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post #46 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 10:45 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

I would comment on something @As’laDain; wrote, yes it is true that we only “feel what WE feel”.

However there are some in this world who feel too much. We can sense what others feel and, sometimes even absorb their feelings if we are close enough to them or to their experience. This is a condition; a state of being. Is it learned or innate? I don’t know, but I do know that it is something that must be actively managed lest you become overwhelmed by it. And, sometimes the management effort can be exhausting.

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post #47 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 11:23 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

My favorite poem, except the Master of my Fate line.

You steer your ship, a Three Master Sailing Ship, subject to the Winds, the Sea and the Sirens who lure you off course.

Invictess ----<+>----

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

-William Ernest Henley

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #48 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-17-2016, 11:26 PM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Bandit...brother...

Nobody really knows the answer to the question you are asking.

You are clearly one of those people that Sonja is alluding to, who feels everything and it is amplified. I know this type, because I am the same way. So is my wife. There are times where all we want to do is get to our home and away from the madness that this world is, and the crazy people which fill it. This world is filled with pain. People hurt. Often they hurt due to poor decisions. Other times it is due to placing trust in the wrong person. Yet, there is so much joy in life as well. I find that as I meet the crazies (of which I am likely a member, just my own brand), the more fascinating and good people I meet. When I meet them, I nurture those relationships. When you strip away all that is fake and plastic in this world, relationships with others are really all you have left.

As a fellow alcoholic, I also think you need to keep one important factor in perspective. You may not feel this at all, so feel free to tell me to pound sand. There are times where I sit, and look around, and think to myself that my highs are gone. It is not even the alcohol that I miss, but rather the anticipation. Anticipation of a night out, with a few (dozen) drinks, the fun to be had, the adventures to be experienced. With that anticipation gone, I sometimes look around and feel...unfulfilled. Without someone in your life, I would think that would be amplified.

Brother, it may be time to start looking for someone to help fill out your life. I know you have repeatedly said that you are done, but I would tell you that it is a blessing (and sometimes a curse ) to have a sensitive as a sensitive's partner.

Even if you are not, perhaps you are not finding what your next calling may be. I would pray for it. Pray that God's will would be done in your life. Pray to be open to being led. Fair warning: it is not always the direction we think we want to go, but it is always the direction we should go.

There is joy to be had in life. Make sure you are open to experiencing it.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #49 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 12:11 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

“If one knows how to treasure oneself, one should protect oneself well.”
-The Buddha (Dhammapada)

We work hard... no, struggle... to keep desires in check.

To me, suicide is an desire of choice where one can choose the outcome no other can choose for them.

Desires can be good and complimenting (treat others well, strengthen oneself with mindful thoughts and healthy living, value morals as a contribution) or they can be poor and detrimental (treat others poorly, weaken oneself with unhealthy thoughts or food and drink, choose values that hurt self and others).

A taking of one's own life is between you and the next path... no creator as God, whom many have faith in, would have so little love to damn a spirit that chooses such a path. If I was to end my life this minute, it would not be the act that would create my hardship but the life I led up to it.

There will come a time that we may see our existence as something that will come to a point where our only purpose will be to consume a resource that could be better used for others, and this is not an outlook that helps one's spiritual congruence.

Bandit, many of the things in your opening post address fears of future tense, what you expect and what you accept are going to be something to grow toward as you look to what is, and what will be. You have such incredible strength, I've read it in your writings and opinions, please don't forget how to apply such wisdom to self.

As for physical intimacy, friendship isn't measured at the crotch last I was aware and if more love was sprouted with the heart and mind first, relationships would last a whole lot longer. Beauty is measure at the soul... I am confident there is value undiscovered that would partner with a partner beyond the discontentedness of your measure.

When the time comes, I am sure I will be one that will ask for "just a little more morphine" to take me to the next path before my senses leave me, until then, an unlived life is my greater concern.

May you live yours letting what you do today meet the only approval you need, yours... and work with it, not against it.


ps. Mormons believe that taking one's life is a situation only God can understand and judge.
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post #50 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 12:24 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
I find that as I meet the crazies (of which I am likely a member, just my own brand), the more fascinating and good people I meet.
This is so true. A small story if you’ll indulge me.

I live in an “upscale” urban area right on the beach. I don’t know what it is about the beach, maybe it’s the openness or the weather (?) but my area attracts a lot of “crazies”. You know the types; the ones that most people would prefer did not exist or would just “go away”.

There has been an older woman here in the area for a few months. She is dirty, sleeps on the sidewalks and spends much of her time shuffling around talking to herself, sometimes screaming the words. I hear my neighbors complain about “that woman” and why won’t someone “do something about her”.

I am often out walking with my dogs in the area. One day she looked at my dog Sherman as I passed and I heard her say “English Bulldog”. I said “Yes, he is, would you like to pet him?” Sherman is a big love bug who thinks no human in his world should pass without petting him, . I let Sherman approach her and he sat looking up at her as she petted him very gently. In that moment her face lit up, I could see that she has beautiful and luminous blue eyes. She began to tell me about her dogs and the fact that she had always loved the bully-breeds. Since that day, she smiles and says hello when we meet on my walks, she gives my dogs affection and we speak a bit. This woman has never asked me for anything, she just wants to give my dogs a scratch and have a small chat.

She adds to my day and my dogs now love her. Yet people call her crazy and want her gone.
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post #51 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 12:51 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Call a suicide helpline in Pakistan. They will find some use for you.

That was a joke to make you laugh and anyone taking offense can also laugh.

But here is my serious part.
Suicide is a good option but there are many better ways to live. Join some service organisation. Go to Africa or come to India. Work with the poor. Just work doing anything.
There is a saying in my land that the god lives in the smiles of the poor. Maybe just maybe a life of service like that will save you as well.

A sealed heart is the greatest penalty anyone incurs.
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post #52 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 01:14 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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I have been contemplating suicide for a year or so now. It's not something I want to do now, but I could see doing it when I'm about 60. I look at my future and it's a bleak outlook. I have been burned too many times in relationships so I do not see myself marrying or sharing a life with anyone again. I am done with women and dating....just done with it. But there are also other considerations that have been leading me towards this.

I lost my retirement when the market crashed in 2008. I have tried to build it back up but I just don't have the extra money. I pay for all my own medical insurance and I just cannot seem to get my retirement nest egg growing at the rate it needs to be. Day to day expenses for a single guy are high nowadays. I just don't see myself having any decent standard of living if I ever retire, which seems like less and less of a possibility.

I try to stay healthy and I excercise every day, but I am pretty sure I have onset arthritis. I am in pain every day with my feet and back. I wear orthotics but they don't help much. I have herniated disks, bad knees....I'm a mess skeleton wise. I am doing stretching every day, which helps a lot, but I cannot seem to get to where I feel any better. I've tried multivitamins, holistic foods, antioxidants...nothing seems to help. I see myself being pretty much stoved up completely by the time I'm 60.

My penis hasn't made an appearance in years. I see beautiful women everywhere and...nothing.

I've been examined for depression and the psychologist tells me I'm fine. I don't feel depressed...but I just don't have any high hopes for any kind of happy future or retirement. I see pain and loneliness in my future.

The only social activity I engage in is with my AA group, and hanging out with confused male alcoholics is not the most fulfilling way to spend evenings. They are good men, but my God they are messed up.

So I have been thinking about setting a term of limitation on my life. I don't really want to get old and have to have people take care of me. I have visited rest homes and...no way. Just no. I'm not spending my declining years wearing depends and eating lime jello.

I have been on a slew of Christian sites. Most say that suicide for born-again Christians like myself does not end up as a one way ticket to hell, but they do say it is a huge sin. I wonder what others here think. I know what the Catholics here will say, but I'd like perspectives from other mainstream Christains, Mormons and other religions.
First I think suicide does not mean you go to hell per definition. I consider it as a sin, big or small depending on the situation. From a Christian viewpoint, life is not to be expected without problems, it is about dealing with our problems. The way we do that should be that of Jesus, our example.

Then, you have a number of problems, which many people have nowadays. Many people. It is hard to stay optimistic for everybody. So you are not alone, there must be groups in forums working on any of your problems. Find groups for each of your issues is what I would advise. I myself have had a lot of support from youtube vids that deal with certain area's. I like Jim Rohn very much on the issue of thinking and changing your thinking.

In my experience people who have lost their outlook on the future, do not grab the lifeline you hand them, because they have reasons to believe it will not help them. I include myself also in that way of thinking. I am not better than you or them. I want to say, it is normal behavior to think it will not help. But rationally you should accept the notion that certain things WILL help you.

God Creates out of Nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but He does what is still more Wonderful: He makes Saints out of Sinners.

Soren Kierkegaard
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post #53 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 01:24 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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Originally Posted by bandit.45 View Post
Again I'm not depressed. I just went through a battery of psychological exams six months ago and I'm not depressed or "suicidal" in the strict meaning of the term. My blood work came back clean also. I am not sitting here moping around or feeling sorry for myself. I am simply looking down the road two decades, objectively, and I don't see where it is going to work it for me. I do appreciate your concern and good advice, but I am disillusioned and disenchanted, not depressed. There is a vast difference.
I think you are right, there is a tendency though to repair feelings like you have with medication, sedating and calming people through life. You choose to see and feel your reality, and that is a sign of good mental health.

God Creates out of Nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but He does what is still more Wonderful: He makes Saints out of Sinners.

Soren Kierkegaard
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post #54 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 01:38 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

A lot of good points here.

1. Depression is hard to see in yourself. It took me years to realize I was depressed. When you go so long in life viewing things a certain way, it never occurs to you that your way of viewing things is f'd up. Sometimes you can only see how messed up it is after you start getting better. It's like looking at yourself for the first time, instead of a funhouse mirror.

2. As AP said, if you discussed your plans with a psychologist and he gave you a thumbs up, then your psychologist sucks ass.

3. Asla mentioned Faith without works is dead. Helping others fills a void in your life like nothing else can do. Even an old penniless man can affect people's lives in a positive way. And that gets paid back. Loneliness, uselessness, all of that goes away when you see the difference you can make in someone else's life.

Darling it's better down where it's wetter, take it from me! --- Sebastian
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post #55 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 01:39 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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Well, if you mean to go through with it, bandit, I could always get my hands on a pistol (paid for by you) and clock you out.........

Joking, people, relax. Relax, I was only joking. Humour is good in these situations. C'mon, relax.

Funny thing is I was thinking about this exact question recently. Things were bad in my life, man, all bad. Unemployed, living with a crazed parent when I should be on my own, found out when you don't have money a lot of your friends aren't enthusiastic about your visits. Go figure. Plus, seeing your peers advance in life while you are dead in the water....it burns man. I was praying telling God I didn't know what to do and I wanted to call it in.

Well, the prayer worked. Someone offered me a job beginning next month. The salary quoted to me is the most I'm ever going to be paid in a job yet. I'm not even fully qualified for the job so it is above my paid grade. With that money I can finally go out on my own. Oh, the possibilities.

My point is don't throw in the towel until you have taken God in a choke-hold like Jacob did (Gen. 32:24-30). Test him first. Immerse yourself in the spiritual life: bible-studies, private prayer, outreach, church, the whole package. I am certain something will happen for you. As a matter of fact, I defy you to do this and not be blessed. I defy you to come back here and tell me it didn't work. I will eat this lamp on the table next to this raggedy laptop.

And to answer your question, no, I don't think suicide is unforgivable. Not advisable, that's for sure, but not unforgivable. The unpardonable sin the other poster spoke of, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is basically unbelief. I know a theologian will give a more academic answer but that is essentially what it is. One has to believe to have their sins pardoned. If you do not believe then your sins can not be pardoned, making unbelief itself unpardonable.

Maybe you could go to a third world country and be a hermit. lol, that should be good for a laugh if nothing else. Don't exhaust every crazy adventure before you call it a day. I mean, you are going to die anyway so what fear is holding you back.

Great post! It seems to have worked out good for you. Makes me smile. We have to take this challenge if we are serious about our believe system.

Philippians 4:4 says be happy and joyful in the Lord, always. That is not a promise, it is an assignment, a command.

I have been through troubles and hardship in my life that go a lot deeper than Bandit talks about, so I feel I can mention such a text. On the surface it seems a stupid text, but I feel it contains a lot of wisdom.

Because whatever your situation is, behaving in good spirit, joking, optimistic, will always lead to better outcome than when acting depressed.


God Creates out of Nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but He does what is still more Wonderful: He makes Saints out of Sinners.

Soren Kierkegaard
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post #56 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 06:28 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

God manifests himself in everything and in all of his creations, whether or not that person has a firm belief and acknowledgement in Him!

One can see Him, whether they are in a great metropolis, or in the countries rural backdrop, where His beauty can be examined and felt to its fullest extent!

God can be found and experienced within the beauty of a either a grandiose or even a meager church sanctuary, from the stirring music from a great pipe organ or an off tune soloist, or in the privacy of your own space as you are in contrite prayer and communication with him. That is when he truly speaks to you! And although He loves us beyond measure, God speaks to us on His terms, and certainly not ours! He is in charge, and not us!

Look at the magnanimous beauty of this sphere and you have to ask yourself, who but a loving God, could have ever conceived such a concept! God feels such a reciprocal love for all of His creations, that He offered us a plan of salvation through Jesus Christ His son!

To that end, when heavenly salvation is offered and accepted, no one can pluck the recipient from the Father's hand!

God wants us all to positively and lovingly seek Him, directly and indirectly, through other believers and non-believers alike, wherever it is that He may be, and no matter with regard to what our earthly vocation, avocation or rank might possibly be!

Just as He first sought us with His infinite, unceasing, and undying love for us!

As earthly believers, we are truly here in the spirit and magnitude of His service!

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Last edited by arbitrator; 09-18-2016 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Edification
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post #57 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 07:23 AM
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

While I empathise with your thought process, I think you are asking the wrong question. I'd point you to James 4:13-17. Or if you want it straight from the horse's mouth, Matthew 6:34 (maybe start reading at 25).

You don't know the future.
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post #58 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sonja View Post

I am often out walking with my dogs in the area. One day she looked at my dog Sherman as I passed and I heard her say “English Bulldog”. I said “Yes, he is, would you like to pet him?” Sherman is a big love bug who thinks no human in his world should pass without petting him, . I let Sherman approach her and he sat looking up at her as she petted him very gently. In that moment her face lit up, I could see that she has beautiful and luminous blue eyes. She began to tell me about her dogs and the fact that she had always loved the bully-breeds. Since that day, she smiles and says hello when we meet on my walks, she gives my dogs affection and we speak a bit. This woman has never asked me for anything, she just wants to give my dogs a scratch and have a small chat.

She adds to my day and my dogs now love her. Yet people call her crazy and want her gone.
Makes you wonder about her life story doesn't it?

When I was a kid, my dad would sometimes help a friend of his work on a gas furnace that heated an old two story apartment building in the main town I grew up near. While dad and his friend were down in the basement I would stay upstairs with my Matchbox cars and kill time. At the end of the big central corridor was an old worn chair and this old man would come out and watch me play. He was probably in his eighties and he spoke very little English. He was very kindly and would talk to me in broken English and would just sit there and watch me and laugh at my antics. Sometimes he would produce a Hershey bar or a piece of gum for me. He wasn't a perv or a pedophile....just an honestly nice old man who was obviously on a thin pension and alone.

He died a few years later and I found out my dad had worked with him in the past. My dad knew his story. It was remarkable. The man was Serbian, had fought in the Serbian civil war when he was thirteen, then fought in WWI against the Germans when he was eighteen, then immigrated to the US to work in the copper mines near where we lived, and then signed up again for WWII. He was in his mid thirties when he was sent back to Europe where he served this time in the army infantry. Three wars in a lifetime. He was decorated umpteen times.

This old gentleman spoke five different languages or something, and my dad remembered how he would scold a work crew in German with a perfect German accent when they weren't cutting the mustard. . He only married once, back in Serbia, but his young wife died soon after WWI. He spent the rest of his life alone but very happy and well-liked by everyone who knew him. When he died, about a hundred people from around town showed up for his funeral. They had a VFW honor guard there and the mayor gave his eulogy. It was very touching. Somehow this old man had affected a lot of people's lives in a positive way just by being kind and honest.

But you never think, when you look at a homeless person, what their story is. We just tell ourselves that they must not have one.
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post #59 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

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Originally Posted by arbitrator View Post
God manifests himself in everything and in all of his creations, whether or not that person has a firm belief and acknowledgement in Him!

One can see Him, whether they are in a great metropolis, or in the countries rural backdrop, where His beauty can be examined and felt to its fullest extent!

God can be found and experienced within the beauty of a either a grandiose or even a meager church sanctuary, from the stirring music from a great pipe organ or an off tune soloist, or in the privacy of your own space as you are in contrite prayer and communication with him. That is when he truly speaks to you! And although He loves us beyond measure, God speaks to us on His terms, and certainly not ours! He is in charge, and not us!

Look at the magnanimous beauty of this sphere and you have to ask yourself, who but a loving God, could have ever conceived such a concept! God feels such a reciprocal love for all of His creations, that He offered us a plan of salvation through Jesus Christ His son!

To that end, when heavenly salvation is offered and accepted, no one can pluck the recipient from the Father's hand!

God wants us all to positively and lovingly seek Him, directly and indirectly, through other believers and non-believers alike, wherever it is that He may be, and no matter with regard to what our earthly vocation, avocation or rank might possibly be!

Just as He first sought us with His infinite, unceasing, and undying love for us!

As earthly believers, we are truly here in the spirit and magnitude of His service!

Posted via Mobile Device




Methodists......


A Baptist could never be that eloquent.
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post #60 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Will Suicide Bar Me From Heaven?

Thank you all for participating in this thread. I appreciate the loving vibes you are all sending my way. And I spent a lot of time last night after my AA group mulling over these posts. They were all very well thumbed...I assure you.

Since the second young man in my AA group committed suicide a few weeks back, my own sense of my mortality has been leaning over me like a shadow. I am only 48, yet for the past couple of years I have felt like I'm 65.

Firtsly, I am not pointing a handgun at my head. My guns are safely locked away in a safe in a climate controlled storage unit a few blocks down the street. I am not suicidal. I am however feeling a sense of impending entropy. And this is what scares me. I just moved to Houston, a beautiful city with highly educated people, a great Texan culture, fantastic restaurants, racial diversity....everything you could want in a hip, cool place to live. And yet. And yet....I have no desire whatsoever to open myself up to anyone here. I am so loathe to make friends, because making friends requires personal investment and energy. I have no energy. I'm a construction project manager and I work 60-70 hours a week in a high pressure environment, so when I get home at night I am toast. Dead.

And it isn't just physical tiredness. I am angry. I cannot watch the news anymore without becoming infuriated, so I just don't. I don't talk politics anymore because what good does it do? I am angry at the decadence that has poisoned our world, but most specifically I am enraged at the American people who have slid so far down the cosmic bunny hole that I don't know how we will ever climb out of this mess we have made here.

I went to NASA a few months back. I'm a huge fan of the space program. The Apollo 11 astronauts were and are my heroes. I toured the facility in awe, saw the mighty Saturn V rocket, saw the moon rocks and the spacesuits. It's a spectacular exhibit. Then I took the tram out to mission control and sat in the bleachers above the old mission control room. It was a sacred place. It was a wonderful day.

But on my drive home I pondered how no one in our Society gives a sh!t about that kind of stuff anymore. Americans no longer dream. We work, we consume, we brag, we lie, we stab each other in the back and we look out for ourselves and ourselves only.

Neighbors don't talk to each other, make friends. I have lived in my rental house for six months and the only time a neighbor talked to me was to come tell me to move my car which I had to park far the down the street due to construction. I have introduced myself to neighbors but no one wants to share or engage or invite you in for coffee. It's so impersonal. And this is Texas...the friendliest state with the friendliest people in the nation....


RANT RANT RANT!!!
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