Sex in MarriageSexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.
My wife & I have sex much less than I would like. We only have sex 2-4 times a month. She treats it like a chore.
I have tried everything, from doing everything around the house (to reduce stress), to romantic date nights, to relaxing days @ the spa, to trips, flowers, couples counseling, and even simply ignoring it for extended periods of time (to hopefully eliminate the "elephant in the room"). She gave me a "coupon book" to "spice things up," and has yet to let me even use one. She is always too tired, regardless of whether or not she slept last night, all day, not at all, or too much.
I am beginning to feel disconnected. I am frustrated. I have tried sharing this with her, but she gets angry. She didn't want to go to couples counseling anymore.
I am at a loss, and am almost blown away by how this makes me feel towards my relationship, and ultimately her...
I don't want to be in a sexless marriage, and feel almost like I should cut my losses... If she isn't willing to work on it (or even HEAR me), what chance do we have?
Was she ever highly sexual with you?
If so, when did that change?
Any ideas what caused the change, weight gain/you or her?
Kids?
You being TOO nice to her?
If it was fairly sudden could it be an affair/emotional or physical?
Are you in general more loving to her than she is to you? Are you typically saying I love you first, more often? Touching, hugging her more often than she approaches you? Talking to her first/more than she talks to you?
Have you ever tried the "more attractive/less available" strategy with her? That strategy is simply to do the things that make a person more desirable - could be:
- going to the gym,
- making an effort to be more upbeat/more fun to be around - while being around LESS OFTEN
- learning a new skill etc. while at the same time deprioritizing her. Stop doing more than your fair share around the house.
If she complains that you aren't doing as much you simply offer to make up a schedule of what needs to be done and split it fairly. Tell her that if either of you feels the split is not even at the end of that conversation their remedy is to alternate weeks.
Meaning if she insists that doing A,B,C and D = W,X,Y and Z and you disagree you alternate weeks.
AND hold her to it. That will be hard - but you need to stop trying to obtain sex by being her housemaid/cook. That approach simply makes you look weak and is a turn OFF.
Stop taking her to dinner - instead go rock climbing together or do something else that at least feels dangerous.
This approach WILL cause conflict for at least a while. And plan on getting zero sex during that time. In fact don't even try. If she flirts with you laugh and play along but DON'T make a pass at her. Wait for her to take YOU to bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrnyc
My wife & I have sex much less than I would like. We only have sex 2-4 times a month. She treats it like a chore.
I have tried everything, from doing everything around the house (to reduce stress), to romantic date nights, to relaxing days @ the spa, to trips, flowers, couples counseling, and even simply ignoring it for extended periods of time (to hopefully eliminate the "elephant in the room"). She gave me a "coupon book" to "spice things up," and has yet to let me even use one. She is always too tired, regardless of whether or not she slept last night, all day, not at all, or too much.
I am beginning to feel disconnected. I am frustrated. I have tried sharing this with her, but she gets angry. She didn't want to go to couples counseling anymore.
I am at a loss, and am almost blown away by how this makes me feel towards my relationship, and ultimately her...
I don't want to be in a sexless marriage, and feel almost like I should cut my losses... If she isn't willing to work on it (or even HEAR me), what chance do we have?
Nothing worse than having sex with someone who really doesn't want to have it in the first place (treats it like a chore). Takes all the pleasure out of it. Almost not worth even having. It is sad when people with mismatched drives are together. If this is very important to you, then you need to let her know it. If she still doesn't care, then you need to look at other options (there are many). Have a very frank discussion with her. Ask her to compromise at the very least.
Was she ever highly sexual with you?
If so, when did that change?
Any ideas what caused the change, weight gain/you or her?
Kids?
You being TOO nice to her?
If it was fairly sudden could it be an affair/emotional or physical?
Are you in general more loving to her than she is to you? Are you typically saying I love you first, more often? Touching, hugging her more often than she approaches you? Talking to her first/more than she talks to you?
Have you ever tried the "more attractive/less available" strategy with her? That strategy is simply to do the things that make a person more desirable - could be:
- going to the gym,
- making an effort to be more upbeat/more fun to be around - while being around LESS OFTEN
- learning a new skill etc. while at the same time deprioritizing her. Stop doing more than your fair share around the house.
If she complains that you aren't doing as much you simply offer to make up a schedule of what needs to be done and split it fairly. Tell her that if either of you feels the split is not even at the end of that conversation their remedy is to alternate weeks.
Meaning if she insists that doing A,B,C and D = W,X,Y and Z and you disagree you alternate weeks.
AND hold her to it. That will be hard - but you need to stop trying to obtain sex by being her housemaid/cook. That approach simply makes you look weak and is a turn OFF.
Stop taking her to dinner - instead go rock climbing together or do something else that at least feels dangerous.
This approach WILL cause conflict for at least a while. And plan on getting zero sex during that time. In fact don't even try. If she flirts with you laugh and play along but DON'T make a pass at her. Wait for her to take YOU to bed.
I am definitely "too nice," however I am pretty sure that is one of the things that attracted her to me (she had been dating jerks).
Weight hasn't changed much, but the "two year" mark of us being together seems to be about the time I recall the change.
We don't have kids, although she wants some "soon." (not likely w/o sex...).
As far as being highly sexual, she made us "wait" a long time in the beginning (which was uncharacteristic of her, by her own admission). Then it was great for a while. I suspect we have always had a delta between her drive & mine, and it has just gotten worse.
I will try your approach above. Right now, I am just fuming due to an unrelated (or, likely related) issue. We rarely fight/argue, but today has started off pretty badly.
Russ,
I have tried to talk with her. She "knows" how important it is to me, but "doesn't know what to do about it" (and isn't willing to do the counseling, reading of books I have bought, or otherwise).
I truly feel like she has found "comfort" in my supportive nature, the fact that she can rely on me, and that she has slowly decided sex isn't important to her, regardless of how I feel.
I feel like a roommate.
Ironically, in the bit I know about her past, she had similiar issues in her prior long term relationships (they all ended up sexless after a year or two).
What REALLY got my goat last night (and why I am pissed this morning) is that she got up in the middle of the night (after again turning me down), and spent some time on facebook, only to come back and want to have sex with me. I was too tired @ 3am. She left her computer logged in, and it was one of her "one night stand's" pictures (from before her & my time) up on the screen. My mind is assuming the worst, that picture (or the memories/emotions it created) "turned her on," as 3 hours earlier she had zero interest.
I know I can't talk with her about it, as the last 10+ times I bring up sex (in ANY context) she turns callus/cold, responds sharply (as if to say don't even bother bringing THIS up...).
I feel for you man. I have had the talk with my wife too (very similar situation). Her drive has steadily gone down over the last 4 years to the point where she really only asks me for it once every 5-7 weeks (just before her period, which is now becoming irregular). There are a variety of reasons for this (which I have discussed earlier), but she doesn't want any kissing, foreplay, etc. just the act itself and only for about 10 minutes and she's done. I have to keep asking her for it if I want it more than once every month and a half (doesn't do much for your ego), and then she will give in about 30% of the time and have it with me, but it is also like yours (hurry up and finish). I can't talke to her about it anymore either. She just gets irritated by it and defensive (like its not a problem for me, so it shouldn't be a problem for you). She has even gone so far as to tell me that if I want to kiss other women (she won't kiss anymore) I can (WTF?). Look back at my options and pick one of them. You can't change her, or force her to desire you. As long as there aren't other issues at work here, you are going to just have to live with it. I know that for me, if it weren't for my 3 kids, I would have left a couple of years ago, and to be honest, she probably would have too.
Damn russ101...samething with my wife although we've been together 17 yrs..I truly understand the 'chore' thing..I wish I had noticed it earlier like you guys because it ate away at me a little at a time to where I thought I was not good enough and something might be wrong with me which led to resentment towards her..fortunately or unfortunately I know now there is nothing wrong with me, but my desire and passion for her is at 0. After our separation I also see I could have done a lot more to maybe keep her drive alive...but it's all hindsight now. good luck jrnyc..I am trying to re-ignite my passion and desire for my wife.
We are in year 21. I would describe our sex life as good to great all the way through. We have 3 kids - youngest is 14.
Apparently that is rare. So I will simply tell you what I believe, I don't think my W is very unusual we do have a big gap in raw desire level. However - because it is important to ME - that makes it important to her. And because she makes the effort to make ME happy, I always make the effort to make her happy.
For my wife to be happy - she needs a certain amount of conflict. For her to feel desire, she needs a special blend of conflict, and just a light touch of reserve on my part.
But I also know her long list of turn ons (me dressing nicely, etc), and equally long list of turn offs and I do the ons, and avoid the offs.
As for conflict, when something happens I don't like I IMMEDIATELY say so in a sharp tone. I don't yell/scream or say stupid things. I just tell her why I don't like what is happening. If it is important to me - I use the magic phrase "that is unacceptable to me". At that point she can apologize and promise to avoid a repeat OR I turn the emotional temperature down 10/20 degrees. This is NOT about being cold/hostile. Those things imply anger. Anger tends to be draining to the angry person. And makes the recipient defensive instead of - umm - anxious.
Instead, that lower temperature means I am spending less time with her. I am not friendly/warm - I am neutral. AND I am less helpful/agreeable. Not jerky - just not my usual delightful self.
Now this only works because she likes my baseline behavior which is - fun/happy/agreeable - but a bit reserved until she approaches me - for a hug/kiss/ILY/sex. I drop the reserve when she approaches me because that is her signal she wants me to.
In conflict, I can sustain the neutral/indifferent thing as long as it takes for her to approach me for resolution. BTW - resolution often happens immediately - she is naughty, I call foul - she apologizes - I accept on the spot - we move on. Same is true in reverse.
But the main factor to keep in mind is that until you back off and let HER chase you - your sex life is going to be bad/non existant.
The worst tactic is to be in the room with her - and ignore her when she interacts with you. The best - IME - is to be home less often and when home doing some activity that is fun for you. Let her ask you to spend time together. Say sure - but don't act grateful like she is doing you a favor. Make it fun for her and then go back to doing your thing.
Have you ever done the dominant thing in bed? Works well for most women.
Many women are hunters - they LIKE to hunt. Once they catch and subdue their prey - they become super bored turned off. Being too nice is the first symptom of being subdued.....
As for the FB thing - my wife is free to do ANYTHING she wants to get herself turned on as long as it does not involve flirting with other men. So if she has/had old pictures - thats fine. If she were to email/chat/flirt with an ex - which she never has to my knowledge - I would ask her to stop and if she didn't would start doing the same thing myself in a very blatant way.
She "liked" you for being nice, now she is actively turned off by it. Do NOT have unprotected sex with her until you fix your interaction pattern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrnyc
I am definitely "too nice," however I am pretty sure that is one of the things that attracted her to me (she had been dating jerks).
Weight hasn't changed much, but the "two year" mark of us being together seems to be about the time I recall the change.
We don't have kids, although she wants some "soon." (not likely w/o sex...).
As far as being highly sexual, she made us "wait" a long time in the beginning (which was uncharacteristic of her, by her own admission). Then it was great for a while. I suspect we have always had a delta between her drive & mine, and it has just gotten worse.
I will try your approach above. Right now, I am just fuming due to an unrelated (or, likely related) issue. We rarely fight/argue, but today has started off pretty badly.
Russ,
I have tried to talk with her. She "knows" how important it is to me, but "doesn't know what to do about it" (and isn't willing to do the counseling, reading of books I have bought, or otherwise).
I truly feel like she has found "comfort" in my supportive nature, the fact that she can rely on me, and that she has slowly decided sex isn't important to her, regardless of how I feel.
I feel like a roommate.
Ironically, in the bit I know about her past, she had similiar issues in her prior long term relationships (they all ended up sexless after a year or two).
What REALLY got my goat last night (and why I am pissed this morning) is that she got up in the middle of the night (after again turning me down), and spent some time on facebook, only to come back and want to have sex with me. I was too tired @ 3am. She left her computer logged in, and it was one of her "one night stand's" pictures (from before her & my time) up on the screen. My mind is assuming the worst, that picture (or the memories/emotions it created) "turned her on," as 3 hours earlier she had zero interest.
I know I can't talk with her about it, as the last 10+ times I bring up sex (in ANY context) she turns callus/cold, responds sharply (as if to say don't even bother bringing THIS up...).
I agree on many of the things that MEM11363 says. Our main problem seems to be that on my important list sex is definitely in the top 3 things that is important to me. I'm not even sure that it is in the top 20 for my wife. Now to be fair, there are items on her important list in the top 5 that are really not not very high on mine list, and I have told her that I will try to make them a priority for her because it is important to her, but in the same way, I expect her to work on the items that are high on my list that are not on hers (sex mainly, although there are other things as well). She says that she will, and I have been working on items for her, but so far, I have seen nothing in respect to her working on some of my items, so I'm not sure I'm going to be trying much longer if I don't see her at least trying. I think that couples need to develop their own lists, then compare them, and try and work on the areas that are high on their spouses list and not high on their own. Marriage is a joint venture, a compromise. Each partner should be willing to give a little, in order to get a little. It should not be a one way street.
Russ - you said "Marriage is a joint venture, a compromise. Each partner should be willing to give a little, in order to get a little. It should not be a one way street." and I couldn't agree more. This may seem strange coming from a woman but I love sex. I have been married 17 years to my husband. We got pregnant the first time we had sex. Yep - romance in blossom there! We did the right thing and married. I was so young and didn't know really what sex was all about. Now I am 37 and feeling completely liberated. I know what sex is now. I was not getting "sex" - not really - for the past 17 years. I just had my first orgasm with my husband 2 weeks ago. yes - just as surprising to hear me say I love sex.
I contemplated leaving him. He was what I have learned is a "selfish lover". Twice a week whether we wanted it or not, we had "sex". Or at least HE did. He would never try to "pleasure" me. He thought that I orgasmed vaginally. I do not. Most women don't. (A very HIGH percentage do not) Tell ya what - have a couple of glasses of wine - forget the nice guy routine, jump into bed, pleasure her(orally and with your fingers) at least three times in a row - then have "sex" with her.
I could care less if my husband lasts 30 seconds or 30 minutes after something like that... How many chores you do or promises you make really don't matter much if you please your woman this way.
Yours truly, Married 17 years... Really Married 2 weeks....
If you ARE already doing this for your wife.... There is more happening than meets the eye. I would never leave a man that was as good to me as you seem to be to her.
Russ,
The thing is you need to honestly self assess - and then you need to have a blunt confirmation conversation with her.
There are 3 levels of attraction:
High: She desires you on a regular basis just from being around you
Moderate: She is capable of feeling desire for you - if you approach her the right way sexually/use the right foreplay
Low: She doesn't feel desire for you even when you approach her the ideal way
As for moderate - she might like the really slow/gentle approach - non sexual massage, followed by sensual massage followed by extended foreplay - then sex.
OR she might like the dominant approach where you take control and start telling her what to do. Dominant does NOT mean a selfish/quickie style of sex. It DOES mean that you take/keep control from start to finish.
If her desire is low, there might or might not be some core behavioral changes YOU could make to change that. If so, she likely knows what those are. If it is low and she isn't willing to TELL you what types of men/behavior/appearance she typically does find attractive, you will never fix this. If you are fat and she likes skinny - slim and she likes muscular - those are the simplest things to fix. They take effort but they are simple. If she likes tall and you are short - LOL - find that out now. If you are passive and she likes aggressive - maybe you can learn to be aggressive in bed - and maybe that will be enough for her.
The key is to get her to talk without YOU getting defensive.
Over the years my lovely wife has given me healthy constructive feedback on her desires many many times. Half what she wants more of - half what turns her off. I am almost always receptive and I don't get defensive. Hey I am grateful she is honest with me. Without that I would have destroyed her desire for me by now. So when you ask and she answers - listen/learn/improve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by russ101
I agree on many of the things that MEM11363 says. Our main problem seems to be that on my important list sex is definitely in the top 3 things that is important to me. I'm not even sure that it is in the top 20 for my wife. Now to be fair, there are items on her important list in the top 5 that are really not not very high on mine list, and I have told her that I will try to make them a priority for her because it is important to her, but in the same way, I expect her to work on the items that are high on my list that are not on hers (sex mainly, although there are other things as well). She says that she will, and I have been working on items for her, but so far, I have seen nothing in respect to her working on some of my items, so I'm not sure I'm going to be trying much longer if I don't see her at least trying. I think that couples need to develop their own lists, then compare them, and try and work on the areas that are high on their spouses list and not high on their own. Marriage is a joint venture, a compromise. Each partner should be willing to give a little, in order to get a little. It should not be a one way street.
I know that for me, if it weren't for my 3 kids, I would have left a couple of years ago, and to be honest, she probably would have too.
Believe me, I have thought about leaving... She has apologized "twice" for last night/this morning. I guess time will tell.
Quote:
But the main factor to keep in mind is that until you back off and let HER chase you - your sex life is going to be bad/non existant.
I think this is sound advice. She and I spent the majority of our free time together. I am going to start interjecting outside things into my schedule, and I am not yet sure how she will react. She isn't the jealous type, it is just that this has been our pattern for years.
Quote:
Do NOT have unprotected sex with her until you fix your interaction pattern.
MEM11363, I am not sure I understand this one. Are you inferring that she could be having an affair, or that this is the best solution to get back into the saddle?
Quote:
If you ARE already doing this for your wife.... There is more happening than meets the eye. I would never leave a man that was as good to me as you seem to be to her.
wowwidow, not sure if this was directed at me or russ. I don't quite understand her viewing of other pictures. She tells me she wishes she knew why her sex drive was low, and that it always has been. I don't think she would ever leave me (according to her), but that is just words. I know she has never "cheated." Who knows, I guess everyone is capable... I feel angry and frustrated that I do all of these things, and get "shut out" of the bedroom. I almost wish she would give me permission to go elsewhere (I would never ask for it).
Quote:
If her desire is low, there might or might not be some core behavioral changes YOU could make to change that. If so, she likely knows what those are. If it is low and she isn't willing to TELL you what types of men/behavior/appearance she typically does find attractive, you will never fix this. If you are fat and she likes skinny - slim and she likes muscular - those are the simplest things to fix. They take effort but they are simple. If she likes tall and you are short - LOL - find that out now. If you are passive and she likes aggressive - maybe you can learn to be aggressive in bed - and maybe that will be enough for her.
MEM11363, I am not sure what else I can change. I am athletic, low BMI, runner, climber, hiker, cyclist, soccer player. She tells me daily how lucky she is, and how handsome I am. I am a good provider, open & honest, and more in touch with my emotions than most men I know. I don't drink to excess, party, or even really look around at all. I feel like I am trying to be the perfect man, and all I ask in return is that the things I express as "my needs" (more than just physical) be met -- or at least an effort towards meeting them.
JR,
I don't think she is having an affair. I said avoid unprotected sex - what I meant to say was avoid pregnancy at all costs until you solve this.
Smoothly and steadily cut back on the amount of time together and on the amount that you initiate loving activities like saying I love you, hugging/touching her, complimenting her on how she looks etc. When she initiates, you need to respond warmly but don't over respond.
If she asks you "what is wrong" or why you are doing this you need to calmly say "we are spending too much time together and that isn't healthy".
If she accuses you of doing this because you are angry about sex you need to stay perfectly calm and say "I am doing this because we have an unhealthy pattern of me trying to meet 100 percent of your needs while you ignore my core need for intimacy."
She may get upset and ask "are you thinking about leaving me"
That is a critical moment. The worst possible answer is to say "I would never leave you" that answer will nullify any/all other efforts. Far better to respond with "I am not happy - and until we rebalance this marriage I am going to stay unhappy"
Most women will persist in that situation - they will keep asking for reassurance. The only way to resolve the question is to say something along the lines of "asking about divorce is a ME focused question, when your husband says he is unhappy, asking a ME centered question isn't constructive. You need to learn to do what I would if the situation were reversed, ask me "what can I do to help?"
BTW - I am not sure she can do anything. For now, you need to mask your desire and create some emotional space so she WANTS to be closer to you. That is the most likely way to spark desire.
You should have her fill out a "lovebusters" questionnaire though. But I would only have her do that - after you have created some space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrnyc
Believe me, I have thought about leaving... She has apologized "twice" for last night/this morning. I guess time will tell.
I think this is sound advice. She and I spent the majority of our free time together. I am going to start interjecting outside things into my schedule, and I am not yet sure how she will react. She isn't the jealous type, it is just that this has been our pattern for years.
MEM11363, I am not sure I understand this one. Are you inferring that she could be having an affair, or that this is the best solution to get back into the saddle?
wowwidow, not sure if this was directed at me or russ. I don't quite understand her viewing of other pictures. She tells me she wishes she knew why her sex drive was low, and that it always has been. I don't think she would ever leave me (according to her), but that is just words. I know she has never "cheated." Who knows, I guess everyone is capable... I feel angry and frustrated that I do all of these things, and get "shut out" of the bedroom. I almost wish she would give me permission to go elsewhere (I would never ask for it).
MEM11363, I am not sure what else I can change. I am athletic, low BMI, runner, climber, hiker, cyclist, soccer player. She tells me daily how lucky she is, and how handsome I am. I am a good provider, open & honest, and more in touch with my emotions than most men I know. I don't drink to excess, party, or even really look around at all. I feel like I am trying to be the perfect man, and all I ask in return is that the things I express as "my needs" (more than just physical) be met -- or at least an effort towards meeting them.
thanks for the feedback. The worst part is that I am going to miss the time/activities with her too... If it gets our relationship back to where it needs to be, then it is worth it.
If you convey that to her - you undo the whole purpose of this change. If you do the "I am going to miss you too - but we have to do this - you are screwed and will remain celibate and will continue feeling unloved and tense"
You need to just start changing your schedule, be very matter of fact - friendly about it - like it is no big deal and keep changing it until she is acting like a WIFE towards you - and not like you are one of her girlfriends.
But during this time - you need to project that you are happy and be upbeat and fun to be around. Pretend like you are dating her and evaluating her suitability as a wife. YOU are evaluating HER - because it sure sounds like right now it is always the other way around.
There is a trick to this - being nice/fun/playful without being needy/clingy/lovey dovey. Learn it or learn to love your hand cause that will be the only action you get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrnyc
thanks for the feedback. The worst part is that I am going to miss the time/activities with her too... If it gets our relationship back to where it needs to be, then it is worth it.
Sexless, feeling unconnected 
