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post #31 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 03:06 PM
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Re: Divorce Busting

From personal experience, relationships hit a wall for various reasons and it takes emotional agility, fortitude and INTEGRITY, AHEM.... PREFERABLY OF THE VIRTUOUS KIND.. AHEM AHEM, to reinvent it and create a new chapter. There ARE some scenarios where that is best created inside the existing relationship and other times it is best created after that existing relationship is declared over.


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post #32 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 05:32 PM
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Divorce Busting

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I have only skimmed MMSL, but I don't think it is even in the same category.

I have read NMMNG and MMSL and I am in the process of reading The Book.

They are not in the same category by far. The two are focused on self centered behavior that may influence the other partner (if she cares) while The Book makes no pretense of using a basic transactional model of sex to accomplish chores.

The Book may appeal to the desperate for attention and sex crowd but misses a very important point. The human mind's ability to put two and two together and see thru the program and decide whether control, chores, and metered sex at best is worth the rewards.

Unless we are talking p0rn sex quality, a starved individual with zero confidence, and mink frequency, there's no way the typical individual will spend hours doing dishes while Queen Jenny is on the iPad reading 50 Shades of Inverse Gray...

About that dishwasher....
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post #33 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 07:03 PM
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Re: Divorce Busting

John, would you say that this is only going to appeal to naturally submissive men? Or would they also need to be vulnerable?

And was anything said about the need for informed consent?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #34 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 07:46 PM
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Re: Divorce Busting

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Seeing this from the male perspective helps me appreciate better how all you ladies felt when all the MMSL stuff was so big here.
Chateau Heartiste is still being recommended here.

I mean...yeah.
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post #35 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 07:57 PM
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Re: Divorce Busting

Dare I even ask what that is
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post #36 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 08:11 PM
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Divorce Busting

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John, would you say that this is only going to appeal to naturally submissive men? Or would they also need to be vulnerable?



And was anything said about the need for informed consent?

Naturally submissive describes most of corporate America underlings ... Vulnerable too. Not sexually necessarily but still...

Informed consent - the men know what's in it for them after the first few "conversation" sessions.

To some extent I feel she describes things already happening in many marriages (which fail for the most part). Queen? I think not...but transactionalizing marriage is not uncommon. People want what they want and will do everything to get it. Perhaps she is honest enough to write about it.
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post #37 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-08-2014, 11:45 PM
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Finished The Book. I must say, the wife that will pull this successfully will likely have enough self confidence and step on corpses lack of morality that success in any career or field is inevitable, and with success being inevitable, kindly hire your own maid service and be done with it.

The Book focuses too much on "lower level" functions like sexual desire and completely misses the boat on the higher level cognitive functions that most of us use every day. It conveniently forgets how the human mind operates under constantly changing what if scenarios, always looking to seek and maximize reward. At some point the voice in the back of the head will point the obvious... Rebellion is inevitable.

The knight example happens in men. The military is a good example. Sports is another. But getting to the knight mentality in the military, or sports, does not happen in an intimate setting. There's a good greater than the individual.

Regardless the concept is interesting but those of us who have been around for a while know sex is not a Pavlovian reward. No amount of sex will get me to agree to have my in-laws move in with us for example...
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post #38 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 06:05 AM
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Re: Divorce Busting

John117 says: Rebellion is inevitable.

Yep, thats what I said in the other thread. That opression always blows apart. I have lived this kind of mess with my mother using her affection (not sexual) as the drug and her abuse as the control. When I hit 39 it blew apart and when it did it was quite a powerful rebellion.

And then again when I almost ended up with a guy who has this kind of dom/sub down to such a fine science and in ways she will never be exposed to. He makes her look like ... A toddler at best. He was a fierce dom at a level I cant even describe here. I almost took the bait, but was wise enough to dodge it by then.

The day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to Blossom. - Anais Nin
Never underestimate the potential for things to improve in ways you cannot yet imagine. Karen Rohlf
Be soft as possible, but firm as necessary - Pat Parelli

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post #39 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 06:42 AM
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Re: Divorce Busting

Thanks for being the sacrificial lamb, John

Your assessment doesn't really surprise me. Based on what of her literature I've read, the dynamic she encourages women to establish isn't really a wife/husband nor even a Dom/sub relationship but much closer to an owner/dog relationship (which I guess lines up with your use of "Pavlovian"). And just like the owner/dog, the whole thing is implemented using positive and negative reinforcement and fundamentally predicated on the ignorance of the dog and it's inability to reason out the nature of the relationship.

Only we're not talking about dogs, we're talking about people who typically do have that level of reasoning, or at least do before being "conditioned".
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post #40 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 07:28 AM
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Re: Divorce Busting

And even dogs can get their bellies full of abuse and bite the hand that feeds them.

Her world will come crashing down eventually as well as the minions she is grooming. The come aparts are catestrophic and and carries the potential to tear even extended families apart. She has no idea what is headed her way. I'm on the other side if final rebellion and know. When you put someone under intense control you place yourself willingly in their line of fire to come. I cannot imagine the rebellion of a full grown man after he finally rebels. Carries the potential to make my rebellion look very tiny though it was quite a spectacle.


The day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to Blossom. - Anais Nin
Never underestimate the potential for things to improve in ways you cannot yet imagine. Karen Rohlf
Be soft as possible, but firm as necessary - Pat Parelli

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post #41 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 09:02 AM
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Divorce Busting

The thing is, sex can only carry one so far. Granted, my own situation in the last few years is not a stellar example of a good marriage but we could be having p0rn star quality and quantity sex and it would not fix anything.

There are cases where a single factor can sway a person completely to one side or another. Politics is a good example. People can select one issue and run with it or away from it without realizing the long term impact of what they selected. There's no instant feedback, for example, to those who voted for XYZ party because of a single issue and a couple years later XYZ changes a law or policy and throws them under the bus.

Here the impact is visible instantly, Pavlov style. No amount of "conversation" can sugar coat it.

Anyhow it is an interesting read that at least has the guts to admit that SOME people choose sex as a method of control, consciously or subconsciously. Most people outside BDSM and the like don't accept it so it's a start...

Now pardon me I have some housework to attend to before a 20 mile bike ride... After 20 miles it takes some serious "conversation" to bring the family jewels back to life
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post #42 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 11:07 AM
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Re: Divorce Busting

Who do you think would be vulnerable to her methods, Blossom?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #43 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 11:26 AM
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Re: Divorce Busting

Well, since sex forms the basis of the punishment/reward system, my first guess would be men in sexless marriages. But I think that's too limited a view, since sex is one of the first things to go once deeper relationship issues take hold. So maybe a better thought would be any man in a troubled marriage in which the sex life has been severely affected and who might thus be susceptible to sudden sexual overtures from the wife.

Idk that I'd necessarily say submissive men are susceptible because this doesn't seem like dom/sub stuff to me, at least not in my admittedly limited understanding of it. This seems much more subversive than that since the awareness or consent of the husband is not required.
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post #44 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 11:40 AM
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Re: Divorce Busting

Submissive men who are not emotionally healthy?

Again, what bothers me here is the lack of informed consent. Whatever two adults agree to through informed consent is their own business. When it is predatory, it is a problem.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #45 of 50 (permalink) Old 08-09-2014, 12:00 PM
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Divorce Busting

I doubt it would work in sexless marriage cases because such men are a lot better at figuring out the carrot and stick approach than the typical man who takes spousal sex more for granted (in a good way).

It might work at first when the reward to chore ratio is higher but I don't really see it working once a routine is "established" so to speak.

Perhaps one could look up Lady Of The Lake (a former TAM member) and I seem to remember a similar approach...
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