The immovable object. - Page 7 - Talk About Marriage
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post #91 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-18-2015, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Good news. We got a date for surgery in July. Time to cut this out and move on.
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post #92 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-24-2015, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Meeting with cancer surgeon today. Meeting with reconstruction surgeon Monday. Getting very real. H2 getting really nervous. Understandable. She pulls away when she gets stressed. Trying hard not to take it personally and just be there for her by doing tasks and leaving her alone.
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post #93 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-25-2015, 06:58 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

Hey man- you are a good guy.

If you were a bad guy, you could rip H2's heart out right about now.

I wonder if part of her knows she doesn't deserve what you're giving her right now.

After the surgery and some time for recovery, I wonder if it would be productive for you to open up a dialogue on this.

She can't be thinking of life the same way after something like this.
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post #94 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-25-2015, 09:45 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
I Of course I am not getting what I wanted. Story of my life.
Happiness is not about getting what you want. As Personal pointed out, most of us don't get what we want. Indeed, those that do get everything they want are often the unhappiest of us all.

Happiness is also not something that you work for or achieve. There is a stupid saying about how happiness is like a puppy's tail. A platitude, no doubt, but there is truth to it: the more you chase it, the more elusive it is. But if you forget about it, it comes along behind you.

These are hard times for you, and it sounds like you have had a hard life. But you also seem to have decided both to give up on ever getting what you want, yet remain determined to be miserable about that fact. Why is that?
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post #95 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

AA: I have actually pretty much always had a blessed and easy life. I am simply determined to be miserable. I have squandered the blessings the Lord heaped on me by being fearful and lazy. At this point I feel I deserve to be miserable, on account of giving in to my fears and laziness. I do my best to bring that state about by my internal thoughts and imagination. I focus on the negative at all costs. Do not fret about me. I have been miserable for 50 years and shall likely be miserable to the end of my days. I am used to it and it seems to suit me.

Pray for my wife. Pray that my children get many more years with their mother. That is enough for me.
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post #96 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 08:39 AM
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The immovable object.

One person's fear is another person's deep understanding of outcomes and chances. And one person's laziness is another person's work/life balance.

Nothing wrong with such choices, much as society tries to shame us out of them.
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post #97 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

John: Thanks but I am not buying. My laziness is watching tv or playing video games instead of hitting the gym and having the body and stamina my wife might find more desirable. It is watching tv instead of going though the "honey do" list and efficiently accomplishing tasks. My wife is an Acts of Service kinda girl and I have stopped acting. I am not docking myself for coming home from work so I can play with my kids. I am docking myself for not making myself into the best me I can be. For settling for less than my best. As a passive-aggressive response to H2 not providing for my needs. Instead of maximizing my value and then taking the new, better me on the road to find a worthy partner if H2 did not respond favorably.

We had a very nice weekend together. I am still not feeling grateful. That is between my ears.
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post #98 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-28-2015, 06:55 PM
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The immovable object.

Best one can be? For whom? I am a firm believer in Pareto's Law, and I'm not interested in 80% work for 20% gain. Or, like it is in relationships like ours, 95% work for 5% gain.

I accept my partner with her flaws and expect the same of her. If she's going to hold me up to Olympic athlete fitness standard, Trump earning potential, and H1B worker devotion, then we have a big problem somewhere.
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post #99 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

John: I am not the best "me" by my standards. I am not happy with myself. One of the reasons I stayed with H2 during the worst of times was because I could not imagine there exists any woman who would desire me.

If you are well pleased with yourself, bully for you. Seriously. Well done and no snark intended.

But I am not. And I am unwilling to put in the effort to transform into the person that I would be proud to become. I am not even trying to make progress in that direction. And for that failure I judge myself and find myself wanting and execute sentence in full measure of harshness. Which is only what I feel I deserve.

Which is all fluff and nonsense. All that matters right now is tomorrow's surgery and H2 surviving. My kids need their mother. And I am terrified at the prospect of being alone. So prayers and warm thoughts requested on H2's behalf.
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post #100 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 12:16 PM
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The immovable object.

Best wishes - we had a biopsy scare in 1994 and it was not pretty. You're going thru the real thing. But you'll find a way to be strong for your family.

When this is all done both of you need a fresh start. For healing and recovery first, and for relationship afterwards. But first things first.

Best wishes for a great outcome!
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post #101 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 12:25 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

I feel your hurt. To invest a life in a marriage and be deprived of sex, needing to pay one's way out, and just live in hope (where little exists) is a tough, tough, tough job.

Keep on hanging on. Do what makes you happy. I don't think your life is as dysmal (though sometimes years of rejection and the deprivation of sex can make a male feel that way).

The only advantage of being in a marriage of this kind is that it sometimes makes you more creative. (When I've had great sex, it made me too much inward looking, partner-focussed and hardly creative.)

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
Several posters have called me out in John117's thread. To avoid threadjacking, I am creating this thread and will refrain from commenting on my situation on John's thread.

For the record, I am not looking to resolve my personal or marital problems. I have invested almost 20,000 posts on various marriage forums over the past 13+ years. I have tried everything I am interested in trying. At this point have given up hope of making major changes and am pursuing a different path and a different payoff.

This thread is intended to provide the backstory to those of you who do not know me form other forums so you will understand my background and perspective when I post on other threads.

Married 23 years next month. 2 kids - S20 and D18. Classic victim of bait and switch. Sex stopped literally the day we got married. No sex wedding night. Sex at first honeymoon hotel after which H2 announces "now it is consummated and you cannot get it annulled". No further sex during honeymoon (got turned down every night "too tired" etc) except last night when I had to beg. Should have filed for annulment upon airplane touching down back in USA. But I was foolish and believed in vows, better or worse, marriage involves work, etc. Stupid me.

Five years later we have 2 kids and go away for week's vacation. As with honeymoon, sex only 1 time and numerous turndowns. Including the night of our anniversary, after taking her to dinner in the same restaurant where I proposed, watching fireworks, then staying in fancy hotel. Upon return home, I insist on MC to address sexless marriage.

We spent 8 years in MC with various MCs and sex therapists. Not once did H2 do any of the "homework" assignments. Not once did H2 live up to agreements we made. Went on vacation several times during this period. No sex. One of the MCs even said to her "your H works hard to support you as a SAHM, I know you work hard caring for the kids but next week you are going to be away from home at a hotel along with your H with no responsibilities, don't you think that maybe you could have some sex with him on vacation?" You guessed it, no sex on vacation either.

2 years into MC H2 admitted she had been raped multiple times. She maintains that the rapes have no impact on her sexuality and gets violently angry if I suggest perhaps they do. Shortly after disclosing the rapes, H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit card debt. That was a decade ago and we are still not recovered from the financial devastation.

Ten years ago our last MC "fired" us saying "if you are not going to make any changes, then you are wasting your time and mine talking to me. I can't keep stealing your money."

D18 leaves for college in the fall. Many would say now is the time to divorce. I have no interest in doing so.

I was unhappy as a single person before marriage. Not very successful with females. Hence my susceptibility to H2's allure. And my skepticism as to whether a happy life would await me after divorce. I was unhappy when I was young and had much potential workwise (professionally, I have not lived up to my academic accomplishments) and could offer the prospect of raising children together. I cannot envision being anything but unhappy now that I am older and relatively unsuccessful and no longer have "I will be a great dad to your kids" as a selling point. I never had friends. I never did much but come home to my apartment and watch tv / play computer games. No point in divorcing for that, I can do that while married to H2.

The bottom line is that I am clinically depressed if not a full blown personality disorder. The work needed to overcome that is more than I am willing to invest. Then there is the impotence, much of which is caused by my lack of exercise and my unhealthy diet. I have been in therapy and took A-D meds on and off since age 17. Never made any difference in my mood or outlook. I did exercise for a time. Ran a half marathon. Dismal results and hated every minute of training. I did a course of P90X. Got in good shape. Did not feel any better and made no difference to H2.

To get to "happiness" I would need to invest time and money (which, with 2 kids in college, I have none of) to work on myself physically and mentally. Major therapy. Maybe ECT. Change diet. Exercise more. All in the hope that it might make a difference and that I could become someone I have never been. Non-depressed.

I have been depressed as long as I can remember. Back to nursery school. The concept that if I worked hard enough and invested enough effort I could overcome the depression seems impossible to me.

What I know is that divorce blows up my world. Kids take a hit. I take a huge financial hit (in my state 20+ year marriages lead to permanent alimony). I can't afford to retire ever as it is. How will I make ends meet on half of "not enough"? You are going to try to convince me I will meet some wonderful woman who is financially comfortable and wants to take me on as a reclamation project? Really? So what is "for sure" is that there are huge practical and financial and emotional downsides. All in the hope of a better future? It doesn't even come close to balancing.

Of course, it would balance if you assigned a large negative value to living unhappy and depressed. I do not. This is how I have lived my whole life. I don't know anything else. So to me, this is not negative. This is baseline. This is how life is.

You might feel compelled to entice me with fantasy stories about how I can learn to be happy. H2 enticed me with those same stories. Look how that turned out. I am not gong to be fooled twice.
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post #102 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 12:33 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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(I get so ashamed of my impotence that I refuse to have sex). .
You shouldn't! This is happens at our age.

What works for me is (i) trying out something new, some new position, or a position that makes me feel more dominant -- like doggie (ii) going in for some other form of sex which she enjoys... a sensual massage or even masturbating her to climax. (This is often enough to arouse me!)
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post #103 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 12:34 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

This may sound unscientific, but I believe that sometimes depression can be linked to a lack of sex.

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Can I accept it? No.

I don't see any disconnect. All my choices are sub-optimal given my treatment resistant depression. The fact that I chose one doesn't mean I am pleased with it. I am a seething ball of resentment because I hate that I am too lazy and negative to even try to create new alternatives. To some, that would suggest that I should do the work and try to create additional options. To me, it just reinforces my determination to punish myself for being weak.

What did you expect? Don't you think most suicide bombers are seething balls of resentment when they strap on the explosive vest?

Some people when facing the Kobayashi Maru scenario find acceptance. Some go down fighting. Some try to cheat death and reprogram the simulator. And some of us overload the engines and blow ourselves up, hoping to take down the enemy with us. Kahn triggered the Genesis device. Not all of us are cut out to be heroes.
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post #104 of 563 (permalink) Old 07-29-2015, 03:46 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

Your story sounds alot like mine. I know bait and switch all to well. Let me offer a diagnosis here. I think what went wrong for you is that your wife was a SAHM. That killed alot of things for me, most notably the way I thought about myself and my marriage. Taking on all the financial burden was too much. My plan for the future is different from your's, I plan to leave after my youngest is out of college.
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post #105 of 563 (permalink) Old 08-02-2015, 01:40 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

I don't believe women indulge in bait-and-switch on purpose. The name would suggest it is something deliberate.

They can't help doing it. Nature (or the superior beings from another planet that created us)made it that way.

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Your story sounds alot like mine. I know bait and switch all to well. Let me offer a diagnosis here. I think what went wrong for you is that your wife was a SAHM. That killed alot of things for me, most notably the way I thought about myself and my marriage. Taking on all the financial burden was too much. My plan for the future is different from your's, I plan to leave after my youngest is out of college.
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