MEM11363

Her responsibility to get help for something that has such a HUGE impact on the marriage.

What if I had a huge childhood event that left some mental scar. And say I kept losing jobs over that. And say I never told my wife about it and never got help over it. And she/wife is eventually is having a nervous breakdown over finances and wants to divorce me. Whose responsibility is that? Mine or hers?

I am sympathetic to victims of abuse. But THEY have a responsibility to the person they vowed to love.

MarkTwain

This part in bold is key... If you can't reach that point, you are doomed most likely. You've basically got to be prepared to walk away. To not be addicted to the hope of thongs getting better on their own. Such hope is futile.

However, reading on...

We see here the other side of the coin. Well some of it anyway

If you can be both certain of yourself and sensitive to her, then it can work - maybe.

__________________
MT
See me on: www.marriagesatsang.com

turnera

The thing about people who have been abused, is that they develop something called toxic shame. It literally controls their entire lives. They live a lie (in their minds), since they 'know' they are worthless, and they just pretend to deserve to be in the same room as everyone else.

Just telling them they 'owe' it to their spouse to get help, while I understand your thinking, is a fairly unattainable goal. Most of them would die before admitting to anyone, even a therapist, their deep dark secrets (which they blame themselves for).

If you do have a spouse with this issue, I suggest reading Healing the Shame That Binds You, to get a good insight into what your wife is really thinking. Maybe it would help you find a way to get through to her.

mirmex

I think my wife was educated in a very traditional and strict manner. I don't think she has any trauma. Sex is just not part of her life. She cannot even understand my needs on this.

turnera

How have you approached her about it?

MEM11363

MM,
Upbringing is not really relevant here. There were lots of differences between my upbringing and my wifes. There were many things which were critical to her that I never even thought about pre-marriage. Guess what, ALL of those things are now important to me because they are important to her. And vice versa. Though she would readily tell you my list is way way shorter:
- Sex has to be given a high priority
- I need to be spoken to in a respectful manner - the same manner with which I speak to her
- We both have to stay reasonably fit, I need to stay over a minimum weight - she likes stocky - she needs to stay under a maximum weight
- short list of other stuff that is boring - but matters to me

So this whole idea of it is not important to me, because it is not important to me ends on the day you exchange rings. That is the day you merge EVERYTHING, including your priorities.

With that said - I have become totally fluent during the last 20 years in what turns my wife on/off. Simple things like never ever eating garlic unless she is with me and wishes to eat the same dish. And more complicated things like how I handle the kids when they are misbehaving. And I have learned all this by watching, and by asking.

The marriage vows are in sickness, for poorer and in bad times. They never said and never will say "and in total indifference to your spouse's needs and happiness"

mirmex

I am afraid the beggar way, when I tried to approach her. I do not try any longer for more or less half a year (last time I saw her nude was in March 2009...).
Her approach was almost always, "not today", "now I am tired", "let's see tomorrow". She even used to refuse me kissing her on the grounds that "you are never satisfied with just a kiss, and afterwords you will want something else". Now that I do not longer care she says "how could I like to have sex with you if you are so indifferent and rough with me?". Well, I may be now, but not during the past 10 years (or maybe I was, but do you have to be perfect to get sex?).

About other people stating their hot experiences after being a long trip away home. In my case it was almost always a nightmare: I tended to forgot the situation and expected something special when going back home, only to find her in a defensive mood just in case I wanted to do something with her.

Mem, your comments are very enlightening. You are perfectly right. Other comments on "the nice guy" are also very pertinent in my case. I started thinking that I am may be too weak for having renounced so easily to my minimum requirements. Too bad...

mirmex

...and I am being also too weak for not taking the drastic decision but maybe only way out of moving on and divorce my wife...

MEM11363

BEFORE you even MENTION divorce try this, amazingly powerful.

Best move I have seen guys make in this situation:
- They make a conscious decision to be more upbeat/fun to be around. This is a sincere thing - they are more solution focused and more optimistic.
- They are friendly and polite to wife
- They STOP saying I LOVE YOU to her, they stop doing all the loving stuff, gifts - gifts on valentines day, taking her on dates, etc. If she says I love you - just smile and nod. They stop doing above and beyond acts of service - she gets in bed and wants a glass of water - just smile and say - sorry babe I have a few things I need to get done right now.

This is not about refusing to talk. Not at all. When you eat together talk to her, listen to her, tell her funny events from your day. Be totally engaged - interesting and interested in her and her day. Just DON'T compliment her - that is a type of love.

ALSO spend less time at home with her. Start going to the gym/or go more often. Do more things without her.

She may get angry - if she does YOU must stay calm. She may attack you for being cold/mean. The best response is "what is it you want from me?" And the best answer when she says to go back to normal is to say "why"? And then listen.

I think this is where the marriage lives or dies. If you ask her, "do you want to be married to me?" she will take that question very seriously after a week of being extremely deprioritized. If she says anything other than "YES" with enthusiasm, then just say "ok". Because at this point - if she is not totally committed you are wasting your time. If she says "not sure, no, etc" just say ok. And then go home and file. A MC cannot fix a lack of commitment. If she does say "YES", then you can ask her, "do you know what it will take for me to go back to the way I was"?

And if she plays dumb I would say - well let me give you a few days to think about it. But the hint is that it is the part of our marriage that I am very frustrated with.

If she says she knows - but seems unhappy - demand clarity. Show some honesty and tell her - I KNOW you don't like sex with me, but you need to tell me WHY so I can fix it, or we cannot make this work. And if she really resists - you can always ask "would you prefer to be uncomfortably honest or single?"

And then do not change anything until she drags you into bed and starts to fix the broken part of your sexual relationship. Because to regain respect - you need to force her to make the first move here.

MarkTwain

Your are like a man who has been in a deep slumber. You are only just now staring to rouse. When you finally wake up to what you have been a party to you will be quite shocked.

You might find it helpful to read this: Sexless Marriage?

However, that article was written for men who's wives are not quite as manipulative as yours. So take it with a pinch of salt.

__________________
MT
See me on: www.marriagesatsang.com

Star

Here's an idea, try cutting the c*ap with all the "mind" games with not telling her you love her, doing loving things and not taking her out ect, ect and just cut to the chase of the question "do you want to be married to me?" and have a serious conversation rather than playing tactics?

__________________
My Life, My Way -TWC.

lisakifttherapy

Sexual intimacy in marriage can flow really for some couples but in my experience as a couples therapist, most people fall out of sync in some way, particularly after a number of years being together. In your case, your wife sounds like she has some family of origin issues and unhelpful lessons learned about relationships and what they look like - that are negatively impacting your situation.

The bottom line is that it's a really important topic not to let to undiscussed. I recently read a really great and user-friendly workbook by a psychologist and relationship coach that I highly recommend to couples wanting to work on the passion and intimacy in their marriages. It's called, Sex, Passion and Intimacy: Keep the Fires of Passion Burning. I think there are so many couples that can benefit from a basic understanding of what blocks from from sexual intimacy, etc.

If a workbook isn't your "thing," try the open and honest dialogue approach. You have a right to intimacy in your marriage - let her know how it feels not to be connected to her in this way (in a non-critical way).

__________________
Lisa Brookes Kift, MFT

Author The Premarital Counseling Workbook for Couples - and
The Marriage Refresher Course Workbook for Couples

Creator of The Toolbox at LisaKiftTherapy.com
Marriage, Relationship and Emotional Health

MarkTwain

He needs to build up to that point internally first. It's no use just saying the words, or being angry and saying the words. You have to be able to say the words and be ready for the possibility of a "NO" answer. And if you get a "NO" you have to be prepared to call it a day.

Only at that point can such a strategy work. And if it does work, there will be a catch. She will hate herself for giving in, and will no doubt be looking to get even. It's a tough situation. Knowing what I know now, I would probably walk away, becuase if someone does not want to please you, it's hard to make them want to. It's a matter of how much they value you. As a wise guy once told me: "No one will value you more highly than you value yourself". Just being willing to walk away, makes you worth more - in your own eyes and the other person's.

Why is gold worth more than silver? Because gold is more scarce. No other reason.

__________________
MT
See me on: www.marriagesatsang.com

MEM11363

Star,
It is very rare for a woman to be able to say to her man:

You are too loving, too nice. It is a total turn off. I need you to man up, stand up for yourself, and be tough when I am being a *****.

Going from being TOO loving/all over her with love all the time to "do you want to be married" is a brutal shock to a persons system. A normal person would be like "WTF?" yesterday you told me you loved me all day and today you are asking "should we end it?"

The GAMES as you call them are simply being - more attractive and less available. And they are solely a reaction to a woman who has shut down emotionally/sexually. The GAMES are way better then saying - have sex with me regularly even though you hate it - even though you are not turned on by me.

The GAMES create legitimate relationship fear. Like - oh yeah this guy I have been totally ignoring is now starting to ignore me. THAT behavior tends to produce a very positive desire in a woman.

I have always made my wife priority 1 - but I have a built in edge to me that prevents folks from mistreating me. Most of these guys don't have the edge needed for conflict - and sometimes lack the verbal skills. The games require neither.

Star

__________________
My Life, My Way -TWC.