The immovable object. - Page 4 - Talk About Marriage
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post #46 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Fozzy, I came here to help others and to be an example of what not to do. Someone from another forum pointed me to a thread here and I decided to stay a while.

Just because I do not have the guts and energy and risk tolerance to take good advice does not mean I can't offer it.
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post #47 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 08:26 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

What exactly would you be risking by acting on the advice you give others?
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post #48 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-09-2015, 10:24 PM
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The immovable object.

H, thank you for the heads up. If there's one thing I am, it is to be stubborn and never give up. Even when I know it's not possible.

I'm "different" than most people, or like to think I am. When I was 12-13 years old I realized that for every choice there are finite numbers of consequences. Like a decision tree. Like backgammon (spare me the randomness part ). The problem is, I would see the damned decision tree in my mind's eye - like in Minority Report.

Meaning, I'm usually many moves ahead of most people I interact with because this is how my mind works. The fact I studied decision analysis in college was no coincidence

As such, I'm not going to accept my fate. I never have. There's a way out of every mousetrap if you look hard enough. Maybe with a limb gone but out.

The rest is just gravy.
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post #49 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 01:48 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

You are where I was I would say 5 years ago... it's not a pleasant situation to be in... How I got out of it? How did I do it? I fought all the negativity. I was depressed too. I know you are not interested in change, but to me your utmost priority would be to find a treatment for your depression that really works. I know you've tried, but you need to keep trying... only then you will be able to "live" your life. If that means divorcing, so be it. You only live once...
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post #50 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 10:33 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

Hold…
A note from a semi-frequent lurker and even more semi frequent poster on TAM. I was also a frequent visitor and read though many of your posts on the MB forums for a year or two back in the day, and I did in fact participate in one or two of your posts.

I have visited the MB forums on occasions during the last few years, but it seems to me that some of the veterans there seem to be so set in certain ways, and not particularly welcoming, that most new posters often feel thrashed and their questions not addressed, and the ‘case count’ seems to have decreased significantly.

Reading your post here in TAM, I see that there is nothing new for Hold under the sun, even after all these years. You post are filled with total resignation, and with the purpose of warning others to not follow your example.

Fair enough. You have been given all manner of advice, suggestions and encouragement, and the occasional 2*4 over so many years. It is in the final analysis your own life, and your own decisions.

I cannot but think that while many have said that alcohol is the cruelest of mistresses, your own views about yourself seems to be way up there as well.

Not that I cannot relate or see where you are coming from. I too live in a celibate marriage. (sexless is often defined as less than 10 times a year), and since it has been almost 3 years for me, well, the difference between sexless and celibate seems a bit fluid, I am not sure where one end and the other start. (Some argue that celibate as a term that should be applied if there is mutual consent, sexless if it is not.. I don’t really know)

Anyway, I too, took a swing at MB, did what I could, applied the principles as best as I was able for a couple of years , but, as has often been mentioned, (and I am paraphrasing) a certain man that was pretty intelligent remarked that if you expect a different outcome when trying the same thing over and over again,.. you need to examine your head.

So, for the last two years, I have done my version of a 180.. Amongst others, I have taken up road biking and swimming with a vengeance. I really enjoy it, and the other results are also great. While I was never fat, I had a bit of extra padding that had been added over the years that I did not like. The satisfaction of putting on some very old jeans I had back in the closet that now fit, to be completely comfortable in a pair of swim trunks on the beach (I live in the SE of US and the beach is always there) having a defined ‘v-shape’ up front… priceless… spending what I used to spend on wife on a bit of a wardrobe update for myself. I have taken up playing music again, and while it is a purely amateur undertaking, being in a band, playing out… seeing people move, and dance and enjoying themselves to the music I am part of creating… deng.. it is great.

Being out and about and getting hit on… (not acted on… it is flirting, but am keeping it at a distance) , even better, and it does show that I am perceived as attractive… it has helped tremendously in terms of my self-image and overall enjoyment of life. My wife can stay with her romance novels and candy cane whatever games.

I noted your and observations about your working out. It was not as satisfying for you as it was for me, but, you already know that. I still hope that you, in your current misery, will find something that you enjoy doing that entails exercise.

I will be around for a bit longer however. I still need to add quite a bit more to the kids college funds (D is 15, S is 12), but I am now in the process of a job change that will entail working for an outfit that means that I will get a small studio apartment, and quite a bit of travelling. I will work my a$$ off, and live carefully to add as much to their future education in terms of money, but it is going to be a transition for me, and divorce papers will be served some time after I have established myself in a new environment. Unlike many, I will not contest anything; she can have the house for all I care.

Now, I do not think of my wife as evil, quite the contrary. She is an absolutely fantastic mother, a great chef and the house is always clean… (however, in MB speak, I have no/low need for Domestic Support, and I did not marry her to get a maid and a cook she is hard working, careful with money, and very supportive of her friends.

So, she is into many things, however, she is not into ME… she needs me, but does not want me, she does not invite me to her bed. In some ways, it may be that me leaving will allow her to find a man that can either rekindle her passions, or, find a man that does not have much of, or no need, for physical intimacy, but can meet her other needs very well. I know very well, that most women DO want and crave that intimacy, that experience.. that bond that only exist amongst lovers, and I will find that kind of woman

You have decided to stay, and by your own descriptions, you have disconnected from her, and in fact have invited her into your misery, almost as if you are out for vengeance.

You are set in your ways. I have decided to make changes. I think I am better for it.

I will not ask you to reconsider: too many have, and you seem determined to stay where you are. I did want to touch base however, and to let you know that I have learned quite a bit from your postings over the years, and appreciated your stories.

Last edited by ericthesane; 06-10-2015 at 10:41 AM.
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post #51 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Anon: Harder to stay in an unhappy marriage if you feel you are valuable. If you feel you owe it to yourself to go out and try to find someone else. Then you blow up your life. And you fail to find anyone else. And you are worse off than before you started the journey of self-improvement.

Also, staying out of shape with high blood pressure has a cool side effect. Impotence. You see, now I can snuggle with H2 and she can stroke my cheek and my arms and my rib cage and there is absolutely no reaction "down there". We can spoon and I can put my crotch right up against her butt and she can wiggle it around and there is no reaction.

See, in the past if we spooned then I would get an erection. Which would give H2 the unspoken signal that she could still turn me on and I was still "hooked". And would lead to the immediate end of the spooning session, since she would pull away. Now we can spoon for as long as I want and there is no pesky erection to interfere with things. And, whereas in the past I was the one who felt rejected and undesirable, now she is the one questioning why she can no longer trigger a reaction in me. Win-win! So remind me why I should try to get back into shape and lower my blood pressure and regain the ability to have erections?

Now, if we divorced, and I wanted to try to have sex with someone else, then being impotent would be a hindrance. But since I have no intention of ever doing that, the downside is irrelevant.

IA: This is not a recent condition. As Eric notes, I am in the same place I was 13 years ago when I arrived at MB. I spent another 10 years trying to improve things. Nothing worked. Now I am done trying to make my marriage better. I am working a different plan.

Eric: Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to offer details of your journey. I am glad that my postings over the years were helpful to you.

Last edited by Holdingontoit; 06-10-2015 at 02:24 PM.
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post #52 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 05:06 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

You are allowed to wallow, if you like. Just realize that your wallowing impacts the ones you profess to love the most - your kids.

Your kids want you to be happy, successful - to be a pillar of strength that they can lean upon when times get tough. If you are the best you can be, they know that you will always be there as an anchor that provides security and protection. That allows them to take more risks and get more out of their lives.

Don't tell me that you are that anchor right now. Individuals holding as much resentment as you have can not pull off that type of acting job. Your kids know when everything is not exactly right. That knowledge is a burden to them.

If you love your kids, you owe it to them to do everything you can to make yourself better, stronger, happier. Yes, even taking the step of divorcing their mother may be a better outcome for your kids over time. When you take steps to improve yourself, you enhance the odds that they will find ways to be strong & happy, as well. No one wants a dad who has resigned himself to going through the motions. We want our parents to be beacons of hope and enablers of opportunity.

You can be this. Find one segment of life you can hang your hat on. Work on becoming a good photographer to take great pix of your future grandkids. Or practice the guitar so that you can become the cool grandpa singing folk songs on the porch for your kids and their spouses. Or take woodworking classes so that you can make furniture that fills up your kids' houses. You don't have to be 100% Alpha male. But you will benefit - and your kids will benefit - if you pick one thing that can engage your passions. You will lift your own spirits and make it possible for everyone around you to experience more happiness as well.
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post #53 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 06:02 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

H-

I think you could write a wicked book about your perspective.

Go as deep as possible into your outlook and give the story of your marriage.

You can wallow in it and simultaneously turn it into something creative.

You are thoughtful and a good writer.

I bet you would discover something if you did this.
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post #54 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-10-2015, 06:35 PM
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post #55 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

MT: You are correct. I am not being the best me I can be. And that negatively impacts my kids. I am not stupid. I realize that. I guess I don't love them enough to do better. The nice part of being incredibly depressed all the time is that you can't feel much of anything. So even when my heart cries out in shame that I won't do what my kids want and need me to do, there isn't much pain.

The funny thing is, given how my entire life is ruled by my shame, I can't be shamed into making any changes. I am so used to feeling ashamed of myself that it is just one more log on the fire. It actually reinforced my current path. I say to myself "see, you are a worthless piece of crap, you deserve to be unhappy, you don't deserve anything good, so don't bother trying to make things better."

That is why I say I need serious help to address my mental health issues. Help that is expensive and intrusive and a huge time commitment. Far beyond what I am willing to invest in myself.

I have never had any hobbies. I have been skilled at anything practical. There has never been anything productive that engaged my passions. People ask "if you could do anything you want without financial worries, what would you spend your time doing?" My answer is "I have no idea." So when you say "take up woodworking or learn to play the guitar" it has zero resonance for me. My flower gardens are ugly. The projects I build are ugly. Functional. But ugly.

See, I need to conquer the depression before I can hope to have any success at a hobby or skill. And without hope for satisfaction, I have little motivation to do the enormous work of overcoming the depression. It is simply too overwhelming for me. Too much. even to bite off in baby steps. The baby steps are just a series of failures that confirm my worthlessness.

The little world I have carefully constructed around myself is very constraining but it is self-reinforcing and permits me to function. If I allow cracks in. Cracks of hope. Cracks of desire for something more. The whole edifice comes down. I am terrified I will have a complete mental collapse. Mental breakdown. My wife and kids are financially dependent on me. I already am far short of saving enough for retirement. I literally cannot afford to have a breakdown and lose my job and put my professional career at risk just to chase what seems to me to be a pipe dream. If that means I never achieve happiness or satisfaction, so be it.

Like I said, I know this is bad. But it could be worse. I am not willing to take any risk of things getting worse. I have done this for 22 years. I can keep doing it. And I intend to.
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post #56 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 11:18 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

Have you told all of this to your wife? Have you sat down and had a transparent talk with her, and your kids (where appropriate)?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #57 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 11:37 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

active nihilism, dude.

your suffering is the only thing you are devoted to. So dive into that black hole and see what is at the bottom.

I think you will find there is no bottom

to feel that could be oddly exhilarating. remember, you love your suffering.
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post #58 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

JLD: We spent 8 years in MC. I was completely honest with her. Made no difference. She denied and deflected. She called spending all our savings and running up huge credit card debt (done while we were in MC) "I lost track". She was a finance major in college and worked for accounting and management consulting firms. She didn't "lose track". She didn't care what it did to our finances. She didn't care what it did to me. Or maybe she did. The MC at the time of the discovery was stupefied that she could have done this and then tried to hide it and then lied about it.

I no longer believe I owe her honestly and transparency. I tried that and got punished for it.

Yes, I know it was my choice to stay. I wanted to be with my kids. I didn't want some other man to raise my kids. Or molest my D. I got what I aimed for when I chose to stay. Now my kids are off to college and I have no plans or hopes for the future. My goal for the past 10 years has been accomplished. I am left adrift.

I am in a very dark place. I wish I could say I am looking for a way out. But I am not.
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post #59 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 12:20 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
JLD: We spent 8 years in MC. I was completely honest with her. Made no difference. She denied and deflected. She called spending all our savings and running up huge credit card debt (done while we were in MC) "I lost track". She was a finance major in college and worked for accounting and management consulting firms. She didn't "lose track". She didn't care what it did to our finances. She didn't care what it did to me. Or maybe she did. The MC at the time of the discovery was stupefied that she could have done this and then tried to hide it and then lied about it.

I no longer believe I owe her honestly and transparency. I tried that and got punished for it.

Yes, I know it was my choice to stay. I wanted to be with my kids. I didn't want some other man to raise my kids. Or molest my D. I got what I aimed for when I chose to stay. Now my kids are off to college and I have no plans or hopes for the future. My goal for the past 10 years has been accomplished. I am left adrift.

I am in a very dark place. I wish I could say I am looking for a way out. But I am not.
It sounds like she has demons of her own.

I would try again. I would be transparent. It is for you, Holding. You do it for yourself, so you can have peace.

I do not think there is any true and complete happiness without transparency.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #60 of 517 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Jld: I agree with you. I don't think there is inner peace or happiness without honesty. But like I said, not aiming for inner peace or happiness. I am aiming for balance and stability. I am aiming to stay in my house. I am aiming to pay for D18's college ($55,000 per year). Those things cannot happen if we divorce.

If I am transparent, Mrs. Hold might choose to divorce me. I am willing to live without peace or happiness. She might not be. I cannot afford to take that risk.

Yes, that means I am being selfish. Yes, that means she is making decisions based on less than full information. She did that to me for years and years. I can live with doing it back to her. I actually enjoy doing it back to her. Please do not ask me to give up that tiny bit of pleasure. Other than hugging my kids, it is pretty much the only pleasure I have left in life. I will not let it go.
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