Trenton

Catherine, this is how I feel as well and I'm not having it. I think women under value themselves and what they give up ALL THE TIME and have been doing it since the beginning of time.

I don't buy it at all though. I value myself too much and I value all the women around me, even those that continually under value themselves or disagree with me on this.

I truly believe that you summed up my frustration with this entire hot topic.

I also read many of the men's posts on these forums and shudder to think that my husband is too smart to be honest with me about it as well. It really creates a trust issue for me and yet I tell myself this is unfair...to judge all men based upon a few men here. I think also that my insecurity comes from knowing that many of the things I do, I do only to please him, but have to be good enough at it so that he thinks I'm enjoying it as much as he is.

This unspoken lie from so many women's lips is not talked about either, but I believe we all know it and can remember a time that something wasn't necessarily ultra enjoyable but we powered through so that the man could cum. Ironically, since many women won't own up to this or shout it from the roof tops (unlike a man's shameless screaming about how his wife is a prude and won't please him), we work against our own happiness as a gender and raise a man's expectations even more.

I will also say that, like you, I can admit that although I find enjoyment in our love/sex life, there are times I feel as if I give far too much for what I receive in return and this overflows into our every day life. There is something about this basic injustice that irks me.

Why is it that it seems for one to win, one has to lose? It seems at times that men are not on the woman's side at all, and far, far, far worse, women aren't on women's side either.

IanIronwood

Perhaps it is unfair. But maybe not. While we've been discussing this topic over the last week or so, and I've had a few male supporters chime in in my defense, I've gotten more positive, private messages in support from men (from "God, I wish I had the balls to say that!" to "You know, I never thought of it that way, but you're right!") than y'all would be comfortable with. Like it or not, at least some of what I have said has resonated strongly with many men.

From a female perspective, that's likely to make you a little nauseated, and I can understand that. You don't want to think that beneath the intelligent, civilized exterior of the men in your life there lies a sex-crazed, egotistical beast who's always going to be dissatisfied with your sexual performance and feeling regrets about trading freedom for marriage. That's a really appalling thing to think about the men you love.

Thing is, it's only appalling if you insist on using an exclusively female perspective of love and marriage and sex, instead of appreciating it from the male point of view. Just like trying to appreciate female sexuality from the male point of view is going to be utterly frustrating and confusing to men (as it is) if they aren't willing to step outside their own narrow perspectives and be open to the differences without judgement or condemnation. Most men, admittedly, don't have that kind of emotional range, and end up aping what they think they should do in a relationship to make a woman happy to conceal what they're thinking. We've been trained to throw up our hands and dismiss that perspective as Unknowable, and it's not. It's just hard. They try to fathom how your emotions and your judgment can be affected that much by your hormones, and how your libido takes so freakin' long to warm up, and it's just a little too complex for the average dude to handle, so instead he buys you flowers and compliments you silly and hopes that the stars are in the right position.

Women also have been trained to dismiss the intracacies of male sexuality (and its related accoutremont) not as being Unknowable, but as Not Worth Knowing. What motivates a man's sexuality has been far less concern (if any) to women than how to attract the interest and attention of men in various ways. When he's moody or sullen or distracted, instead of understanding how that emotion fits within the male sexual cycle and what it means, you dismiss it as him just being a ________ and he'll get over it.

Neither position is helpful in bridging this gap between the genders. With neither side willing to invest in educating themselves about the other, they spin their wheels in warring camps and complain when the machinery breaks down, yet won't take the time to learn how it works in the first place. If there was more mutual understanding and less judgement, I think a lot of this would clear up.


And what are we supposed to do, if we're unhappy and unsatisfied in a relationship? Believe me, men power through an awful lot in the course of a marriage that they find unpleasant, unsatisfying, tedious, and occasionally dangerous. It might not be sexual in nature, but I've seen men physically and mentally destroy themselves for the benefit of their wives and families and not utter a word of complaint.

And we know when you're doing that. Don't think that we don't. If you're good at it, and it's an occasional thing, that's one thing -- but if every sexual experience a man has with his wife leads to her gritting her teeth and enduring it, no matter what preparations and thoughtful measures he's taken, then the result is a man who doubts himself at such a basic level that he feels hollow inside. Sure, sure, it doesn't matter -- it's just a dude -- but don't think we don't know. We know. Sometimes we appreciate it, and sometimes we're crippled with guilt over it, and sometimes we might not even initiate for a while because we're so disturbed by the fact that our expression of physical love has not only failed to please you, but has caused you pain. But we do know.

Believe me, that works both ways.

Perhaps. But y'all get closer to being on your side than we do, by a longshot. Men are typically discouraged from forming long-term bonds with other men on our own, whereas women form communities almost automatically. No telling how many men feel that they are utterly alone in this world, the wife that was supposed to be his best friend turning into . . . something else, and no one to talk to about the things that regularly batter our souls. How many women have girlfriends they've had for decades? Most men can count the number of guys he can really talk to on one hand, and our natural inclination when there is a problem is to suffer in silence.

Yeah, yeah, just dudes bein' dudes, I know. But let me tell you a story.

When I was about 13 in my neighborhood lived an older couple, in their 50s. They seemed about as near perfect a happily married couple as you could ask for, over 30 years together, childhood sweethearts who married out of high school. Two kids, grown and gone. Grandkids in other states. Active in their community, church, etc. Everyone loved this couple, kind of the neighborhood grandparents. They always seemed so happy, even if the husband didn't talk much.

One day my brother and I went over to see if we could borrow some dry gas for the lawnmower, and we found the husband in his shed weeping furiously. He heard us and by the time we got there, he'd recovered, all smiles, and helped us out. But it disturbed us both at a deep level, and we started paying close attention to them out of curiosity.

A few months pass, and we both noted how he never said anything -- his wife was always talking, he was always agreeing. She had a host of medical conditions that she felt compelled to keep the neighborhood informed of, so she talked a whole lot while he just kind of hung out in the background, good husband that he was.

Then we hear sirens one Sunday afternoon, and head down there to see what the commotion was. We knew one of the deputy sheriffs there, and he was pretty gabby about the shocking event. He wouldn't let us get close, though. Apparently the husband stuck a shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger after leaving behind a bitter, 10 page neatly typed (on a typewriter, no less) note about how his wife's overbearing nature and frigidity had finally led to such a depth of internal despair that he saw no way out of it -- divorce wasn't an option since it would destroy his kids and grandkids, and he felt he had been so ruined by her that no other woman would ever want him. He spent three and half pages speaking bitterly directly to his wife, saying all of the things he never felt he could say in the marriage, including how he resented her imposing nine years of absolute celibacy on him -- dude hadn't gotten laid since 1973. He ended by saying that the only honorable way out was by taking his own life, but he did so gladly rather than face even another day being diminished by his wife.

Those pages were dripping with the most angry despair I've ever read. It was heartbreaking about how his wife made him feel that it shocked me to my core. His wife was just kind of wandering around in a daze, in shock, while she answered questions, and she even called out to her husband a few times to help her remember -- and then broke down in hysterical sobs when she remembered what had happened. The whole time she kept saying "why didn't he say anything? Why didn't he say anything?" like the man she had married was a complete mystery to her.

I figured that the husband was just mentally ill or clinically depressed or something, even though he always seemed fine. But while the neighbors were standing around, I overheard a couple of the other husbands in the neighborhood nodding grimly and whispering words to the effect that "don't be surprised if they find me like that some day".

Now, it's easy to dismiss that as a fluke, an extreme case of bitterness and despair that probably could have gotten worked out in counseling or with the help of medications, had he spoken up. But in the days that followed while we got ready for the funeral and my Mom helped the widow go through his stuff, it came out that the wife really was mystified, especially about the sex stuff. Being an older southern woman, she was very reluctant to discuss it, but stuff comes out in such times of crisis.

My mom discovered that the spark that started his march towards the shed and the shotgun began when they had a fight a week earlier, after he'd tried to initiate sex for the first time in two years. She had not only rejected him, but then shamed him for being a man his age who even had those thoughts anymore. She accused him of treating her like a w#ore and of never loving her, and how he'd better thank God how lucky he was to have a woman like her because he was such a sorry excuse for a man that no other woman would look at him twice. She said he'd been moody for a few days, but by the next Monday he seemed to be very upbeat and chipper, and she figured that he was over it and back to his usual docile, helpful, non-sexual self.

Monday was the day he bought the shotgun shells.

Yes, yes, very dramatic. Typical Southern over-the-top tragedy. Not even Springer-worthy. But watching that woman keep looking out of her window automatically to check on her husband doing yard work, then bursting into tears and sobbing when she remembered, that was pretty rough. And word got around. Story was, she was at church (different one than ours) in the fellowship hall when the story came up among her friends, when one of them got fed up and nearly shouted at her, "I envied and coveted your husband for years, you stupid old bat, he was the best man in town and you wasted him! We all knew what was happening -- what kind of p!ss-poor woman can't handle just one man!?"

The wife moved to Florida with her daughter a few months later, and we heard she died about a year and a half after that. We helped clean out their house for the new owners, and I remember my dad taking me back to the shed where he'd killed himself (long cleaned up, by that point), and showing it to me again. "Learn something from this," my dad said, simply.

"Like what?"

"This is what can happen to a man if he doesn't choose his wife wisely. Once you're in, you're in, so make sure it's the right one. And if she isn't . . . don't shut up about it. Mr. _________ didn't say a word until it was too late, and he died in misery. Don't be like that."

It had a powerful effect on me, needless to say. I had no idea at the time that sex was so powerful to a man (although I was starting to suspect) and that marriage was such a complex thing.

So who had to win and who had to lose? The husband and wife each made choices along the way, and it was clear that her happiness included not having sex after her kids were in high school, because (her words) "A grown woman shouldn't have to put up with that at my age". The husband obviously respected that decision, even if he was emotionally crushed by it. Did he have to lose, then? Because it's looking like a loss from my perspective.

Sex is a powerful thing. Perhaps one of the most powerful forces we experience. And while it has power for both men and women, they're two different kinds of power, and we deal with it in very different ways. Y'all can look at the way that we view sex as "wrong", "crude", or any other adjective you'd like. But it's how we view it, and whether women think it's wrong or right or crude or whatever, it's the only sexuality we have. We can live by it . . . or we can die by it. But we can't change our essential nature, any more than you can.

I kind of hope this has at least made you think about the men in your life and wonder if they have stuff that's eating at them like that, stuff that they're terrified you'll find out or they can't bring themselves to talk to you about for fear of judgement and loss of respect. We get good at concealing that sort of thing, and if we're moved enough to bring it up at all you can bet that it's a profound matter to us. We're also good at enduring an unpleasant situation indefinitely for the women we love. But we are human, and we do break, despite our best efforts. Whether or not you find that worthy of respect is up to you, I guess, but please keep it in mind when you're frustrated with the men in your life, because if we don't find respect with y'all . . . well, there are other ways out. Even for honorable men.

Runs like Dog

As a man I have to say that porn really does nothing for me. I'm a tactile person. I need to touch and smell and taste.

MarriedWifeInLove

Can't disagree with that.

But isn't it interesting that you mentioned each and every thing that guys get hung up on that takes time away from their spouse and family - PORN, BEER, VIDEO GAMES - let me add - FISHING, BASEBALL, GOLF, FOOTBALL, anything and everything that will make them feel better about their life because gee whiz, they got married and need to pay attention to someone other than themselves for a change...and that sucks - BIG TIME.

__________________
"Don't Find Fault - Find A Remedy" Henry Ford

MarriedWifeInLove

I saw my counselor today and we discussed my husband's porn viewing habit (and yes, it's a habit or addiction as I like to refer to it), and he said yes - that frequent and continuous viewing of porn CAN and DOES de-sensitive men to the real-life women in their lives and can cause them to pull away, because the fantasy sex life is more exciting (to their mind), than the real-life sex life.

He (notice I said he - he is a man counselor), also said that men can get hooked on fetishes that they view when into porn and the fetish will override anything and everything they could possible do with their spouses, so the need to get a "fix" for the fetish can outweigh any real relationship in-person.

He doesn't take the stance that it's a "need" for men and that it is not harmful to the women in their lives - just the opposite - he said while it can be helpful to open up spouses on their shared sexuality, without the issue being "shared", spoke about and agreed upon, it can cause great harm to the trust in a relationship.

He has been a psychologist and former sex therapist for more than 25 years.

So there - a second opinion from someone WHO also knows what he's talking about and who is a man and also married too!

Now I feel better....LOL

__________________
"Don't Find Fault - Find A Remedy" Henry Ford

MarriedWifeInLove

EXACTLY!

I never had a problem with self-esteem and confidence until I discovered my husband's porn addiction.

It made me feel old, undesirable, unattractive, unloved because at the age of 50 I couldn't possibly ever compete without about $1M in plastic surgery.

So how was I supposed to deal with that? I'll tell you how - I almost went crazy, self-esteem plummeted, quit eating, sleeping, ended up in counseling and on medication - all because of HIS porn habit.

Harmless to your spouse...naw, I wouldn't say it was harmless to me.

__________________
"Don't Find Fault - Find A Remedy" Henry Ford

MarriedWifeInLove

I was stationed in Japan for 4 years.

You think the porn we have access to on the internet is weird - you have to see what you can actually see/get while in-country.

Strange...indeed. They put a whole new spin on the word PORN.

__________________
"Don't Find Fault - Find A Remedy" Henry Ford

MarriedWifeInLove

A powerful and sad story.

Too bad that the wife was not comfortable enough in her own sexuality and shut down.

Too bad that the husband did not stand up for himself and let her know how he really felt or left to find someone who did understand.

And too bad that the only way he saw out was through death - when it really is now way out - it's final - you can't have do-overs here.

I don't think that anyone here has said that sex is not important and not a vital part of a relationship, marriage included. I think it's extremely important - between ME and MY HUSBAND, not Tom, ****, Harry, and who knows else on the internet.

What we're saying, at least me, from a woman's standpoint is - don't throw me away, when I'm here, ready, able and willing to do what you need to spend that time and effort on a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Will those strangers be around when my husband becomes wheelchair bound? Will they be changing his diapers, if and when they're necessary? Do they all 911 when he has a seizure? Do they make sure he takes his meds and goes to his weekly therapy sessions? Do they take care of him when he's sick?

HELL NO - I do.

For that alone, I deserve his attention and affection. But no, Lola's Tubes, livejasmin, and lonelwives.com and many others get that time and affection.

Tell you what - I'm calling them when I need some help taking care of him - they seem to know him as well as I do these days!

__________________
"Don't Find Fault - Find A Remedy" Henry Ford

SimplyAmorous

IanIronWood, you give such Tremenously MOVING stories on here. I have been missing this entire thread, but just caught this story you gave about the old man & frigid wife.

I am one woman on here that mostly agrees with the things you say!

chillymorn

to bad internet porn wsn't around he might still be alive.

if it just saves one life its worth it.

Sennik

Absolutely agreed, and as a man this quite frankly is what bugs me the most.

The double standard.

I fully understand the need for romance for women. I have no problem with the very large industry built on satisfying just that.

I do my best to not only provide romance to my wife with our busy schedules but be the man of the house too. Will I EVER be able to equal what's in those books or movies? Not a damn chance. Does it bother me? Does it make me feel less of a man? Do I feel like I am being compared to? No to all of the above. Why? They're fiction. She simply needs a temporary escape/release that I can't necessarily meet at that given time for her. Go for it babe...I'm right here when you're done.

Yet, when the male outlet equivalent (porn) is used to help satisfy our physiological needs it's immediately DEFCON 5 bring on the guilt trip.

Why is that?

Backstory Time:
In our case for the last 17 years neither porn nor romance media has gotten in the way of making love. It is *only* used when we can't meet each others needs for the short term. We have also been monogamous.

Those that use it instead of being with their partner IMHO have something else deeper going on that needs to be addressed.

It also hasn't changed my tastes. Quite the opposite. My tastes drive what I look for. It HAS however given me some good things to try in the sack over the years, to great effect.

The result is generally a multi-orgasmic wife who will often call me up during her busy day the next day and tell me she is having problems focusing on her job

...I guess I'm just not the 'stereotypical' porn user.

Trenton

Ian, not one person has pm'd me with a show of support in this thread. Now I could take that to mean that your voice is necessary and mine is not, but I would like to argue that for a moment before moving on.

I don't see you as the loud voice of the oppressed opposition. Rather I see you as the very vocal voice of a voice that is everywhere, loud and constantly demanding. It is slanted 100% towards men even if tempered with a mock understanding of female sexuality and emotions. Men have been standing up and vehemently agreeing with your voice forever. They've been creating laws, scriptures and tools for themselves to back up your voice.

You may feel your voice is new or a warning to be heeded by women, but I see it as outplayed and overheard.

History has told us over and over again that regardless of culture, if you empower women they are capable of all of the things men at one time told them they were incapable of. They are responsible for many of the things that they accused women of. They will choose freedom over repression and they are passionate pleaser's and nurturer's.

Your message empowers men and caters to their needs and uses the common repression and fear tactics seen forever. In the next paragraph I will mix history with present from various cultures.

Eve grabs the apple. God hands Mohammed a child virgin of his liking. Queens were used for heirs and decapitated for being too frank. Women was created to serve man. Rape of a woman is punishable by death...not for the man but for the woman who was raped. It's a woman's responsibility to keep her man happy. Porn objectifies women for man's pleasure. Fear of a better woman from the East to serve man is meant to create fear in Western women.

The list goes on and on and on.

NOW. What I said in my post prior to this one was that as a woman your (and the many thousands of other posts by men similar in belief to you) does create insecurity for those of us married to good men. Your messages tells women that they are impossible examples of men that are rather repressed than capable of being in existence.

I have thought about this, spoken at large to my husband about it. He disagrees. He will never write you a PM telling you so. It comes down to whether or not I believe him and I do. I have to because he has never shown me differently.

All I can think when all this is said and done is that it's a shame that he is the exception in regards to his views on women and I truly hope that my boys grow up to be just like him (minus his horrible time issues!).

This exceptional voice is the more important voice, even if it goes unheard or unheeded. It has to be out there.

Women deserve respect and do not deserve to be objectified or made to feel unworthy because of who they are. They do not deserve to be repressed and contrary to your very BUZZ'ING message, you are wrong. It is woman who has been repressed and coveted as well as controlled by man throughout history.

Trenton

Now, on to the story you wrote...even though I have so many other points I'd like to make on your counter points as well. I'll get there, I'll get there.

Why do I not feel any empathy for this old man who tolerated an unhappy life for so long and then checks out with a long note that blames his wife for his undoing? I don't empathize because it's freaking lame. It's lamer still that men would sit around during all of this and whisper that it might happen to them. How freaking lame. Given all the advantages of being a man and the lack of inherent responsibility assigned to their sex, they give up their lives to live with controlling women who torture them to the point of suicide? Is this sad? Absolutely but sad in an I feel sorry for a human being who has so many opportunities around them and squanders them into their self inflicted death.

"Is it that they fear the pain of death or could it be they fear the joy of life."
-Toad the Wet Sprocket

Having said that, there is a Jewish Proverb that is paraphrased into..."What's Truer than the Truth? The Story."

I get that you know and use this Proverb regularly. It should come with a warning; however, "be sure that everyone gets a chance to tell their story!"

I could tell you dozens of stories of women who have been sexually abused at the hands of men or left behind to raise children without a father. I could pick out stories that illustrated my point and show where society fails children, men and women. I could go on and on and on and on and on and will, of course. In my own neighborhood we have had a tragedy.

A single mother who worked 12 hours a day as a bus driver making $12 an hour stabbed her 9 year old son to death and then tossed him out his window and put him, blood and all, in the minivan. She then tried to kill herself by turning the knife on herself but called the police in time to be saved. She is currently serving a life sentence and plead guilty. The son's father...well, he was in Florida at the time and had begun a new family. Do I blame him for the son's death? Absolutely not, although by your logic I could say that his deserting of his family ended up killing the child. I could blame society failing to provide adequate support to the Mom. I could look for blame everywhere. I do remember after it happened many Mom's looked at themselves with fear...were they, could they ever be capable of such drastic, horrible and disgusting actions towards their own children that they love.

I knew this woman, my community knew her and the child. They, by all accounts looked happy together as well. Ice cream at the inlet in the summer, Boy Scout meetings and doing well in school for the child.

Where is personable responsibility?

If you don't believe me, click away as here is this woman's tragic story...
Manasquan woman admits killing 9-year-old son | NJ.com

The point is that we all have the ability to make choices. We can choose to live a life of misery or we can choose to write our own story and fill it with carefully chosen characters and intense experiences (both good and bad).

We can also choose to be a good man or a good woman and we can choose to fill our lives up with mutual understanding and satisfaction or disregard our significant others for our own gain for as long as they will put up with it.

Bottom line, you can't blame your own misery on anyone else (male or female) if you don't do anything to change it.

Therealbrighteyes

It's gold start Monday for Trenton!

MarriedWifeInLove

Awww...come on...that's a stretch to say the least.

Talk about grasping straws!

__________________
"Don't Find Fault - Find A Remedy" Henry Ford