The immovable object. - Page 34 - Talk About Marriage
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post #496 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

She had the typical litany of excuses. They never added up. They never explained why we had almost no sex on our honeymoon. Each MC and sex therapist eventually realized that my behavior (the alleged cause of her disinterest) was not so poor as to justify never having sex with me. At that point each course MC or ST ran into a brick wall. So we switched to another counsellor, hping they had a system or technique that would help us. But it never worked. It could never work. We were not addressing the core issue.

H2 worked full time for several years before we got married. Stopped working when we had kids. Works flexible job now. Takes so many gigs that it is full time (more, she works weekends too), but very low pay. She likes it and likes the flexibility to take off whenever she wants and go visit the kids (who both live far away). She said she would take a full time job when both kids were in college but first the illness intervened and now she likes her flexibility too much to get 9-5 weekday job with limited vacation.

As for the rapes, I know very little. All before we met. I know approximately when they happened. She says they do not affect her sexuality. I don't believe her but that is not up for discussion. No, she will not seek help, as in her mind they are not currently relevant. When I met her I couldn't understand why a woman who had so much going for her chose me. I thought it was her bad acne, life events such as moving often and never feeling like she belonged where she was. Only years later did I realize why I was so appealing to her. And why we are so mismatched. Well, perfect in a way, Perfectly designed to drive each other crazy. Perfectly designed to trigger both s strong desire and our respective fear / anxiety / shame. Perfectly designed to be impossible to leave.

I am not interested in another partner. I have never had a fulfilling sexual relationship and don't expect to ever have one. That is why it is fairly easy to live without sex now that I am old and have even more performance problems than previously. That is why I was so easy to entrap. I was inexperienced, anxious, bumbling. Quite a dud. She accepted me. I did not realize why at the time. By the time I realized we were far too entwined for me to exit. At this time I see no point. I am not exposing my inadequacy to another woman. Might as well not have sex with the mother of my children but have a standing date for Saturday night than be alone.

I have not made the best of anything. I am sure I have set a bad example for my kids. However, I was worried that H2, left to her own devices, might be worse despite how much she adores them and caters to them. She would remarry and step parenting is always a challenge. We work very well as a parenting team. Better than either on our own. Both kids are doing well academically. It remains to be seen how they will do romantically. They both struggle in different ways. I fear our cursed relationship may echo down the generations. Pretty much every set of parents messes up their kids in one way or another. I hope our kids can learn to deal with how we messed them up. They get along very well with each other and with us. That is a blessing. I did not want to blow that up.

Yes, I think she loves me. More now than ever before. I think she would try harder now to make herself available than she ever did before. I am too broken to deal with that. I can't accept duty / pity sex a a loving gesture. I have too much shame. Do I love her? I care for her deeply. But I don't love myself enough to love anyone properly. So yes, I think I deserve this. I am not trying to be happy. I don't deserve to be happy.

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post #497 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 05:04 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
She had the typical litany of excuses. They never added up. They never explained why we had almost no sex on our honeymoon. Each MC and sex therapist eventually realized that my behavior (the alleged cause of her disinterest) was not so poor as to justify never having sex with me. At that point each course MC or ST ran into a brick wall. So we switched to another counsellor, hping they had a system or technique that would help us. But it never worked. It could never work. We were not addressing the core issue.
That's not the point. What seems 'not so poor behaviour' to your MC is not really relevant. You are not trying to have sex with the MC...It seems she never truly explained that aspect to you. It's possible some people can never talk but I would have pushed this aspect more. Can you not ask her now? after all these years? Perhaps there won't be any pressure for her to tell you since you can tell her that you are not seeking to have sex with her anymore but asking just to satisfy your curiosity.

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H2 worked full time for several years before we got married. Stopped working when we had kids. Works flexible job now. Takes so many gigs that it is full time (more, she works weekends too), but very low pay. She likes it and likes the flexibility to take off whenever she wants and go visit the kids (who both live far away). She said she would take a full time job when both kids were in college but first the illness intervened and now she likes her flexibility too much to get 9-5 weekday job with limited vacation.

As for the rapes, I know very little. All before we met. I know approximately when they happened. She says they do not affect her sexuality. I don't believe her but that is not up for discussion. No, she will not seek help, as in her mind they are not currently relevant.
Absolutely no way. This is most probably the number one reason. I am surprised the MC did not do anything with this information! (doesn't sound like you have a good MC so far...).


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When I met her I couldn't understand why a woman who had so much going for her chose me. I thought it was her bad acne, life events such as moving often and never feeling like she belonged where she was. Only years later did I realize why I was so appealing to her. And why we are so mismatched. Well, perfect in a way, Perfectly designed to drive each other crazy. Perfectly designed to trigger both s strong desire and our respective fear / anxiety / shame. Perfectly designed to be impossible to leave.

I am not interested in another partner. I have never had a fulfilling sexual relationship and don't expect to ever have one. That is why it is fairly easy to live without sex now that I am old and have even more performance problems than previously. That is why I was so easy to entrap. I was inexperienced, anxious, bumbling. Quite a dud. She accepted me. I did not realize why at the time. By the time I realized we were far too entwined for me to exit. At this time I see no point. I am not exposing my inadequacy to another woman. Might as well not have sex with the mother of my children but have a standing date for Saturday night than be alone.
I can see why this makes sense to you. I am not sure I agree.

The thing is, we go through life, narrating it to ourselves. And very often life turns out pretty similarly to what we narrate. If you convince yourself that you don't 'deserve something', whether it is true or not (it's not), it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and, perversely, you don't stop until this state is reached. I know this doesn't help now. But I think you are at a point where you can still make many improvements to what you have and a lot of it has to do with your attitude. Focus on one aspect at a time that you want to improve in your relationship or in your life (and never think you 'don't deserve it') and you'll get there eventually. (I don't really know what it is, currently, so am left to these cliche generalizations). Read some books on visualisation techniques (visualising your goals). It does work.
What about your own childhood? I hope there wasn't a parent who kept telling you that you were no good for anything.



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I have not made the best of anything. I am sure I have set a bad example for my kids. However, I was worried that H2, left to her own devices, might be worse despite how much she adores them and caters to them. She would remarry and step parenting is always a challenge. We work very well as a parenting team. Better than either on our own. Both kids are doing well academically. It remains to be seen how they will do romantically. They both struggle in different ways. I fear our cursed relationship may echo down the generations. Pretty much every set of parents messes up their kids in one way or another. I hope our kids can learn to deal with how we messed them up.
Here, you are already narrating the life for your kids...You really have to stop doing it. You haven't messed anyone up.

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
Yes, I think she loves me. More now than ever before. I think she would try harder now to make herself available than she ever did before. I am too broken to deal with that. I can't accept duty / pity sex a a loving gesture. I have too much shame. Do I love her? I care for her deeply. But I don't love myself enough to love anyone properly. So yes, I think I deserve this. I am not trying to be happy. I don't deserve to be happy.
Ok, seriously. You have to stop it. Everyone deserves happiness. No one deserves unhappiness. You are not special in that respect ()
If you were persistent enough (and got your wife to sort out her rape problem with a good shrink), a lot of men 'address' their 'inadequacy complex' in the bedroom, by getting 'punished' by their dom spouse. That's a much 'healthier' way than building resentment towards your wife (and more towards yourself). I can tell this would probably be up your street
It's really not too late. Find a shrink for your wife who specialised in rape victims first. I am absolutely gobsmacked that it's just been left like this.
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post #498 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

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That's not the point. What seems 'not so poor behaviour' to your MC is not really relevant. You are not trying to have sex with the MC...It seems she never truly explained that aspect to you. It's possible some people can never talk but I would have pushed this aspect more. Can you not ask her now? after all these years? Perhaps there won't be any pressure for her to tell you since you can tell her that you are not seeking to have sex with her anymore but asking just to satisfy your curiosity.
No, sorry, my explanation was poor. She told me the reasons during MC. I fixed them. No matter what I fixed, she never consented to sex. Or to holding hands. Or hugs. Or anything.
You see, the reasons were just excuses. There was, actually, close to nothing wrong with how I treated her. She pretended there was to justify why she refused to have sex with me. Eventually I tired of exhausting myself and got off the treadmill. I am never getting back on.

And it was not a single MC. It was several different ones. Over 8 years. In different cities, with different backgrounds and approaches. The problem is not that we had a bad MC. Or that they used the wrong approach. The problem is that neither me nor my wife was willing to make the changes the other person wanted. Until I made the one change that was required for peace to reign. Giving up sex. We get along well now in terms of the day to day. I am not giving that up to press for change more along the lines of what I originally wanted. Last time I did that H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit cards debts to punish me for daring to suggest she change. Maybe her reaction would be less violent and unhelpful today. We shall never know.

Quote:
The thing is, we go through life, narrating it to ourselves. And very often life turns out pretty similarly to what we narrate. If you convince yourself that you don't 'deserve something', whether it is true or not (it's not), it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and, perversely, you don't stop until this state is reached. I know this doesn't help now. But I think you are at a point where you can still make many improvements to what you have and a lot of it has to do with your attitude. Focus on one aspect at a time that you want to improve in your relationship or in your life (and never think you 'don't deserve it') and you'll get there eventually. (I don't really know what it is, currently, so am left to these cliche generalizations). Read some books on visualisation techniques (visualising your goals). It does work.
Thank you. You are absolutely correct. I could make improvements if I desired to do so. I don't and I won't. Like I said, this is not a help thread. It is a warning to others thread.

I appreciate your posts, because what you write is exactly what someone in my position should do to save themselves. I hope anyone reading this thread who finds themselves in my position takes your advice.

Quote:
Here, you are already narrating the life for your kids...You really have to stop doing it. You haven't messed anyone up.
I hope and pray you are correct. Time will tell. They are old enough that my input from here on out is minor. They will have to deal with where they are and where they want to go.

Quote:
Ok, seriously. You have to stop it. Everyone deserves happiness. No one deserves unhappiness. You are not special in that respect ()
If you were persistent enough (and got your wife to sort out her rape problem with a good shrink), a lot of men 'address' their 'inadequacy complex' in the bedroom, by getting 'punished' by their dom spouse. That's a much 'healthier' way than building resentment towards your wife (and more towards yourself). I can tell this would probably be up your street
It's really not too late. Find a shrink for your wife who specialised in rape victims first. I am absolutely gobsmacked that it's just been left like this.
Like I said, you are correct. What I am doing is not healthy. I intend to keep doing it. I do not expect a different outcome. I am not getting help. I am not insisting my wife get help.

I am working a different plan. A sick twisted and unhealthy plan. But for the first time in my life and my marriage, I am making progress toward my goal. You might wish me to pick a different goal. A healthier goal. A more positive goal. One that might involve happiness for me and a closer relationship with my wife. Sorry, that I will never do. I have developed a taste for poison. I am never going back to nutritious food.

When you can see it coming, duck!

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post #499 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 05:07 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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No, sorry, my explanation was poor. She told me the reasons during MC. I fixed them. No matter what I fixed, she never consented to sex. Or to holding hands. Or hugs. Or anything.
You see, the reasons were just excuses. There was, actually, close to nothing wrong with how I treated her. She pretended there was to justify why she refused to have sex with me. Eventually I tired of exhausting myself and got off the treadmill. I am never getting back on.

And it was not a single MC. It was several different ones. Over 8 years. In different cities, with different backgrounds and approaches. The problem is not that we had a bad MC. Or that they used the wrong approach. The problem is that neither me nor my wife was willing to make the changes the other person wanted. Until I made the one change that was required for peace to reign. Giving up sex. We get along well now in terms of the day to day. I am not giving that up to press for change more along the lines of what I originally wanted. Last time I did that H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit cards debts to punish me for daring to suggest she change. Maybe her reaction would be less violent and unhelpful today. We shall never know.



Thank you. You are absolutely correct. I could make improvements if I desired to do so. I don't and I won't. Like I said, this is not a help thread. It is a warning to others thread.

I appreciate your posts, because what you write is exactly what someone in my position should do to save themselves. I hope anyone reading this thread who finds themselves in my position takes your advice.



I hope and pray you are correct. Time will tell. They are old enough that my input form here n out is minor. They will have to deal with where they are and where they want to go.



Like I said, you are correct. What I am doing is not healthy. I intend to keep doing it. I do not expect a different outcome. I am not getting help. I am not insisting my wife get help.

I am working a different plan. A sick twisted and unhealthy plan. But for the first time in my life and my marriage, I am making progress toward my goal. You might wish me to pick a different goal. A healthier goal. A more positive goal. One that might involve happiness for me and a closer relationship with my wife. Sorry, that I will never do. I have developed a taste for poison. I am never going back to nutritious food.
Ok, I understand what you are saying. Can I ask what is your 'ultimate goal'?
Also yo wrote: "The problem is that neither me nor my wife was willing to make the changes the other person wanted."

Which changes were expected of you?
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post #500 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

You can ask anything you want. No, not in my best interest to tell you explicitly. Surely you can read between the lines and figure it out?

Changes expected of me:

When she asked me to spend more time talking to her, I did. When she asked for date nights, we went on them. When she asked for more vacations, I took more time off.

Where did I fall short? I did not make tons more money. Buy her expensive jewelry. Take her on lots of fancy vacations. Buy her a fancy car. I make a low six figure income and that is much less than she expected and does not support the lifestyle she thought she was marrying into.

Second, she would like me to be less depressed and pessimistic. I did IC for many years. Took AD meds. It caused weight gain and anorgasmia. I exercised to get in better shape and take the weight off. Got in better shape. Took the weight off. Hard to say if the depression ever lifted. As a chronically depressed person I do not trust myself as a witness. She commented from time to time that I seemed better.

But the constant was that we did not have sex and she overspent our budget no matter what I did or didn't do. Hard to throw off the depression when you are constantly getting rejected sexually and you are constantly under financial stress.

The last of our many MCs realized that H2 was never going to provide more sex and Hold was never going to see the glass as half full. So she fired us.

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post #501 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 09:18 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

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You can ask anything you want. No, not in my best interest to tell you explicitly. Surely you can read between the lines and figure it out?

Changes expected of me:

When she asked me to spend more time talking to her, I did. When she asked for date nights, we went on them. When she asked for more vacations, I took more time off.

Where did I fall short? I did not make tons more money. Buy her expensive jewelry. Take her on lots of fancy vacations. Buy her a fancy car. I make a low six figure income and that is much less than she expected and does not support the lifestyle she thought she was marrying into.

Second, she would like me to be less depressed and pessimistic. I did IC for many years. Took AD meds. It caused weight gain and anorgasmia. I exercised to get in better shape and take the weight off. Got in better shape. Took the weight off. Hard to say if the depression ever lifted. As a chronically depressed person I do not trust myself as a witness. She commented from time to time that I seemed better.

But the constant was that we did not have sex and she overspent our budget no matter what I did or didn't do. Hard to throw off the depression when you are constantly getting rejected sexually and you are constantly under financial stress.

The last of our many MCs realized that H2 was never going to provide more sex and Hold was never going to see the glass as half full. So she fired us.
For as much as you say she values money, I would have a mountain of resentment if I were you for the fact that she never really got a full time job when she could to help pull in the kind of money she wanted to have. Maybe that's my bias showing through - my H and I are a two earner household and we both work hard to keep moving up the pay scale for our combined benefit. I would be really angry at someone free loading off of my money and simultaneously complaining that I wasn't making enough!

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post #502 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 05:13 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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For as much as you say she values money, I would have a mountain of resentment if I were you for the fact that she never really got a full time job when she could to help pull in the kind of money she wanted to have. Maybe that's my bias showing through - my H and I are a two earner household and we both work hard to keep moving up the pay scale for our combined benefit. I would be really angry at someone free loading off of my money and simultaneously complaining that I wasn't making enough!

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I am not sure it's possible to have more resentment than is already there.
It's strange, in my mind and in my darkest moments, I had a feeling that it is possible to end up in a situation like this through a huge amount of bad luck. You always read about stories regarding couples staying together for convenience etc but this seems to be in another league.
I presume she has absolutely no suspicions regarding how you feel and you don't intend to 'let her in' on it. It's something you developed to 'cherish' by yourself and for yourself.

Yes, I can read between the lines. I just thought if you said it out loud, perhaps you would hear yourself and snap out of it.

Have you ever asked yourself if you have it the wrong way around?
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post #503 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 06:27 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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I am not sure it's possible to have more resentment than is already there.
It's strange, in my mind and in my darkest moments, I had a feeling that it is possible to end up in a situation like this through a huge amount of bad luck. You always read about stories regarding couples staying together for convenience etc but this seems to be in another league.
I presume she has absolutely no suspicions regarding how you feel and you don't intend to 'let her in' on it. It's something you developed to 'cherish' by yourself and for yourself.

Yes, I can read between the lines. I just thought if you said it out loud, perhaps you would hear yourself and snap out of it.

Have you ever asked yourself if you have it the wrong way around?
You are in lala land?

They were in MC for most of a decade, surely the ****ty sexlife was made quite clear.
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post #504 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 07:50 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

I wasn't talking about sex life.
I am referring to 'the plan'.


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post #505 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 08:45 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

Its more than sexless... its loveless.

How old are you? 45 or so? I've read the first page and bits of the last few pages... I kind of get what you are trying to say. You have resolved yourself to be used, that you have wasted 20+ years of your life with this woman who was NEVER your wife since the day you got married to her. I know guys who are in their 50s~70s who still go out on dates, get laid or some kind of affection from another human being. I'm 46 - if I was back on the market - I'd be getting tail in the 27~37 age bracket.

Yeah, 8 years of MC was a waste. After the first year or so - you should have called it quits.
You are being frank with everyone that you have made this plan to stay with this woman. Okay, you should have or should start doing 180... Why waste the remaining 40 years of your life with someone who doesn't love you. Sorry, but she bait and switched you on your wedding night. How many times did you actually get some action from her? 5 times in 20+ years? She likely knew she was ovulating and did it to get pregnant so you wouldn't leave. She spent YOUR money.
You owe her nothing. Her turning OFF the sex when you married her - means the rapes had little to do with her sex. (What was sex like before the wedding?) What has she done to HELP the marriage? 10% vs. you? You gave her the power over you, likely - she gets off on it.

Of course, your penis is not working as good as it used to. It's an unused tool. When I was having ED problems, my doc said I needed to do some "practice" to get help get it working again.
You had your issues when you were young, she took advantage of you. So, do something about it today.
1 - start 180, go to the gym and work out. Spend less and less time with the hollow wife.
2 - see an IC, all just for YOU.
3 - see a sex therapist.
4 - Start going to strip clubs... have fun with the ladies. Sure it's "cheating" but she cheated you out of your life.
5 - prepare for divorce or offer her the following "divorce and we go our separate ways - and you don't get to be mad because I want sex with you. *OR* we keep things the way we are now, but I'm going out to have my release with strippers and will start dating and having sex with other women."

You may say it, you may prefer, but the reality is - YOU actually do have the choice and ability to change yourself, to want someone to hold hands with, to cuddle and to have sex with. Your warning post still remains useful.

There is little honor staying in a loveless marriage.

Thing is... you telling her "Divorce or open marriage" will likely result in her starting to have sex with you.

Supporting those who want to divorce or reconcile. Not every relationship is the same.

Last edited by TaDor; Yesterday at 02:10 AM. Reason: corrected some typos
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post #506 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 08:51 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

There are women all over ther world who would LOVE to have a man like you... that would stay by their side and they would love you and share their bodies with you.

Stop letting her continue to hurt yourself. Someday, you will figure this out and if its 20 years from now, you will hate yourself for not doing it sooner.

Supporting those who want to divorce or reconcile. Not every relationship is the same.
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post #507 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 09:01 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

You sound like your marriage from nearly day one, has been emotionally abusive. I think it's really true that we can become so used to a bad place in life, whatever that is...a relationship, job, friendship, etc..that we accept it as normal. That to think of leaving it would be abnormal. I think people in these types of relationships have to get to the point where the pain of staying outweighs the pain of leaving. I think leaving your marriage would lessen your depression and really help you see life (and yourself) in a whole new way. ((hugs))

Sometimes, you fall in love with the most unexpected person, at the most unexpected time. ~ Unknown
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post #508 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 09:16 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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4 - Start going to strip clubs... have fun with the ladies. Sure its "cheating" but she cheated you out of your life.
You're suggesting for a married guy to cheat on his wife? That's far from his only option. His wife sounds cold and cruel, but cheating is never a good thing to do.

Sometimes, you fall in love with the most unexpected person, at the most unexpected time. ~ Unknown
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post #509 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 02:20 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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You're suggesting for a married guy to cheat on his wife? That's far from his only option. His wife sounds cold and cruel, but cheating is never a good thing to do.


Actually in his situation it might be helpful. He might have sex with another, and afterwards decide it wasn't that important and thus remove resentment towards his wife.

Or have sex with another, like it, and thus get strength to leave.

Never say never.
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post #510 of 522 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 02:28 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Actually in his situation it might be helpful. He might have sex with another, and afterwards decide it wasn't that important and thus remove resentment towards his wife.

Or have sex with another, like it, and thus get strength to leave.

Never say never.
It's not good advice on a marriage forum, especially with betrayed spouses here dealing with infidelity, imo.

Sometimes, you fall in love with the most unexpected person, at the most unexpected time. ~ Unknown
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