VintageLeo

I am at my wits end. My wife and I are in our mid/late 30’s and have had an on again off again sexless marriage. We just celebrated our 9th anniversary and have been togther for 11. We have made a brief attempt at counseling but it did not work. She gets very hung up on the idea that going to marriage counseling equates to failure.

At least once a year we manage to re-connect sexually. This only lasts about a month. On the positive side, we are best friends and love each other deeply. Sure, we have the same issues that most couples have, job, stress, feeling like we need to make more money etc…, but all in all we are very tight. It is very rare for us to really fight.

To make matters worse, she has spent the last 2 years getting into phenomenal physical shape. She has always been beautiful and in decent shape but now she is buff and even more gorgeous. But she does not see it. I am one of those men who has a wife that other men covet. She loves this attention but still considers herself fat and ugly. FYI- she does not have an eating disorder and is not underweight. We have also had her hormones check and she is fine.

I am at a point where I feel that I am ready to explode sexually. I masturbate in secret a few times a week. But this barely takes the edge off. When I try to engage with her it rarely works. I am lucky if we have sexual contact once a month. This usually involves a 2-minute handjob when we shower together. In fact she tends to get upset, and sometimes angry, if I get aroused in the shower or when we cuddle and kiss.

I have tried bribing her with money (her idea) this does not really work. In October I paid her $200 to let me hump her butt and masturbate on her abs. She showed me something at the mall before Christmas that she really wanted. I jokingly asked her what would be in it for me. She looked me square in the eye and promised me more sex than I could handle. So for Christmas I spent more than $1000 and got it for her. Has the sex shown up? Not at all.

I have never been unfaithful to my wife. I have been exposed to temptation, but never been tempted. But now I honestly don’t know what I would do if I ever was in a situation like that again.

Last night we gave each other massages. It was beautiful and romantic. I took advantage of her sexual arousal and was able to bring her off with oral sex. I did not push her (aside from kissing and caressing her and thrusting lightly against her hands) to reciprocate though the evidence of my arousal was in her hands. Literally. She told me she was tired and asked if we could start up again this the morning. I have tried twice today to no avail. All I get is a dirty look and the mutter that “all men are pigs.”

There is probably not much you all can tell me since I have not gotten into all of the other details. But I just had to get this off my chest.
I am considering asking my doctor if there is a medication that can dampen my sex drive.

Choose2love

Wow. I feel for you, I really do. Based on what you wrote here, and minus any emotional or physical affair she may be having, I would have to say she either has a really low self image or a really low sexual drive... possibly a combo of the 2. If she has a low self image, then, the low sex drive will follow (especially since she is in good shape and there are no medical reasons). Since she doesnt see herself as attarctive, then in her mind she has inhibitions about being intimate with someone who really knows her. Think about it, how could she let go sexually with you if she isnt comfortable in her own skin?

Maybe be the one who gives her those physical admirations, and be a little more unavailable to her for a while? At this point, she knows you are there, committed, and willing and able. Since she also knows you well, she knows that you are lustful and wanting and its a bit of a game to get her in the mood (since you mentioned the $200 you gave her at the moment in exchange for the intersourseless encounter last year).

The Christmas bribe may not have worked as it wasnt a transaction... you gave her the expensive gift before she gave you what she promised to give you. Maybe next time buy her the something and then put it in her panties after you have gotten well into getting hot an dheavy! Thinking that you have to play such a silly game may leave you feeling used or resentful, but it may work. Maybe she gets a rush on the unknown and giving her the gift only after she has done her part of the deal may just do the trick. In other words, she has to earn the gift. Sucks, but when you are the one wanting... you have to take the reigns back somehow.

Sounds like she has a fantasy inside of wanting to get something for giving something.

BigBadWolf

Okay this is again the "nice guy" scenario exactly.

First, as for these "sexless marriages" I am seeing time and time on this forum, this is nothing short of EMOTIONAL ABUSE for the man. To understand this is first, sex is not just some frivolous carrot to be dangled in front of the man to sway him this way or that.

The good news is, this issue you are having, which is no sex with your woman, can be fixed quite quickly.

The bad news is this, you will have to begin to be the man enough to fix it.

The really bad news is this, if you are not willing to be the man enough to fix it, do not be surprised if soon there is another man in the picture, an "affair man".

Your woman is already showing the danger signs, to improve herself over two years physically, yet is still FEELING not pretty. This is danger danger danger, as she WILL be attracted to the man that makes her feel desirable.

But why is she not having sex to you, since she knows you find her disireable, I am sure you will ask.

The answer, is not going to be easy for you to hear.

Because she is not attracted to you. In fact, she is resenting you and does not respect you.

You can bribe and beg and hint and cry and anything in the world you want to, and these result will only get worse and worse for you. No sex, and eventually one of you may have the affair, and again do not be surprised if it is just as easily her and not you.

So she is resenting you for her insecurity, and you are resenting her for the lack of sex. This is the spiral of resentment.

She pushes you away, gives excuses.

These are merely tests that a woman will give her man, that you as a man are expected to stand up to her, to show her in action the mettle you are made of, that she is desirable enough to you that you are willing to stand for her, and to fight for her.

Up to now, you are not passing these tests, and your woman is resenting you for not passing these tests.

Here are the facts:

A woman is attracted to the man in control of himself and his environment, the dominant man.

Opposite of this, a woman will RESENT a "weak man".

A "weak man" will make a woman only feel insecure.

A "weak man" is mostly looking like this "nice guy" scenario, so in the dating world the "friend zone" or "love you like a brother", and in the marriage world is the "i love you but not in love with you". You are hopefully getting the idea.

So again if a woman is feeling sexual attraction, there is not insecurity.

Opposite of this, if a woman is feeling insecure, there is no sexual attraction.

There is either one or the other, but know it is always one or the other.


To fix this, will take the work on your part.

And the work is this, stop being a man who is acting like a woman.


Do not BEG for sex. Ever.

Also do not give this impression that you are such the "nice guy" you are "always faithful". Such an attitutude is poison to the relationship. This may seem backwards, but it is not.

Stop this attitude now, even though in your mind it may be so, it is not good to communicate to a woman that you are so much the "weak man" that you will settle for no sex and still follow her, and be content to be miserable in a sexless relationship with her, she will build resentment on top of resentment if you show her such "weakness".

It is not obvious always to a man, but such an attitude, which is simply this, to "put a woman on a pedastal", will only backfire.

This is because to a woman, when a man puts her on a pedastal, is actually making her feel like a "charity case" and kills her self-esteem and causes insecurity.

Instead, do these things that instead, make this very clear to your woman, that you are instead the type of man that could have ANY woman in the world that you desire, and it is your woman that you are desiring. Read this many times over and over if necessary, but get this attitude and understand it and how powerful your woman wants to see this attitude in her man.

And when you are presenting this attitude, that you can have any woman in the world, it is then that your woman will treasure it when you let her know YOU DESIRE HER, and this will light the fire inside her sexually for her man.

Because in this way, she is not longer a "charity case", but instead she is knowing she is feeling desired and feminine by a man that she is respecting and sexually attracted to.

So these things you are doing, hiding the masturbation, begging for sex, wanting the doctor to kill your sex drive, you need to understand how "weak" this is making you look to your woman, in attitude and behavior, and why all the TALK in the world, nor appeasement or bribing or begging, will do ZERO to help this sexless marriage.

In these scenarios, it is always action, and not words, that matter.

Again, a woman will find this kind of man irrestibly attractive: the man that is in control of himself, and his environment.

First things, get control of yourself:

You say your woman is getting herself into shape. That is fine, but what do you do to getting yourself into shape also?

How about the temper, or the addictions? Definity this attitude of being in defeat about sex, turn this around as well.

Also in your career, your dealings with others, your home, make sure you have a plan and your opinions are known in the running of these things. These things a woman will notice her man taking ownership of, and will respect him for it.

So in all things about yourself as a good man, make sure they are under control.

Start with these, and when it is in place, the relationship is needing to be in control as well.

This again is to STOP the begging or bribing for sex. That is not only not ever going to work, but it is digging yourself into a dangerous hole that leads to divorce or affairs!

Instead, make it clear in actions how you are seeing your woman. A long passionate kiss, and then walk away. When your woman is being "sassy", a firm swat on her rear end, and a stern look maybe, or a promise that you desire for her to meet you in the bedroom, naked, and you are expecting no backtalk, or to pin her on the bed, or grab her hair, and give her oral until she is screaming in orgasm. To do these things mostly even without saying a word, will be speaking very much in actions how desirable and beautiful your woman is, and she will be loving her man for it, and seeing very clearly the mettle her man is made of.

So know this if nothing else in this post, in the bedroom a woman is absolutely looking for her man to be the man, and will not forgive a man for being timid or afraid to make her feel feminine and a woman sexually, and emotionally.

This means being honest about your own sexual appetites, and having the attitude YES that absolutely this or that is what you want, and expect and you are either going to go for it yourself or tell her in no small way to "get busy", or whatever the appetite is demanding.

So when she sees that her man is truly being a man, she is feeling confident as a woman, and the barriers are coming down as her respect for you goes up. The insecurity is replaced by sexual attraction, and with sexual attraction is always intertwined the emotional connection, and emotional connection is opening the trust and communication to explore even more and more these sexual appetites.

So instead of spiral down into resentment, which you are both doing now, you will spiral up in sexual attraction and emotional connection.

Right now your woman is practically BEGGING you to be the good man she is looking for. Take the courage, to do these things in attitude and action, and not so much in words, to be the man she is looking for!

I wish you well.

VintageLeo

First, I want to thank you both for your responses. They have given me much food for thought.

Choose2 love- You have hit on a few things that have resonated. First, I do not think she is having an affair. But if either of us have the opportunity it is her. We both leave for work at the same time but she usually gets home 3 hours before me. However, in retrospect, something tells me I need to look into this more.

She does have a slightly depressive personality. And is inclined to be a bit of a "the grass is greener on the other side" type person. In fact, I am as well. I think this has led us to both be people who strive to better ourselves. However, counseling has ruled out a real depressive disorder in her. But she definitely does have low self image issues. For the first half of our relationship this was not too much of an issue. But it was definitely there. If anything I would say she had slightly more body image issues that the average person does.

But what really struck me was your comment about her getting a rush from needing to give something to get a reward. Over the years she has joked a few times that she thinks she would have made a really good high price/high society call girl. The comments have always been made in jest. Usually when you hear about some politician's scandal. This is something to keep in mind should I find a way to get us back on track. Perhaps as role play.

VintageLeo

BigBadWolf- I found your post interesting and in general you do have a point. But I am not sure if "manning up" across the spectrum of my situation is what is needed. While I am not domineering in our relationship, in most things (except sex obviously) I tend to be the leader. Also, my wife is a fiery independent, strong willed, immensely intelligent woman. She is also rather mercurial in her moods and emotions.

Professionally, I am anything but not in charge of myself and environment. In my career and organization I have risen farther and faster than my peers. I lead one of the largest and most successful departments in my organization. My bosses have openly told me that they are grooming me for advancement. Why then has this behavior ceased to translate into my sexual relationship with my wife? And is this really what is lacking? I do not know.

While I have never been an overly domineering person in previous relationships, I have only found myself with the "nice guy" problem in one of my relationships. By the way, she and I did become great friends and still are.

As for my physical condition. Four or so years ago I went back to school for a post grad degree. In the 3 1/2 years I was in school I did gain 15 lbs. Before going back I did work out regularly and was in good shape. But with school and a promotion at work something had to give. But since May 09 I have lost 20lbs and work out regularly again. I know that women at work and the gym are attracted to me. While I may not have the body of a Greek god, I know I am generally attractive. In fact, a young, pretty college student at the gym was hitting on me today. God Help Me!! I thought about her offer longer than I should have.

I have no addictions. And while I do have a temper, I never loose it. Not that I bottle it up or suppress it. But I do not act out.

Emotionally I am reserved. I used to be accused of being cold sometimes. But actually I feel things deeply. One of the things I have taken from the few counseling sessions we went to was the need to better express to my wife what I am feeling. It has been difficult but I continue to be aware of this. But I have learned that when I do speak to her about my feelings the conversation tends to refocus onto hers.

I should add that she is in the final year of her own post-grad degree. I know she is under a great deal of stress for the next few months. And about 4 or 5 years ago she had a long bout of UTI symptoms. This did put her off sex for a while. But found the problem and she got through it with some meds but mostly diet and exercise and has not had one in years. But since they often occurred around when we had sex (STD's, etc... have been ruled out in us both) I know she does worry about it. I think this is a major factor in our problems. The time frame also coincides with her becoming slightly more prudish. Yet, every year when we go on vacation and reconnect she can do things that would make a porn star blush.

I do know that before we met she had been in a relationship with a man that tried to overtly dominate her. This turned into an emotionally/mentally abusive situation for her because she would not be dominated in this way. (BBWolf- I am not saying this is what you advocate at all) She has shared that he effectively tried to suborn her will to his. She got herself out of the situation without the help of others. The relationship lasted about 3 years. It was only in the last year that the domination and abuse started. When I met her she had ended the relationship and had moved on and had a couple of casual relationships.

As for masturbating in secret. I'm not running around hiding like a little boy. I merely wait for her to go to sleep. Or do it on the rare occasions when I am home alone. But truth be told, I do not tell her I am doing it.

Knowing this what would you all see as a next step? Our home life is in order except for the sex. Though we are secure in our house, finances etc.. I do know that she will always think we are on the verge of homelessness until we have $10 million in cash hidden under the floorboards.

However, I have found the Man-up thread. I will delve into it. But I think our situation is more stress and behavior related. When I made my post I was more depressed about this than ever before. That extreme has passed for now.

I am also not sure how likely it is that I will be able to get her to agree to counseling. Previous attempts have only resulted in a handful of visits each. She feels a great deal of stigma in it.

If anyone should have thoughts please send them my way.

MEM11363

She is 100 percent aware of what she is doing.

So what does she gain by keeping you in a state of sexual frenzy all the time?

A small number of women are sadists. They enjoy being cruel. Letting you get her off and knowing you were desperate to be satisfied and then refusing what would have taken a couple minutes with her hands - which is lame enough as it is......

Are you really ok with being sexually degraded/tormented like this on an open end basis. I sure wouldn't be. That is really really ugly. And it is BLIND obvious she doesn't want a therapist because they are going to point out all this toxic stuff and they are an objective observer so it would embarrass her.

Are you willing to ratchet the interaction up one level? If so, send me a private message. Because if you don't take this interaction up - she is simply going to keep doing this until you die or have a heart attack.....

MEM11363

I have a low libido wife. We have a fantastic sex life - BOTH of us do. Because of the following:

She has taught me how to gradually turn her on when she does not start out in the mood. So she can be at zero - and I can in the course of 30-60 minutes get her hot enough to actively want sex.

I have learned the 3 factors that drive a low libido spouse to make more effort to compromise on frequency:

love - they do it because making YOU happy makes them happy. This is deep/true love. I know it, because I live it, this drivers more then half my sexual encounters with me wife.
guilt - they do it because seeing you visibly tense/withdrawn due to sexual starvation - makes THEM feel bad - AS IT SHOULD
fear - this one is NECESSARY at the start when you try to reboot a sex life that was always a joke. This is where you have to speak the way women speak. A man might say fix it or I want a divorce. A woman would say: Our sex life is simply not even close to acceptable to me. I need to know you are committed too working on this with me, and will make it your top priority - as will I - until we resolve it. AND THEN LISTEN
If she immediately agrees and then engages and starts to fix it great. IF NOT, then the next conversation is, I am afraid of the health and even the eventual survival of our marriage if you are not willing to commit to solve this problem. And then listen and don't say much at all. And what she says does not matter much UNLESS she is talking about behavioral things you do/don't do that turn her on/off in and out of bed.

But don't let her get away with the typical deceitful responses:
"I don't feel safe with you"
"You don't help enough around the hosue" - this is pure misdirection at this point. If she hasn't been banging on you relentlessly about that up until now, then it isn't a real problem. Just a conversational sleight of hand. Don't fall for it.

BigBadWolf

These threads, often it is with a very quick summary to try to give assesment and advice on what I am thinking is proper to say, to some men to be very blunt, to others, to be more subtle.

In some cases, it is clear that a good man is by his own admission "defeated", and is needing to start even laying the simple foundation before beginning on the real work. To many of these men, I am only to speak little if anything at all on their situation, for not wanting to cause confusion and frustration.

On other cases, it is looking like a good man has a solid foundation, and is missing usually the minimum piece of the puzzle, but sometimes this piece is the final and most important.

I would say that, at your own description, this latter is your situation. You are describing the good foundation, and seem to be of the mettle to hear what I will say, so I will be very honest and blunt to your scenario.

Also expect to see this responses may be somewhat startling and potentially offensive to the public reading this thread, but this is always the case when it is not understood, that this reply is directed to VintageLeo, but is perhaps helpful to other good men and women who may also read it and benefit from it.

These "mercurial" moods and emotions, these are going to go hand in hand to a relationship where the woman is wanting to see, indeed, her man to "man up" as you are saying, but not necessarily "across the spectrum". Instead, to "man up" in a very narrow spectrum, which is always this, the sexual and emotional responsibilities of the relationship.

When a woman is wanting to see her man be a man, it is just this, she WILL test him. This is no matter how much the "good husband" you are, or if you are married 1 year or 30 years. Take this to the bank.

Even if you do not believe it, or she does not believe it, or is most likely, letting religious or political correct or cultural beliefs cloud the issue.

Understand that in sexual and emotional relationships, actions speak louder than words, and words may say politically correct terms as "independent" or "strong willed" your woman is described, but you are seeing yourself the action is moodiness, emotional ups and downs, and most importantly, no sex.

Those actions are speaking the loudest, and are making it most clear what the solution is.

This behavior translate to the sexual relationship in this area always: Your attitude.

If you indeed carry this attitude, that you are dominant in your career, and the good provider, and in every sense of what is described as "your ego" to the bedroom, then it is to your advantage.

If, on the other hand, these other things creep in insidiously, it is trouble:

Laziness: Are you thinking that your career success is excuse to "rest on the laurels", and do not also apply this saviness and creativity to making sure your woman KNOWS YOU DESIRE HER? For example, do you plan dates, to the minute, without asking your woman "honey what do you want to do tonight?" Also make sure your woman is knowing what you desire, to even go so far to tell her "wear this skirt that I like" or "have on that dress that I like", instead to sit back in some form of cruise control thinking your woman is not needing to know as a matter of fact that she turns you on, and more importantly, you are worth it to her to turn you on.

Control: A woman is irrestibly attracted to a man that is in control of himself and his environment. Does your woman see you in control of your career, or does she see your career controlling you. Be careful on this, many many men have tripped on this one. To make it a point, every now and then, to deliberately cancel some meeting, or put off some project because your woman is worth your immediate attention, and to let her know this, will go miles to remedy this. Do not miss this.


Do not assume you are not still a "nice guy" in this relationship even still, since you admit that you are not getting sex as often as you desire.

I will not say this just anywhere, but this is the fact, the two barometers to measure how a woman connects with her man are just this, how she reacts to his jealousy, and how often she is turned on fire sexually for her man.

The first is to tell the emotional connection, the latter is to tell the sexual connection. These are intertwined, and where there is one, there is the other, and where one is withering, the other is also withering.

What would happen if you were to, even humorously, share this gym flirting with your wife. How would she react?

It is good to communicate this attitude with your woman, that "you could indeed have any woman in the world, yet desire her."

Do not fall into the trap to make your woman feel perfectly 'safe' in the relationship, this is concerning your sexual and emotional connection to her, the "i will never leave you no matter what" trap. This sounds good on flowers and love notes, but in practice it ultimately helps neither of you and will lead to misery.

Excellent.

Actually I was going to say this same thing, instead to worry about communicating what you are feeling, which is rarely the problem, instead ask her how she is feeling, which is 9 times out of 10 what is the real need but looks bad to come out to say.

This may sound backwards or condescending, but really doesn't need to go much further.

Again, this is very much the case between the man and a woman, to be viewed as being "open with emotion" or some such thing, simply ask your woman how she is feeling.

But be sure to listen, and ask even again, and maybe repeat back what she has told you. This is not to be missed!


Porn star blush! Exactly this type of thing lets me know that both you and your woman are looking for this sexual breakthrough!

This right here is perhaps deserving it's own thread.

First, do not confuse the dominant man with an abuser, one is a good man who is honest enough to say what he wants and courageous enough to go for it. The other, the abuser, is a 'weak man' who is masquarading as a strong man to hide behind.

In this area, much the same with a woman who has been sexually abused in her history, is the same exact trap.

The good man is afraid to dominate sexually and honestly, and holds back his masculine leadership, because he doesn't want to be confused as the "bad man" who was abusive.

While good intentions, this does one thing and one thing only, kills the sexual attraction of the woman to her man, and makes the good man sexually frustrated and resentful.

The solution is simple, do not hold back on expressing your sexual appetites, which is simply this, do not be dishonest today trying to be a "nice guy" because you don't want to look like some abuser from the past. Your woman will NOT confuse the two.

Again, do not let the abusive man in the past dictate your relationship in the present.

This is sometimes difficult to express, but simply this is making the abusive man in the past dominant over the good man today.

Instead, if the good man is dominant, it makes the abuse man MUCH MUCH smaller and smaller in the mind of the woman. Therefore the sexual relationship and emotional connectiong are flowing from the leadership of the good man today, not limited by the abuse man in the past, or even the abuse man in the mind of the woman.

This is the same for sexual abuse, as emotional abuse or even the "battered spouse".

It is desirable to incorporate masturbation into the sexual relationship over time, as there is still much emotional connection to be made even in masturbation, giving your woman the opportunity to participate and even get turned on, to maybe lead to other things, maybe not, but even so is letting her know she is desirable to you.

Even this simple, but striking opportunity, to masturbate over top of your woman, to do so without asking to simply show in action, not words, that you are practically "losing control" because she is so desirable to you.

I cannot emphasize this enough, when you have in all other things shown self control and restraint in all areas, yet in the sexual area giving the attitude that your woman is making you on the verge of "losing control", this is to make her opinion of herself SKYROCKET.

And I have said many times, where there is insecurity, there is not sexual attraction. And where there is sexual attraction, there is not insecurity.

Work on the sexual dominance. From what you have written, your solution is just to work on these things for starters, to be open about your own sexual appetites and desires, to show in action, and not so much words, how you feel about your woman, what you want from your woman, and begin to do these things that show your leadership and dominance in the sexual relationship.

I wish you well.

Star

I really don't know what to suggest here, but one thing I would say is, that you should NEVER have to pay for sex with your wife, that's just wrong. Have you tried talking to her about the situation? I think you need to give her a wake up call.

__________________
My Life, My Way -TWC.

MEM11363

BBW is SO RIGHT ABOUT THIS STUFF. I do a lot of what he describes and it works amazingly well.

And making a woman feel overly safe is a two edged nightmare. One it makes her bored and causes her to push the envelope to see just how much crap you will tolerate. And two it screams out "I DON'T DESERVE YOU SO I WILL LET YOU TREAT ME AS BAD AS YOU WANT AND WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NO MATTER WHAT". A woman does NOT like being with a man who doesn't think he deserves her.

If you aren't willing to risk the relationship over being treated well - then you are totally lost and she will treat you like crap until she finds a man who will stand up to her or you two just grow apart even if she continues to spend your ever growing salary.

I would almost bet my car that if you took control, told her she was being naughty and you were going to punish her, spanked her and then had sex with her - she would lose her mind in the most positive way.

Star

Omg!!!

__________________
My Life, My Way -TWC.

MEM11363

As for the "buy me that and then I will give you as much sex as you want" - the ONLY answer to that is: After you give me as much sex as I want for a while - we can come back here.

Your problem is she says jump and you say how high. Then you jump the way she wants - and she loses even MORE respect for you.

Star

I cannot understand any man paying for sex with this WIFE!! it's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

__________________
My Life, My Way -TWC.

MEM11363

I agree in theory. But maybe if I was as starved as the OP. But I would never ever pay first. And the fact that he DID pay first tells me that he is totally "nice guying" himself out of the bedroom.

turnera

Exactly.

The next time she says she wants something, tell her you'll buy it for her - AFTER you have sex.