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Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Porn is extremely harmful to society and relationships. I believe that men and women are sexual beings and they are socialised differently about sex which causes disconnect, however porn further harms real connections between men and women.
Women have every reason to feel threatened by porn, and it is recognised that porn addictions or issue surrounding porn are regularly the source of marital problems, most relationship experts will tell you this.
Here is an interesting piece by Robert Jenson in media with a conscience.
Quote:
For the past decade I have been actively involved in movements to resist the United States’ imperial military activity in the world and to critique men’s sexual exploitation of women in pornography.
So, when the organizers of a “Heroes and Healthy Families” conference for U.S. Marines asked me to speak about the harms of pornography, I was a bit conflicted.
I am always eager to speak to men about the reasons they should not buy women in the sexual-exploitation industries (prostitution and strip bars, as well as pornography), arguments rooted in a larger radical feminist critique of a patriarchal system that routinely socializes men to pursue dominance and conquest through aggression and violence...
Porn owns you: Problems with online pornography
[Remarks to the 2010 “Heroes and Healthy Families Conference,” New Bern, NC.]
Mention “problems with online pornography” and many men will agree that it’s frustrating when porn videos take a long time to load on the computer.
So, I assume that many of you are asking, “What’s the problem with pornography?” After all, it’s just sex, and people have been having sex for a long time. It’s just a movie, and you don’t need to take it so seriously. Nobody forces the women to make porn, and they’re getting paid. And besides, I have right to look at what I want to look at. I mean, it’s not like porn causes rape.
What’s the big deal?
My task in the next half hour is to explain that porn is a big deal and that we should be concerned about men’s use of pornography.
I haven’t always held this view. When it comes to pornography, I have a pretty normal history for a guy from my generation. My grade school friends and I stashed a biker magazine in a secret hiding place, and we pulled it out regularly to stare wide-eyed at the pictures of women without tops. I ducked into my parents’ bedroom and looked at my father’s Playboy magazines. My junior-high friends and I snuck into theaters to see porn movies. And during my 20s I sometimes slipped into a porn store’s video booths or used porn magazines. And you know what I mean by “used,” right? I didn’t just watch pornography, I masturbated to pornography.
Those stories probably sound quaint to younger men who grew up online. But even though our digital world today offers instant access to any imaginable sexual image for anyone of any age at any time, one central fact about pornography hasn’t changed: Pornography is primarily a masturbation facilitator for boys and men.
And even though people today have an easier time getting pornography, and the pornography they get is more explicit and extreme, here’s another thing that hasn’t changed much: The ways that boys and men rationalize their use of pornography and scoff at criticism. Porn is just sex, just fantasy, just a way to relax. Porn is just not a big deal.
Here are three reasons it is a big deal.
First, the women who are used in the making of pornography are a big deal. They are people, human beings, just like you and me. The men in porn call them *****s, but in fact they are people. And when things happen to them, they feel, just like we do.
Here’s what we know about “*****s”: They don’t tend to come from wealthy families. They are more likely than other women to have been sexually abused as children. And they experience high rates of drug and alcohol abuse. Yes, women in pornography choose to perform, and they are paid. But we all recognize that choices are made in the real world under a variety of constraints; not everyone chooses from the same range of options. When you are using pornography, you are using those women.
But beyond debate about choices, let’s not forget: The women in pornography are real people. When you watch a pornographic movie in which a woman is penetrated anally and vaginally at the same time -- a double penetration, or DP, in industry jargon -- you are not watching a simulation. When you watch a double anal -- a woman being penetrated anally by two men at the same time -- that is happening to a real woman. Take a moment and ask yourself, how might that feel? If anyone is having trouble imagining that, come up on stage and I’ll ask a couple of your fellow Marines to take you through a double anal, and then you can report how it feels.
For that woman at that moment, pornography is not a fantasy. She’s not a *****. She’s a person, and she’s real.
Second, the stories that men tell in pornography are a big deal. Let’s think about the prevalence of multiple penetration scenes in pornography. Or gagging scenes, where men penetrate a woman’s throat so roughly that the woman gags. Or ATM, industry jargon for ass-to-mouth. That’s one of the stories that pornographers tell: A woman wants to take into her mouth a penis that was just removed from her anus or the anus of another woman.
Pornography is not just sex on film. It’s a particular type of sex based on a particular set of ideas. Sex in pornography is sex based on domination and submission -- male domination and female submission. Pornography is the sexualizing of domination and submission. It’s about making male dominance sexy.
Pornographers tell stories about women as the *****s in men’s imaginations. There are no *****s in the world; there are only women who are prostituted for the pleasure of men. The idea of a “*****” exists in the imaginations of men. And in the world of pornography, all women are *****s. In the story pornography tells, all women -- even the ones who pretend not be to *****s -- want to be treated this way. That’s because in pornography, all women are *****s. Women not only secretly want to be treated this way, but need to be treated this way if they are to be fulfilled as women. In pornography, it’s not that some women choose to be *****s -- all women are *****s, by nature.
That means in the story that pornography tells, every woman you have ever known is a *****. Your sister is a *****. Your mother is a *****. The woman who lives next door is a *****. If your favorite grade-school teacher was a woman, she was a *****.
Oh yea, by the way, Suzy -- you know, Suzy Rottencrotch, that lovely Marine slang term for your girlfriend -- she’s a *****, too.
They are all *****s. They all want to be ****ed hard, ****ed rough, ****ed ugly. They all want to be ****ed by all the Jodys (slang for the man who is having sex with a Marine’s wife or girlfriend) of the world. They all want you to ejaculate on their faces. That’s what *****s want. That’s what women want.
And don’t forget, that means if you have a daughter, that’s what she wants, because she’s a *****, too.
Even if pornography is, in some sense, a fantasy, we might ask: Why these fantasies? What do these fantasies tell us about us?
Third, the consequences of men’s use of pornography are a big deal. Using pornography doesn’t affect you, of course. You’re too smart and mature and sensible for it to affect you. But what if it affects the guy sitting next to you?
I talk about “the story that pornography tells” because all mass media tell a story. Even a 15-second television ad tells a story. Human beings are a story-telling species, and the stories we tell matter. Stories help shape our attitudes, and our attitudes shape our behavior. Stories affect how we think and therefore how we act.
Go back to that advertisement: Businesses spend about $400 billion a year on the stories delivered in advertising. Would they spend that money if those stories didn’t have some effect on how people think and behave? How about parents -- when they choose a book to read to their children, do they pick any book at random, or do they think about what kind of stories they want their children to hear?
There is a growing body of evidence from psychological laboratories, activists, therapists, and divorce lawyers about the effects of pornography. Wives tell us about how husbands become emotionally and sexually disconnected when they start using pornography habitually. Girlfriends report that their boyfriends who use pornography ask them to engage in sex acts that are routine in pornography but may be uncomfortable for her, such as anal sex. And increasingly some men are reporting that pornography has such a powerful grip on their sexual imaginations that they can’t become aroused or reach orgasm with a partner unless they are thinking about pornography.
And then there’s the question of men’s violence against women. Pornography does not cause rape. There was rape before pornography, and if pornography magically disappeared tomorrow there would be rape. Pornography does not turn otherwise nice men into savages. Pornography does not make men do it.
But pornography is part of a world in which men do it, in which men rape. Pornography is a de facto sex education curriculum for many boys, one of the places where we learn to use women for sex. Some men use pornography as a training manual, modeling their sexual abuse after what they see. Other men use pornography to groom young victims, persuading those victims that sex with an adult is OK by showing them pictures and films. And men report that addictive-like use of pornography can make it hard for them to distinguish between sexual fantasy and reality.
Here’s the unpleasant reality: We live in a society saturated with explicit material that presents women as sexual objects who find pleasure in being the targets of men’s cruelty in degrading scenarios. All those images are a mouse click away, and when you are bored with one image, there’s a more extreme image just another mouse click away. When you don’t want to deal with your partner, just click. When you don’t want to deal with your own emotions, just click. Just keep clicking. The pornographers hope you don’t ask questions about how you will feel when the clicking is over.
But as you click, remember this: You may own some pornography, but the truth is that pornography owns you.
Pornography is a big deal, just as the other two main sexual-exploitation industries -- stripping and prostitution -- are a big deal. These are the ways men buy and sell women’s bodies for their own pleasure. These are the ways men reassure themselves that they are strong and virile, in control. These are the ways men shore up their sense of being a “real man.”
The sexual-exploitation industries certainly deliver pleasure, and they do offer the illusion of control. But at what cost?
At what cost to the women who, in the words of several porn producers I interviewed, “get chewed up and spit out” by the porn industry?
And at what cost to you? Ask yourself that the next time you click the mouse. Men often say they use pornography to relieve stress, but for many men pornography creates stress. Think about that in the moment after you have an orgasm, in that moment when the intensity of the pleasure is over, and you’re left with yourself and that image on the screen.
In that moment, ask yourself who you are, and think about who you want to be.
In that moment, don’t worry about whether or not you’re a real man. Worry about whether you remember how to be a real human being.
Porn is not harmless, and people need to be aware of that and stop treating the issue so flippantly when clearly it has far reaching and often devastating effects on people and relationships.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
I am sure Ian will have some comments on that speach but here are mine:
1. Women are objectified and used - what about the rapidly growing amature porn segment which will eventually put commercial porn out of business.
2. The stories create reality - I think we each have our own fantasies regardless of porn. I don't think porn creates the fantasy other than giving us a visual representation of what already turns us on.
3. I do think this is a problem, not driven by porn but in our parents and society not teaching the younger generation how to be healthy sexual beings. Posted via Mobile Device
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Ah hubby, you are back and I see blissfully unchanged.
Ian will have more to say for sure. All of it will have a masculine slant and then he'll tell me he's not an angry man and understands women very well. He took a woman studies course, was an objectified naked model for an all woman's art school and surrounds himself with women who he treats with dignity and respect. He might even cop to the fact that he took place in a scientific study where he was given female hormones and menstruated through his urethra all for the sake of knowing women better.
One thing is always perfectly clear from Ian's posts; however, he doesn't know women. He only cares about men, their sexuality and why they don't get what they need. He doesn't care about the price women pay or how they feel and why they're doing what they do. He only speaks manspeak and won't learn humanspeak as a rule.
On that note, Syrum...couldn't agree with your article more
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hubby
I am sure Ian will have some comments on that speach but here are mine:
1. Women are objectified and used - what about the rapidly growing amature porn segment which will eventually put commercial porn out of business.
I have found through my research that amature porn tends to mirror main stream porn, which of course is rapidly hard core, and still women in amature porn are objectified and seem to the ones giving pleasure (no not allways) rather then recieving. You only have to look at the way they have sex to maximise the camera angle to realise most women are not going to orgasm from what is being done to them.
I do not believe that amature porn will put commercial porn out of business.
It sure seems to be making millions and millions, more then or as much as the hollywood movie industry.
Quote:
2. The stories create reality - I think we each have our own fantasies regardless of porn. I don't think porn creates the fantasy other than giving us a visual representation of what already turns us on.
Untrue , many studies I have read and confessions from people in the porn industry (producers, directors, stars etc) all say that in the industry they all ways looking to go one step further, more and more hard core etc, to excite and increase interest. therefore many things that people never even thought about many years ago like ATM and double anal were never even thought of by most men. And that in fact men's expectations of their wives and girlfriends have changed, they are asking for the things or fantasizing about the things they now see in porn.
in fact it is thought that young people see so many thousands of porn images before they are even 18, much of it quite hard core, and of course like pavlovs dog, this is created to turn them on and they are then conditioned to find things attractive that they would never have dreamed of them selves.
Porn is essentially robbing people of the right to develop their own sexuality.
Quote:
3. I do think this is a problem, not driven by porn but in our parents and society not teaching the younger generation how to be healthy sexual beings.
It is a multifaceted complex problem, involving parents, government, society at large. Parents cannot control their children's sexuality and most parents do not understand the problem with porn, our porn culture, and the saturation of porn in society and how it is changing and shaping the way we view sex and relate to each other in the bedroom.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
I wonder if those who love, love, love porn and think its the best thing since sliced bread, have ever done any kind of research on the effects of it. I wonder if any of it rings a bell or hits home for them? Oh wait, of course not because its something they do not want to hear or believe. Its hard to hear that there might be a tiny bit of truth to something they love so much. Just like its hard for a druggie to hear that heroine is actually harmful not only to themselves but to those around them who love them. For some reason Shelley Lubben comes to mind about why its harmful, but don't google it, because its not what you want to hear. So stay away.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey69
I wonder if those who love, love, love porn and think its the best thing since sliced bread, have ever done any kind of research on the effects of it. I wonder if any of it rings a bell or hits home for them? Oh wait, of course not because its something they do not want to hear or believe. Its hard to hear that there might be a tiny bit of truth to something they love so much. Just like its hard for a druggie to hear that heroine is actually harmful not only to themselves but to those around them who love them.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
I'm still failing to understand the connection between being "better prepared for your sexuality" and "porn."
What in the hell does one have to do with the other?
I'm ashamed of my sexuality, so I turn to porn,
I wasn't raised to accept my sexual being, so I need porn,
I'm a man and am not able to express myself except through porn,
I'm a man and visual, so I need variety, therefore I go to porn,
Come on, are men so closed off and living their lives with blinders on that they NEED to turn to porn to be masculine, satisfy their urges and their need for variety?
What a cop-out.
Like an earlier poster said - men will "continue" to make excuses for their overuse of porn and it just doesn't matter how it affects anyone else, least of all the women in their lives who didn't sign up for it.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Many of the people who are in porn, come from not so good back grounds. Getting in porn is their escape from whatever pain they are feeling. The porn industry will glam up everything. That's how its get a lot women, interested. "This life looks good, it looks flashy, its looks expensive and I will live in a lavish lifestyle, someone will take care of me, and love me after all, I also see dollar signs and all my troubles are over!" Its all pretty much BS. And while they are living this lovely, lavish lifestyle their self esteem is being torn down more and more by it.
I mean after all that is why most porn actors/actresses get into it in the first place, is they have no self esteem, they are constantly searching for love and to find themselves. They can't find it in that lifestyle. Its like,"look at me I hate myself so much that I have to have sex with every man/woman on film to make me feel better about myself." Bottom line is they make it come across as the people in porn are happy, that they secure with their looks and body, that you too can have a life of luxury,Really if that were the case they wouldn't need to broadcast it for everyone. Same for people who say, "Watch porn, its great, it will make you feel better, everyone does it." Sure for a time being it might take your mind off things, then what, then where are you? Right back to where you were before, feeling hopeless and helpless about your life and situation.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrum
Porn is extremely harmful to society and relationships. I believe that men and women are sexual beings and they are socialised differently about sex which causes disconnect, however porn further harms real connections between men and women.
Women have every reason to feel threatened by porn, and it is recognised that porn addictions or issue surrounding porn are regularly the source of marital problems, most relationship experts will tell you this.
Here is an interesting piece by Robert Jenson in media with a conscience.
Porn is not harmless, and people need to be aware of that and stop treating the issue so flippantly when clearly it has far reaching and often devastating effects on people and relationships.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrum
I have found through my research that amature porn tends to mirror main stream porn, which of course is rapidly hard core, and still women in amature porn are objectified and seem to the ones giving pleasure (no not allways) rather then recieving. You only have to look at the way they have sex to maximise the camera angle to realise most women are not going to orgasm from what is being done to them.
I do not believe that amature porn will put commercial porn out of business.
It sure seems to be making millions and millions, more then or as much as the hollywood movie industry.
Untrue , many studies I have read and confessions from people in the porn industry (producers, directors, stars etc) all say that in the industry they all ways looking to go one step further, more and more hard core etc, to excite and increase interest. therefore many things that people never even thought about many years ago like ATM and double anal were never even thought of by most men. And that in fact men's expectations of their wives and girlfriends have changed, they are asking for the things or fantasizing about the things they now see in porn.
in fact it is thought that young people see so many thousands of porn images before they are even 18, much of it quite hard core, and of course like pavlovs dog, this is created to turn them on and they are then conditioned to find things attractive that they would never have dreamed of them selves.
Porn is essentially robbing people of the right to develop their own sexuality.
It is a multifaceted complex problem, involving parents, government, society at large. Parents cannot control their children's sexuality and most parents do not understand the problem with porn, our porn culture, and the saturation of porn in society and how it is changing and shaping the way we view sex and relate to each other in the bedroom.
If TAM is handing out gold stars today, I will nominate you. VERY well said and I totally agree.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamison
MWIL, your statement, "excuse men for inexcusable behavior" Or excuse people for inexcusable behavior if you want to word it that way, I think thats exactly what is wrong with lots of people these days and why there are lots of unhappy marriages. I don't care what it all comes from, religion or not, it still a choice.
Whether its porn or something different, if a spouse is hurting or suffering because of another persons choices or behavior then that is a problem. Regardless of where it all started, why it started, or who started it etc.
Amen to that. You can pontificate all you want about the sexual problems created by religion or culture or blah blah and how harmless porn is but it does not help relationships that are adversely affected by porn. A lecture on sexual repression and the folly of objecting to porn does more harm than good.
I really like what Jamison says here. No matter what you views are about porn, the bottom line is, how is it effecting the most important relationships in adult life - spouse and children. You can chose to declare your right to view porn and the hell with how it effects those around you or you can chose to forgo the privilege of viewing porn for the sake of those important relationships.
I wonder what is the proportion of married men who spend hrs every day viewing porn or who are addicted? It takes time away from interaction with their kids, wife and being engaged in work life effectively. How does it affect how they view sex with their partner and what they want sexually? How many woman lose respect for men who spend hrs viewing porn but cannot seem to muster the time or energy to fix a faucet leak. How does it effect a woman sexual desire for a man who views porn?
We have not yet seen the full extent of internet porn on the ability of men and woman to maintain long-term relationships or even to enter into relationships. The generation coming of age is the first ever to have grown up with easy access to porn. Boys learn about sex from watching porn. Problem is porn is based solely on male pleasure which is OK if the desire is to have sex with men. It is far less helpful if a man wants to have sex with woman.
If he expects the penis worship porn style, he will have a hard time holding onto a woman. But then again he can still go to bars and pick up woman who don't know how unskilled he is for one night stands. That should satisfy his primal urge to spread his seed but it will be a problem when he wants to find someone to love him, and have his kids.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine602
Amen to that. You can pontificate all you want about the sexual problems created by religion or culture or blah blah and how harmless porn is but it does not help relationships that are adversely affected by porn. A lecture on sexual repression and the folly of objecting to porn does more harm than good.
I really like what Jamison says here. No matter what you views are about porn, the bottom line is, how is it effecting the most important relationships in adult life - spouse and children. You can chose to declare your right to view porn and the hell with how it effects those around you or you can chose to forgo the privilege of viewing porn for the sake of those important relationships.
I wonder what is the proportion of married men who spend hrs every day viewing porn or who are addicted? It takes time away from interaction with their kids, wife and being engaged in work life effectively. How does it affect how they view sex with their partner and what they want sexually? How many woman lose respect for men who spend hrs viewing porn but cannot seem to muster the time or energy to fix a faucet leak. How does it effect a woman sexual desire for a man who views porn?
We have not yet seen the full extent of internet porn on the ability of men and woman to maintain long-term relationships or even to enter into relationships. The generation coming of age is the first ever to have grown up with easy access to porn. Boys learn about sex from watching porn. Problem is porn is based solely on male pleasure which is OK if the desire is to have sex with men. It is far less helpful if a man wants to have sex with woman.
If he expects the penis worship porn style, he will have a hard time holding onto a woman. But then again he can still go to bars and pick up woman who don't know how unskilled he is for one night stands. That should satisfy his primal urge to spread his seed but it will be a problem when he wants to find someone to love him, and have his kids.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
One day women will be secure enough to handle their men watching a healthy dose of porn. It'll probably ne the same day men are comfortable with their women going solo on a routine basis. Porn in one form or another has been around for ages. Just like everything else in life, moderation is key. Also, your man looks at porn. Yes I'm talking to you. Forcing him to do it "underground" only adds to the likelihood it becomes a problem for him and you. Posted via Mobile Device
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
Kobo,
For me it has nothing to do with security. Read what Syrum wrote about the commercial porn industry. THAT is what I have a problem with.
Ack! I broke my own rule. I swore I would never post about porn again but I just did. I feel like The Godfather.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read...
"One day women will be secure enough to handle their men watching a healthy dose of porn".
And one day women and men will be secure enough within themselves to not feel the need to show everyone in the world their bodies and what they can do for a dollar on a screen.
Believe it or not, those people in porn are NOT secure that is why they have chosen something false to make them feel better. You take their job away and they are still left with being a shell of a person. Porn makes others believe they are secure.
Re: What Porn did to a Marriage - Interesting Read... 
well said.
