The immovable object. - Page 9 - Talk About Marriage
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post #121 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

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I think this is a good idea. It is high time for some emotional transparency.
We had 8 years of emotional transparency during MC. I told her what I needed. She told me to pound sand. I decided to stay anyway over finances and the kids. Finances and kids are still an issue for me.

The chance that she would react more favorably to emotional transparency now than she did 10 years ago is not enough to motivate me to leave my shell. I hate this. I hated the 8 years of MC more. I am not going back to honesty and openness and getting slice into Hold filet every other Wednesday.

I get a perverse pleasure from knowing that the shoe is now on the other foot. For years she pretended to find me attractive and I foolishly pursued her. In vain. Now I pretend and she pursues me. Trying to get me to let down my walls and be vulnerable. She will pursue in vain. As I did. I am never going to back to where she can reject me the way she did for the first 13 years of our marriage.

If that means I never become happy, so be it. I don't expect to ever be happy either way. Happiness is an illusion. The only reward is playing the game well. I am playing well lately. She adores me. She wishes she could get me to go back to adoring her the way I used to. I will never give her that satisfaction again.

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post #122 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 08:42 PM
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The immovable object.

Does she know about the last sentence?
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post #123 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-09-2015, 09:42 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

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We had 8 years of emotional transparency during MC. I told her what I needed. She told me to pound sand. I decided to stay anyway over finances and the kids. Finances and kids are still an issue for me.

The chance that she would react more favorably to emotional transparency now than she did 10 years ago is not enough to motivate me to leave my shell. I hate this. I hated the 8 years of MC more. I am not going back to honesty and openness and getting slice into Hold filet every other Wednesday.

I get a perverse pleasure from knowing that the shoe is now on the other foot. For years she pretended to find me attractive and I foolishly pursued her. In vain. Now I pretend and she pursues me. Trying to get me to let down my walls and be vulnerable. She will pursue in vain. As I did. I am never going to back to where she can reject me the way she did for the first 13 years of our marriage.

If that means I never become happy, so be it. I don't expect to ever be happy either way. Happiness is an illusion. The only reward is playing the game well. I am playing well lately. She adores me. She wishes she could get me to go back to adoring her the way I used to. I will never give her that satisfaction again.
Well then...

Resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the person you resent to die.

Good luck with that.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #124 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 08:03 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

I'm going to be harsh with you because I think you're lying to yourself.

you are not getting any pleasure out of this situation.

honestly man you come off like a woman who says everything is "fine" but expects her husband to guess what is really wrong and fix it for her.

you have concocted this story for yourself that you are really in control of the situation and have "turned the tables" but it is very clear that you have not.

you are still hoping for your wife to save you and you resent her because she doesn't. on top of it you try to hide it and resent her more for not uncovering it!

in other words, you are setting her (and yourself) up to fail.
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post #125 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 08:49 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

Holdingontoit,
Which begs the question, why are you telling us all this stuff?
You are obviously resigned to the status quo AND get some sort of perverse pleasure from it.
It seems you are deriving pleasure from all the negative aspects of your life.
I guess that's a choice that you have made and if that's the way you want to live, by all means, go for it.

The part I don't understand is why are you telling TAM if you have absolutely no desire to change anything?

Just curious.
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post #126 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

FSJ is correct. Resentment does not help achieve positive outcomes. I am not trying to obtain positive outcomes.

Anon is wrong. I do get pleasure from this. I got to stay with my kids the entire 18 years and watch them grow up and participate on a daily basis. Do you think my wife would have let me stay if I had been honest? I get pleasure from living in my nice house. If we divorced I would be living in a small apartment. And yes, I get pleasure from knowing my wife stayed with me all these years even though it probably would have been in her best interest to divorce me in 2005 when we stopped doing MC. She could be remarried now to a guy who could afford to buy her the cars and house furnishings and remodelings and vacations and jewelry and dinner at fancy restaurants that she desires. Staying with me she will never have those things. And yet she stays. I consider that a formidable accomplishment. I am actually surprised that I pulled this off.

She married me under false pretenses. She said "smart is sexy" and that she was tired of players and bad boys and she wanted a pleasant guy who would tend to her and her kids. She got that. But she lied. She didn't really find that sexy. She just said that to lure me in.

Now I am keeping her tied to me by being incredibly loving and supportive during her fight against cancer. She adores me in a way that she never did before. I can see in her eyes and the way she smiles at behaviors that used to make her cringe. I have lured her in. And I am very pleased with myself that I have been able to accomplish this despite her knowing full well that I resent her for not providing the sex that I craved back when I was capable of and motivated to share that with her.

Am I happy? No. Do I wish I had a sex life? Yes. Is that ever going to change? Probably not. Just because I am disappointed in her for misleading me and disappointed in myself for staying does not mean that I cannot derive pleasure from some aspects of our relationship. Once you eliminate "winning" as an objective there are still tactical victories to be had along the way to ultimate strategic defeat.

Quote:
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The part I don't understand is why are you telling TAM if you have absolutely no desire to change anything?
Great question. 3 reasons.

First, as a warning to anyone earlier in the path on what might end up happening if you stay in too long. Once you know there is nothing you can do while married to your current spouse that will get you what you need, get out. It will only get harder and you will become more warped if you stay.

Second, I write about how I feel to test whether I truly feel this way and truly want to keep doing this. Maybe seeing it in black and white will motivate me to make different decisions in the future.

Third, when you are living behind a mask it feels good to occasionally take off the mask and let the hidden feelings out. I basically have no friends in real life, and my wife is basically the only person I talk to outside work. So I have no outlet other than internet discussion boards for venting my feelings on these topics.

Thanks for asking.

When you can see it coming, duck!

Last edited by Holdingontoit; 09-10-2015 at 09:20 AM.
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post #127 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 09:18 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
Great question. 3 reasons.

First, as a warning to anyone earlier in the path on what might end up happening if you stay in too long. Once you know there is nothing you can do while married to your current spouse that will get you what you need, get out. It will only get harder and you will become more warped if you stay.

Second, I write about how I feel to test whether I truly feel this way and truly want to keep doing this. Maybe seeing it in black and white will motivate me to make different decisions in the future.

Third, when you are living behind a mask it feels good to occasionally take off the mask and let the hidden feelings out. I basically have no friends in real life, and my wife is basically the only person I talk to outside work. So I have no outlet other than internet discussion boards for venting my feelings on these topics.

Thanks for asking.
OK,
That makes sense.

I really can see how built up resentment can get you to where you are. Hell, if I get turned down for sex once, I seem to remember it for years. To me it's a motivator to do whatever it is I need to do to become a better husband. However, if this happened to me on a daily basis, I could see myself in your situation, IF I STAYED.

I have to tell you, I don't think I could make it as long as you have.

You would have probably done well in the trenches during World War I.
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post #128 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 10:41 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

H-- what i see from the outside are a lot of intricate layers and justifications protecting something underneath.

It is like scar tissue.

My question is have you ever really tried to get beneath this and see who you really are under all of these schemes and resentments?

What comes through to me is a sensitive, caring, intelligent guy. The deviousness is a pose.

Can you embrace your real nature and stop being ashamed?

Who cares if your wife digs it or not? Are you going to let your entire being be defined by her?
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post #129 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

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H-- what i see from the outside are a lot of intricate layers and justifications protecting something underneath.
Correct. I am injured. I don't intend to cure the disease. This is how I choose to treat the symptoms.

Quote:
My question is have you ever really tried to get beneath this and see who you really are under all of these schemes and resentments?
Yes. Did personal therapy several times. Teens. Twenties. Thirties. Fourties. Never made any difference. Took various AD meds. Took ADHD meds. Nothing made any difference. I never had the guts to make changes. I accepted the path of least resistance. I never took charge and created the life I wanted.

Quote:
What comes through to me is a sensitive, caring, intelligent guy. The deviousness is a pose.
I was a sensitive caring guy. Got me cut up and bleeding. Now I am a sensitive caring guy hiding behind high thick walls. I am not prepared to ever take them down.

As I have said, this is merely the dynamic with my wife playing out in reverse. She started our marriage with high thick walls and kept me out. That is why she rejected me sexually and never reciprocated affection or romantic gestures. She was too busy protecting herself. I told her my warmth and caring would eventually work their way in. She did not believe either that I truly cared or that I would ever get inside.

Now she has discovered that she was wrong on both counts. I did care and I am now inside her walls. Problem is, whereas I was an open book when we met, now I am the one with high thick walls that I am hiding behind. And whereas I had tools in my arsenal to slowly and steadily slip through cracks in her wall, H2 does not have what would be needed to overcome the obstacles I have set in her path. What she will offer will be too little, too late.

Quote:
Can you embrace your real nature and stop being ashamed?
No. I am worthless and weak. I am a hideous troll. I deserve to remain unhappy because I did not have the guts to demand better treatment years ago or to leave when I could have afforded the cost. Now I am old and tired and do not have the motivation or energy to fight for what I need.

No woman will ever desire me. Including my wife. So I might as well stay with the mother of my children and the woman entitled to permanent alimony should we divorce. Her being stuck with this version of me is fair recompense for the way she treated me all these years.

Quote:
Who cares if your wife digs it or not? Are you going to let your entire being be defined by her?
I am letting my entire being be defined by me. My worth is 100% defined by whether I can attract women. And I cannot. Never could. Never will. And that attitude is self-fulfilling.

As long as I see myself as worthless, I see no reason to blow up my world and my kids' worlds in the vain pursuit of "happiness" or "personal fulfillment".

When you can see it coming, duck!
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post #130 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 04:48 PM
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Re: The immovable object.

H-- the above is all well written, but I don't really believe you believe it.

Right now, today, you have a pretty big opening to take this in a different direction.

Just like you wish you had taken a different course many years ago, I will bet that you will wish you had seized this opportunity years from now if you just continue as you are.
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post #131 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-10-2015, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Maybe. We'll see.

We stopped MC 10 years ago. Everyone who knew me then thought we would be divorced within 2 years. Or no later than when the kids left home. We are still together. I have no intention of leaving. And I can assure you that I have been a seething ball of resentment the entire time.

Will I regret not trying to reconnect with my wife? Maybe. Right now I am focused on getting her through cancer and seeing what she is physically capable of doing after that. Might not be any choice to make.

Let me turn this around on you. I think we have fairly well established that A2 is like me in that she makes her decisions primarily based on fear. Do you think that she will eventually regret not being more available to you? Even if there is a chance she will, do you think that pointing that "risk" out to her would have ANY impact on her decision to remain unavailable? I don't think so either. Why do you think it will be any different for me?

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post #132 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-13-2015, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Nice day with H2 yesterday. Did chores early and went to a music festival. 5 or 6 hours. She was bored after a while, but stayed because I was enjoying it. We left with 3 or 4 acts to go because I could see she had reached her limit.

Things are much better than they were years ago. I still resent her over needing to eliminate sex to get here. But definitely too good to leave and blow up over the absence of sex.

Some might say I should drop the resentment. But that would mean she won and I lost. To me, my holding on to the resentment balances out her refusing to have sex. For us to stay together, I have to accept sexlessness and she has to accept my resentment.

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post #133 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-13-2015, 09:46 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Let me turn this around on you. I think we have fairly well established that A2 is like me in that she makes her decisions primarily based on fear. Do you think that she will eventually regret not being more available to you? Even if there is a chance she will, do you think that pointing that "risk" out to her would have ANY impact on her decision to remain unavailable? I don't think so either. Why do you think it will be any different for me?
Well, I think you and A2 are quite different. You are very self aware, you just choose not to do anything with your hard won self knowledge.

At times it makes me think, despite your overall high level of self awareness, you have a major blind spot regarding yourself. I can't really understand why you would choose the path you've chosen if you really understood it. Yet you seem to describe it quite well. It is really confusing.

By contrast, I seriously doubt A2 has a high level of introspection right now. I think she mainly just reacts to things with a veneer of OCD.

I think eventually our kids situation will become routine enough that the fog will clear a bit for her and she'll be able to see herself.

At that point, assuming I haven't in the interim found a superhuman level of empathy that has so far eluded me, I do think she'll regret her course, because I will be gone eve if I am still physically there.

By contrast, you are acutely aware of the disconnect and the missed opportunities (one of which you may be watching pass you by right now).
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post #134 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-13-2015, 09:50 AM
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Re: The immovable object.

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Nice day with H2 yesterday. Did chores early and went to a music festival. 5 or 6 hours. She was bored after a while, but stayed because I was enjoying it. We left with 3 or 4 acts to go because I could see she had reached her limit.

Things are much better than they were years ago. I still resent her over needing to eliminate sex to get here. But definitely too good to leave and blow up over the absence of sex.

Some might say I should drop the resentment. But that would mean she won and I lost. To me, my holding on to the resentment balances out her refusing to have sex. For us to stay together, I have to accept sexlessness and she has to accept my resentment.
Again, instead of dropping the resentment, why not just reveal it to her, admit you wish you could let it go, but that it needs to be a joint effort to do that. Are you afraid she'll say "no"?
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post #135 of 479 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The immovable object.

Anon she knows darn well I have resentment over he lack of sex. She doesn't raise the issue because she is not willing to deal with it.

She is understandably and justifiably afraid right now. She is going to need strong chemo. She has never been as grateful and appreciative and "in love" with me as she is now. She tears up when she thinks about how lucky she is that she married a guy who is totally supportive despite my needs not being met. But she is not offering to do anything. No promises of how she is going to make it up to me when she recovers. You can see on her face that the thought occurs to her when she looks at me but she cannot bring herself to say it.

I am actually about as pleased with our marriage as I have ever been. She loves me. She wishes I felt about her the way she currently feels about me. She knows I don't. But she is staying anyway. It is complete role reversal from the first 20 years of our marriage. When I was lusting after her and she was not feeling it. I like it this way and a, not willing to risk changing it in the hopes of finding something "even better".

What am I afraid of? That as soon as I go back to allowing myself to desire her, to allow myself to love her fully and without reservation, without holding part of myself back, then she will go back to rejecting me. We stopped having sex literally the day I said "I do". So she is capable of turning love / affection / sex off like a switch. Yes, I fear she might do it again. I am NEVER going to allow her finger to be on that switch again. I keep the switch turned off so she can't do it to me. Hurts. But at least I have some semblance of control over the outcome.

I am not going back to being under her thumb. Even if it means we will never have the sex life that I want or the emotional closeness I want. I don't expect to ever have that anyway, as I am not willing to pay the price to get there. For our relationship, I am managing the downside only. I have given up any hope of ever having an upside. For my life, I am aiming for upside that involves control and autonomy, and not sharing and fulfillment. Exactly the same as the way she managed our sex life during the years when we had one. Turnabout is fair play.

When you can see it coming, duck!
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