The immovable object. - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
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post #16 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Appreciate all the replies.

Anon: I tried exercise. I ran a half marathon. I did a cycle of P90X. I was in good shape. Did not improve my mood. Well, actually, the half marathon worsened my mood. After 6 months of training I came in pretty much last of all the participants, including the walkers and the people over age 70. I didn't enjoy the training (and I was part of a charity-based group that provided training materials, met weekly to do long runs, and provided moral support). And the race itself was humiliating. I did not feel any sense of satisfaction from finishing. I felt embarrassed that it took me so long they were tearing down the last few water stations before I got to them.

As for TMS, I looked into that. They opened a center near me. Costs $12,000. Not happening. Then they would not take me for regular therapy because I don't have records of all my previous therapists, the meds I took, etc.

As for talking to my kids about mate selection, I have done this and expect to continue to do it. H2 will not be pleased with some of the things I have to share. So timing is delicate. And no, the kids do not need to know all our problems. Or details. But there is a component to sexual mismatch that needs to be placed onto the table, which understandably makes H2 very nervous.

As for finding someone else, well, I am sure you guys (and gals) are correct that there are other women with whom I would enjoy spending time. Or even being married. Where we part company is believing that any of them would desire to spend any time with me. You will never convince me that is possible. Which is a pretty darn self-fulfilling prophesy. And one I am determined never to test empirically. As several people said to john117, my bitterness and resentment will shine through and no decent woman would give me the time of day. So if I am not going to learn to drop the bitterness and be happy, no point in divorcing her to seek someone else.

Like I said before, I don't expect to ever accept this. I know I am being a moron. Still, I don't expect to change, either. I get too much payoff from making a game of seeing if I can get my wife to stay married to me despite my depression. I figure since she baited and switched me, she can't complain if I sink some hooks into her in return. I know being this way is destroying my soul, but when you have spent pretty much every waking moment since toddler-hood unhappy, can't say my soul ever did me much good.
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post #17 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 09:40 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

I understand the feeling of being unhappy throughout all of life's stages. It can be a challenge. In a way, you are correct to not pursue a divorce at this point. If your unhappiness is that long-standing, the root of your challenge probably is not in your marital relationship.

Have you engaged in individual counseling as a way to walk yourself through your personal history? I sense quite a bit of "what's the use, I will fail anyway" attitude in your writing. While pragmatic in some cases, this approach is caustic is applied in EVERY aspect of your life. You need to work with a counselor to identify one aspect of your existence where you can develop confidence in yourself and your abilities. Then, you build from there. Best of luck.
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post #18 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 09:56 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

I am going to stay on the exercise thing for a minute.

It sounds like you chose the wrong mode of exercise.

Cut out the competitive aspect. Cut out the public display aspect. You hated coming in last, humiliating yourself. OK, that makes sense. So don't put yourself in that position.

P90X is not sustainable for most people. It's like ripping a bandaid off. Great in the short term but you can't always be so intense.

Do something more low key. Can you just get a weight set and do that at home? Make the process really methodical. Stack the weights on the bar slowly. Breathe properly, focus on the weight, use perfect form. It sounds rote but it can put you in a peaceful place. Then, you will gain strength physically and mentally. Nobody needs to know but you. You will have little accomplishments each week as you are able to lift slightly more.

Make it easy. Don't torture yourself. Let it build very, very slowly. Don't question it, just do it, every day. 20 minutes. Could you do that?
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post #19 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

MT: Did talk therapy at age 17 before leaving for college. College was a disaster. Did talk therapy (individual and group) after graduate school. Zero impact.

Week before first child was born, my partners kicked me out of my firm. Nice, huh? Went to talk therapy and got put on meds for the first time. Tried several meds. Some caused severe side effects. Some did not. None made much of a difference. Thankfully S20 was born healthy and I eventually got another job in another town and started over. Made partner again. Was doing IC and meds. Things were going OK (except for the sex).

Then the infamous "no sex" 5th anniversary vacation and the ultimatum to do MC. Continued to do IC and meds while doing MC. Then discovery of the huge financial betrayal by H2. Continued doing MC and IC and meds but nothing could make an impact given the betrayal both sexual and financial.

Headhunter communicated job opening 700 miles away. I interviewed thinking if I got the job I would divorce H2 and leave the kids with her and start over far away. Got the job. Couldn't bear to leave my kids. H2 and kids came with me to new job. Found a local IC and stayed on meds. Tried various ICs and meds. Nothing works. Pretty much every waking moment I am not hugging my kids (not appropriate to do so often now that they are grown) is unhappy.

So where does that leave me? I was a nice guy who didn't divorce his wife over disappointing honeymoon and pre-kid year and where did that get me? I was nice guy who trusted his partners at startup firm and where did that get me? I was nice guy who shared his finances with his wife and where did that get me? I am DONE being nice. Of course, I don't have the guts to be openly aggressive. So I am the king of passive-aggression. I sabotage everything. Mostly myself, but as long as H2 gets hit by some splash damage I am satisfied. It is not like I am ever going to be successful or happy or even content.

This is simply too much for me to handle. We are talking years of daily therapy, meds, maybe ECT or TMS to get over this. Serious stuff. Far more than I am willing to invest in chasing what I perceive as a slim chance of success. If I can keep my job and pay the bills and my kids can graduate college without much debt that is enough for me. I am not willing to rock the boat and shake things up and risk losing my career and my income (no savings so without steady income the ship goes down pretty darn fast) to search for a unicorn.

I agree with all of you that this stinks. Nevertheless, it could be worse. I can handle this. I have been handling it for 50+ years. I have been handling it for the 10 years since we stopped MC and I realized our sex life was never going to fulfill my needs much less live up to my dreams. I do not want to find out whether or not I can handle things getting worse. I know I am blessed and have many things to be thankful for in my life. I am not going to throw them away questing for a grail. You will never convince me it is anything but a figment of someone's imagination.
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post #20 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 10:41 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

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Originally Posted by Anon1111 View Post
I am going to stay on the exercise thing for a minute.

It sounds like you chose the wrong mode of exercise.
Bzzz. Wrong. thank you for playing.

I also tried going to a gym and working machines. I also tried watching classes on Fit tv in my basement. I also tried dvds less intense than P90X (again alone in my basement). Never felt good about myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon1111 View Post
Make it easy. Don't torture yourself. Let it build very, very slowly. Don't question it, just do it, every day. 20 minutes. Could you do that?
No. H2 wants a partner who is fit. She had one. She spurned me. Now I will not give her the satisfaction of having a fit partner. She can have weak soft bodied me. She doesn't find me attractive? So what? It is not like we are having sex so what difference does it make?

She leaves me over being out of shape. Bingo. I win. I outlasted her. She gets to be the "bad guy" who blew up our marriage. She gets to tell the kids she is leaving me, who has done nothing over the past 20+ years but kiss her butt. And maybe she will find a rich guy to marry who can buy them the things I will never be able to afford.

I got what I wanted. I raised them. I got to live with them every night while they were growing. I got to tuck them into bed and kiss them good night. I got to go camping and drive them to activities and cheer their failures and successes. No other guy got to raise them. I don't have to worry about a stream of suitors dating H2 and molesting my daughter. Even if H2 remarries, D18 will want me to walk her down the aisle. That is what I hoped for when I refused to abandon them 14 years ago. My hope has been fulfilled.

Unfortunately, I do not have any hopes left for myself.
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post #21 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 10:49 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

I'm not coming at the exercise thing for the effects it will have on your body or on your wife's perception of you. Frankly, from the way you've described your marriage, I don't even think it really exists. It's a name with no content.

I'm talking about exercise as a way to help you feel better mentally.

I am not trying to insult you-- you already know this-- but you are soft and indulgent mentally.

It is hard to get a handle on that sort of thing. I personally find it is easier to see the benefit of mental focus/clarity in a physical activity. I believe many people are similarly wired.

You've done some different activities and you do nothing now (based on what you've said). Doing nothing is not working out so well for you. You've not exhausted all possibilities. You indulge in making excuses for yourself. But you get no satisfaction from this. So why not stop making excuses and just do something?
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post #22 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 10:56 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

Bad stuff happens to everyone, not just you. It's how you deal with it that matters.

You will never find a perfect outcome. Focusing on that instead of focusing on how to simply do BETTER is a mistake. Just put one foot in front of the other.

how do alcoholics stop drinking? One day at a time. If you focus on the enormity of not drinking, you will never make it.

can you apply the same thought process to your life?
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post #23 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Anon: Here is the cycle I am locked in. I agree with you that bad stuff happens to everyone, and what matters is how you deal with it. I deal poorly. When the going gets tough, I get stupid and wimp out. That is how my FIL (may he rest in piece) described me, and he was correct.

Having spent 50+ years being worthless and weak, I now believe I deserve to be miserable. I am not trying to make things better. I am not trying to create a successful marriage. I am trying to endure a bad marriage so I deliver to myself the punishment I deserve. Hard to do for decades. Intellectually I realize it is stupid and counter-productive. I understand that whatever part of me has any sense left is fighting against this process and result. Which is why I ceaselessly agonize on Internet forums. But don't you see the brilliance of this? Agonizing on Internet forums is the outlet the sick part of me permits to the healthy part. I give the healthy part an outlet. I give it hope. I give it a chance to vent. Then when it has "caught it breath", I go back to torturing it. After 13 years, the sick part of me has this down to a science.

If I did some exercise and felt better about myself, that would make my job harder? Why? Harder to justify staying in a bad marriage when you feel you deserve better. If I felt better about myself, I would be tempted either to go back to working to improve my marriage or to divorce H2. We can't have that Anon. That would remove the focus of my resentment and my excuse for inaction and put the onus on me to make a better life for myself. No, feeling better about myself because I got into better shape is exactly what I will not permit me to do.

You can call out to the decent and good and healthy part of me all you want. It avails not. I have turned to the dark side. The sick part of me is in complete control.

Doesn't mean I can't give good advice to others. I know what someone who is healthy SHOULD do to improve their situation. I simply have no intention of implementing that advice myself.

Like I said, this thread was intended to provide background so people who read my advice could know where I was coming from and prevent threadjacks from john117's thread. It is not meant to be a help thread. There is no hope left for me. There is a part of me desperately crying out in despair for release. Don't worry, I have him securely shackled. He'll never get free.

Last edited by Holdingontoit; 06-09-2015 at 11:16 AM.
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post #24 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 11:27 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

H--

Heavy! Fatalistic!

You are who you want to be. You want to be a good guy, you believe you are a good guy underneath it all-- guess what, you ARE that good guy.

I'm not going to convince you, you can see it for yourself.

You could change in an instant. It is possible. You are so close to it.
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post #25 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 11:45 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

H,

there are a lot of martyrs out there in this world, married to people they shouldn't be married too, in they stay in for a host of reasons (Money (lack of it or to comfortable with the good life), no where to go, no eduction , no desire to pursue self happiness in themselves, no one else will have them (or so they think), attitude, mentally stuck, kids) so i get that, and when they die, they die mostly with wishing that life had been different for them, but they die anyway alone in their thoughts. No one will remember them as martyrs and in some cases their children will repeat the cycle because that is the role model they see...and BTW you don't not divorce someone for someone...ever and i mean ever...you divorce because of you, and you need to escape a bad situation, escape the wrong marriage, but you escape for you, regardless if you ever find another woman again...you escape to create a better world for you. Find your bliss and if it ain't with Mrs. H then find it else where...its not her job to make you happy that responsibility is all yours.
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post #26 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Anon: I do not want to change. I do not want upheaval. I want balance. I want to believe that I bring to the table what H2 brings. No less. No more. If she does not bring her sexuality to the table, that is a big negative for me. I will make sure I bring enough negatives to the table to balance things out. If I exercised and got into better shape, I would be bringing too much to the table. Homey don't play that game.

Xenote: You are correct. I have many regrets. I expect to accumulate many more. I expect to die viewing most of my life as wasted time. Not looking for anyone to remember me as a martyr. Not looking for Mrs. Hold the make me happy. Gave up on that years ago. Not looking to find my bliss. Do not believe it exists.

Like I said, I have many blessings. Health. Children. A wife who loves me. More now than before. She never believed that I truly see her as beautiful and smart and competent until we stopped having sex. Now she sees that my compliments were sincere, because I continue to give them freely even though we don't have sex. We like the same foods. We like many of the same tv shows. We are devoted to our children. I think we will be compatible in our old age. It just requires me to give up on sex. Which makes it feel like capitulation to me. Like I lost and she won. I know that is all in my head. But I refuse to let it go. She can make me stop having sex by raising the price (divorce) above what I am willing to pay. But she cannot make me like it. That is the small piece of myself I will never give away. She cannot make me like it.
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post #27 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 01:42 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

Dude, if getting to a better place meant you had to let go of your delusions and what you thought your identity was, would you do it?

Or are you looking to dull the pain just enough to survive?

These are two different things.
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post #28 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 01:43 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

OK, come at this from a different angle.

what drives you. anything? you seem like a smart guy. do you apply that to anything?
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post #29 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 01:48 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Anon: I do not want to change. I do not want upheaval. I want balance. I want to believe that I bring to the table what H2 brings. No less. No more. If she does not bring her sexuality to the table, that is a big negative for me. I will make sure I bring enough negatives to the table to balance things out. If I exercised and got into better shape, I would be bringing too much to the table. Homey don't play that game.
OK, it's just a word but this does not sound like "balance" to me.

Do you really think it makes sense to organize your sense of self around a tit for tat contest with your wife?

You clearly see how massively flawed this is and yet you call it balance?

Block your wife out of the picture. Focus on balance within your own self. She is a side show man.
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post #30 of 541 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 01:49 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

It strikes me that both of you are extremely damaged. Have you considered what it's actually like to live with you? Given your history of issues do you really think you'd be a peach to live with if only you got more sex? How do you imagine your attitude and demeanor will turn someone on?

I'd ask your wife the same thing if she were here but she's not so I'm asking you. As in what it's like to live with her.

See you guys are a very poor match because you're both extremely needy. Your wife is a rape victim and needed a husband who could really be her rock emotionally. That's not you.

You have a history of self loathing and depression and need an extremely strong partner. Dealing with someone that has such extreme depression and self loathing is soul sucking and a lot of women couldn't handle it, let alone someone damaged like your wife. And I'd bet you're way too hard on yourself, but if you think you're worthless so will everyone else.

Why would you stay heavy and unhealthy to stick it to your wife? Being in good shape is good for you. Unless it's really a covert contract, which never works. You've got to get some intensive counseling for yourself. .... your wife can't fix your issues and some more sex won't fix your issues

And for as po'd as you walk around over her sex issues you've always known she's lIke this and yet you stuck around and had kids with her. At what point do you accept some responsibility for your own choices?
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