't give you the test.

Say things like - "I'm getting tired using the remote.", "I don't have any desire for sex.", "I have no desire to look at porn." These Phrases tend to get you doctor's attention

You need to get that test done (if doctor won't have them refer you to a urologist/endocrinologist)


Question - Are you happy?

If YES - You have chosen wisely!
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post #41 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 08:27 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

This will be a very long reply; I apologize in advance. I have a lot to say on this subject and care about you as a person so it made me sad to read this, but I understand it. I recognize your thought process because I engage in it, near daily; different reasons but same conclusion.

I donít have active plans (doesnít sound like you do either), but itís always humming along quietly in the back of my mindÖ waiting patiently.

When Iím at my lowest, I welcome the whispering seduction of it and let it wrap me in its duplicitous warm embrace, other times I hate it and fight, I tell the cloying voice to shut the fvck up and leave me alone. Sometimes it does, but it never really leaves. It just waits. Its got time and it knows it.

I have double depression which is dysthymia compounded by major depressive episodes (my genes doubled down and lost!) and in a lot of ways suicide is a foregone conclusion. So I recognize this and try to be pragmatic about it.

Iíve developed coping strategies from a life spent struggling with this. I try to be practical and realistic in recognizing when my misery is clouding my thoughts and trying to deceive me into believing a false path is the only way out. Itís very persuasive and persistent but this sick chimera can be fought back. And Iím a fighter. I can never defeat it, but I consider myself victorious to simply survive each battle and no longer focus on the impossibility of ever winning the war.

You have said youíve had a full psychological testing so I am not going to second-guess ďexpertsĒ because I am not one (not even on the internet!), but with the hopelessness you describe I have to wonder if you might have dysthymia, which is harder to diagnose and treat. Itís a ďlow-gradeĒ persistent depressive disorder and since a lot of people who have it have had it most of their lives, they think it is ďnormalĒ to feel this way and may under-report symptoms of depression. Theyíve gotten so used to forcing themselves to function through it that they donít really notice the impairment and just live with it.

Psychologists and psychiatrists tend to focus on the symptoms of major depression and stick to their clinical diagnostic checklists and if you donít tick off so many items then youíre ďokayĒ, when in reality you may be very far from it.

I encourage you to be re-evaluated and be forthright about your persistent feelings of hopelessness and despair over humanity and the bleakness of your future. Clinicians are not infallible and itís like finding a needle in a haystack trying to locate an effective, knowledgeable, and compassionate one, but itís worth getting second, third, fourth opinions and being vocal and actively involved in your diagnosis and treatment. Forewarned is forearmed, so do your research and be prepared.

For the inflammation and pain, have you tried MSM (methylsulfonylmethane) and turmeric? If you combine them with vitamin C and omega-3 supplements, you may get some reduction in symptoms and hopefully a little relief. The turmeric and omegas may help with the feelings of depression too; they never did anything for me but it doesnít hurt to try.

Now on to the deeper, spiritual implications of suicide.

As a believer and follower of Christ (on my own, outside of organized religion), I have had to think about this subject a lot, not for myself, but because I had to deal with the devastating loss of a loved one from suicide and had to try to piece myself back together in the aftermath of that total destruction. I almost didnít make it.

My first love committed suicide after cheating, breaking my heart, and we failed at reconciliation. This was my first and only other relationship; my wild and wonderful ex-marine, alcoholic, atheist, depressed beautiful mess just couldnít see any other way out. No note, no goodbye, no explanation. Nothing. Except the gaping wound where my heart had been and the raw savage sorrow that ripped me apart and rebuilt me back as something I didnít recognize. I was like a ghost haunting my own life for a very long time.

It was many years before I recovered and truthfully I donít think I healed correctly. Like a badly broken bone that isnít reset properly and mends crooked with constant residual pain, Iíve limped through the years forever altered. The me I would have been died that day too and is buried with my dead lover.

The Catholic religion I grew up in (and shed as quickly as I could) views suicides as lost souls who do not enter the kingdom of heaven. They are condemned and beyond forgiveness. I agonized over this for a long time but ultimately decided I had already lost my religion, so why not trust and believe in my God? And my God is one of mercy and His divine capacity for love, compassion, and forgiveness is beyond anything our human minds can comprehend.

So I sought solace and refuge in my Lord, and found comfort in the word:

ďFor I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Ē - Romans 8:38-39

ďMy sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Ē - John 10:27-28

So in my lone, individual Christian way of thinking, this means that if you are a believer, then nothing can separate you from the love of God. Not even yourself.

Now this shouldnít be taken as an endorsement of suicide. I have lived through the devastation it causes and I would never want that for anyone. There are people in your life that would be irreparably impacted and damaged from the loss of you. We all matter, we all count; there are tendrils of meaning, love, and community that we weave and connect with those around us until it forms this beautiful, fvcked up crazy quilt we call life.

Do not discount your significance and contributions to the unique little patch that it is yours in the overall design. I know with unwavering certainty that there are others who are counting on the strength of your stitches to hold them together.

Focus on the good you are doing in your AA group; as others have suggested, consider volunteering for causes you believe in or joining a church or spiritual group that is in alignment with your beliefs, this will help build the bonds of humanity that we all need, whether we admit it or not.

And lastly, it may seem silly and insignificant, but for what itís worth, even if very little, I think the world is better with you in it.

Sorry again for the length of this post.

Iím off to post music and memes now. SometimesÖ itís the little pleasures in life that can see us through.

Godspeed and take care!
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post #42 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 08:39 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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Let's pretend that you believed you might be able to build a very modest nest egg, would a modest nest egg be enough for you to feel hopeful about being able to retire at some point?

What would you do with your time once retired?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EunuchMonk View Post
Maybe you could go to a third world country and be a hermit. lol, that should be good for a laugh if nothing else. Don't exhaust every crazy adventure before you call it a day. I mean, you are going to die anyway so what fear is holding you back.
Combining these two thoughts, you can live very well on a very modest amount of money in a lot of countries other than the US.

That's what I would do if my retirement plans went terribly astray.

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post #43 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 08:54 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

As to your eternal destination according to Christian theology, I believe there are two destinations. There are those who will spend eternity away from God, and there are those who will spend eternity with Him. According to many verses like John 3:16 and the crowns given to the saints in the book of Revelation, I believe the people who make it to heaven are split into two groups: those who receive the robe of righteousness because they led a righteous life, walked really close to God, and overcame the sins and temptations of the world. With that robe of righteousness and that crown, they get to enter the holy city where God the father sits on His throne. They will get to see Him face to face because they are worthy. The other group who makes it to heaven have to live outside the holy city, but inside the pearly gates. These are the people who believed in God but did not or could not overcome the sins of the flesh and the temptations of this world, but God through His mercy allows them inside the pearly gates anyway. I believe many Christians fall into that group. For many are called but few are chosen. The wedding invitations were handed out long ago, but like the parable said, only a very small number of invited guests wanted to attend. parable

You do matter, bandit. Who knows, maybe if you stick around long enough, you may affect someone's life in a meaningful way that will change their life forever, and that person could affect other people's lives in untold ways.
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post #44 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate the wisdom and experience and I'm lucky to have a TAM family to turn to. Lots to digest here. I'm going to meditate on all of this and come back tomorrow with responses.

Don't worry folks, I am not thinking of offing myself now or anytime in the near future. Just ruminating about the distant future and what options I have.
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post #45 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 09:17 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Jesus was the proof that we are already saved. The second we acknowledge it, that we are ok, and that life is well, despite its mess, we are saved.

Everyone that professes to be Christian calls him the savior. But I call him something more... he is the proof that we are already saved. He is the proof that it is ok for us to feel all that we feel and still love ourselves.

Jesus did not think himself greater than anyone else. He knew that he was given the golden ticket. He knew that he was aware when others werent. He could love others, even despite what they did to him, because they did not really know what they were doing.

Ever wonder why the bible says that faith without works is dead? I wondered about that a lot. But think about it... can you call yourself good of you don't do good? Can you really believe that you are good without doing good?

I cannot. In order to believe that I am good, I must do good. I must love those around me. I must love myself so that I can actually live others as I love myself.

If I love myself, I must forgive myself any feeling that pops up out of my own ignorance. And if I am willing to forgive myself for what I feel, I must forgive others.

Bandit, is any of this making sense to you?
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"The ecologist is continually having to look at the aspects of nature with which he is unfamiliar and perforce must be an amateur for much of his working time.... professionals may carp at omissions, misconstructions, or even downright errors in these pages. perhaps ultimately they may forgive them for the sake of the overall vision that only the amateur, or the ecologist, blithely sets out to experience."G. Evelyn Hutchinson
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