loveiswhereiamnot

Read Intimacy and Desire. Every marriage/LTR has a high desire partner and a low desire partner. How the two people deal with that causes the relationship to grow and deepen or shatter into hurt people feeling rejected and unloved too much of the time.

You definitely want to solve this for both of you before you have kids. Once they are in the picture, especially the first year after birth, sex life becomes even less. She needs to know how important this is to you, it's a deal-breaker at the frequency you are at, barring any medical condition.

The high desire partner always thinks it's easy to fix - just mentally readjust and make it so, it's a matter of will, of trying, like exercising every day. It's not like that. It's probably not about showing her more attention or helping out around the house or flirting. Just read the book, it's too complicated to explain in a post, and it's highly individual.

unbelievable

Sounds like you've been had. Sorry. Before you were married, she avoided actual intercourse but promised "everything else". She promised that after she got a ring, you would get abundant full intercourse. That didn't happen and it appears that she would prefer to grab a bottle of lotion and toss you a bare minimum crumb to get you to hush. I expect that won't last long, either. You are, presumably the same person before and after marriage vows. You probably look, smell, and perform pretty much the same. Shotguns at wedding ceremonies are frowned upon, so she used a verbal promise of limitless sex to get you there.
Whenever people say one thing but do another, ALWAYS believe their actions. A little late, I know, but the advise will come in handy frequently.

Catherine602

Common error in thinking and a harbinger of many problem in relationships in my opinion. I challenge this sad but common clothes thing. It seems so contemptuous of women that i wonder that you bother if you feel so disconnected.

OP You may not like what i am going to say but I think it may help you. The men will light into me but what the hell. Please don't be insulted, my intension is not to hurt but to present something different so taking it for that. What you are doing is common and if you read enough of the posts on TAM, it seems to rarely work.

It's is not my idea but comes from a book that I read "why can't I get through to you" by Terrence Real. I sought the book out because I wanted to find out about the intractable problem of the disconnect in marriages.

It is not about sex - you made two unilateral decisions and she capitulated easily. It may be as simple and at the same time as complicated as that. She likely gets that her feelings mean little in this relationship. It may appear that the future will require her to go along with what you need and want and she has given up try to get you to meet her needs. If that is the case, isn't it sad, can you feel for this woman you love? Step into her shoes for a moment.

Your assumption that her withdrawal of sex is to punish you may be way off the mark. It may mean that you look at the relationship as win - lose. You can't let her win because it would mean you will lose. If her withdrawal is a sign of her unhappiness in the marriage, lecturing her on what you expect is wrong on many levels. You expect so much don't you think? Is winning more important than your marriage?.

If she is disconnected from you, giving her an ultimatum or else will push her further away. Even if I am dead wrong, ultimatum don't work anyway. She will resist as well she should, she can at least control that part of her life. She knows all too well that men talk with their feet - do this or that or I will leave.

Her desire to be a mother is a basic female desire it comes on very strongly as a woman nears 30. It is like your need for sex, if you can so easily dismiss that why is it so difficult for you to see how she dismisses your needs? The fact that she capitulated on this basic need so easily is rather sad. That is another female trait, to give in instead of insisting to be heard.

She may have feared you would think she was trying to control you or that you would think she was a nag. That is a common reaction. No woman wants to be a nag or viewed as controlling. It is better to stuff feelings. Besides, as you can see from the post above men are encouraged to vote with their feet instead of trying to work it out. If you leave this relationship the next will likely end up the same because you will have learned nothing.. You are likely to dominate the major decisions to suit yourself and the new squeeze will withdraw like your wife or fight you and become bitter.

Please try not to do the common and ask more of her instead ask more of yourself. Get in touch with your feelings so that you have the ability to empathize with hers. Your wife has given up because she cant reach you emotionally you don't regard her feelings as important enough to consider an alternate agenda. When you do something for her, is it on your terms? Do you make a big deal about it? Take your statement about bringing up the timing to have a child. Again it seems you decided and you seem to consider it a loss on your scale instead of a loving gesture. Did you come to the decision to on the new timing on your own and then tell her? Can you see this as not giving any consideration to her.

The way you talk about sex - seems you expect her to be grateful that you like to see her get pleasure. Again the terms you use seem to make it about you not her. You give her pleasure because of your need to see her get pleasure not because you want to share your love. Look at all of the things you are doing to get sex? These things are for what you can get out of it dont you think? They do not impress her because you don't know what she needs to feel love and a connection with you. They are all formulas, press button A and sex falls out.

Do you really know what she needs and wants? Do you love her enough to see yourself as she sees you? Can you accept that because of your self-focus that you are not really a good husband. Good husbands have the ability to be in touch with their feelings, realize a relationship is not a win - lose proposition and they really love their female nature the one that feels and will yield to the feelings of others.

That's the way I see it. I think if you go with the standard advice that your marriage may fail. What do you have to gain by thinking outside the box? Maybe the love of a woman and a happy marriage.
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Nikki1023

OK. Your totally wrong there and Ill tell you why. Understand what a birth control pill does to a woman's body. It messes around with her hormones. HORMONES. When a girl cant get wet..its really dosent feel that great, she probably dreads it.

arrrgman

There seem to be some bitter and/or one sided responses coming from both sexes.

Saying "he's been had" I don't think is really fair to her. I doubt this was an intentionally planned con on her part. There is a reason she doesn't want it, and they need to get to the bottom of the reason so that it can be addressed.

Catherine: I feel you missed his point. I don't believe he was trying to glorify himself, and in effect say "see? it's all her!", I think he was trying to illustrate that, aside from those two significant, life-changing issues, he is considerate and loving to her, and that her feelings and satisfaction do matter to him.

Many of the responses here actually seem to highlight what may be the problem: the difference in how men and women perceive marriage and kids. Based on the responses to CupOJoe's comments, many of the men seem to feel his wife is being an unfair, manipulative b!tch. That characterization isn't fair to her.

By comparison, many of the female responses basically boil down to saying nothing the guy does will ever be good enough, and that marriage and kids on the woman's schedule is an accepted requirement to make a woman happy. That isn't fair to him. Marriage, and especially kids, are not decisions that should be rushed, or entered into lightly, and expecting him to kowtow to her timeline is just as wrong as expecting her to kowtow to his timeline.

Perhaps we should approach this from a different angle. Rather than trying to get to the bottom of why she doesn't want sex, let's try to get to the bottom of why he REALLY wants to wait on kids. Perhaps CupOJoe needs to think long and hard about WHY he was reluctant to get married, and WHY he doesn't feel ready for kids. There is never a "right" time, or a time where you will be financially stable enough, so matter how long you wait, so put aside the practical components.

CupOJoe: ask yourself, if you won the lottery today, and got promoted to senior mgmt at your work, so money and stability were not an option, would you then feel ready for kids? Somehow I doubt it. And if not, ask "why not?" In other words, make sure that the problem isn't that you are secretly afraid of committing to her for some reason. On the other hand, if you spend time in self-reflection and decide you really, truly love her, want to spend the rest of your life with her, don't want to imagine life without her, then maybe the problem is just fear or nerves about fatherhood, and it's time to take the plunge.

But you BOTH need to be 100% certain of your love and commitment to each other BEFORE you have kids, because once you do, your lives are forever inextricably linked.

Oh, and Nikki, you may be onto something there. Part of the problem may indeed be hormones. As a man, I admit I have no understanding what-so-ever of the female chemistry. As a married man, I have certainly seen the by-product of hormonal issues! Simple solution to wetness, provided the problem is physical and not emotional: lube.

Hicks

Ok, the first thing you have to do is assess what you want in life. Is the "idea" of a good marriage, or the "look" of a good marriage the same as a good, fulfilling, happy life for you? Today, life is fun and your main problem is lack of sex. Think about 10 years in the future. You have kids to worry about, so your job is extremely important to their well being and therefore a source of stress. You have kids care, a tired wife, day care, school etc. In general life goes from basically fun and care free to very much work with lots of cares and worries. And, without that loving and sexual connection with your wife, you life becomes extremely unfulfilling. And this will last for 20 years. And your sexual desire for your wife will not go away.

I am the guy 20 years in your future and I will tell you do not have children with your wife, until the sexlessness is fixed. And, do not allow "babymaking" to be the cure for sexlessness because that is temporary.

I will also tell you that if you wife is not being sexual with you (and she was in the past), that the story book loving marriage that you feel you have is not something she feels she has. She has major unvoiced complaints in her heart about you as a husband and has run the idea of divorce through her mind many times.

The main thing for you to do is to figure out what you are doing that is not attractive to your wife. Don't ask her outright, she will not be able to answer and will not respect you for asking. One clue, it is hard for a woman to be attracted to a man who's reason for not having a baby is fear based. Have you been operating fear based?

The lack of giving her a baby is a big issue, but the lack of sex started before that. Therefore, you solve the sex problem before the baby problem. And in fact, your mode from now on should be that unless the sex problem can be solved, there will be no babies because you are unwilling to live life like this.

CupOJoe

I don't doubt that and I even stated so in my original post. Please also go back and read the part where I went down on her after she resisted foreplay and she got immediately wet. To me, that points to more of a mental block than a physiological block caused by the pill, but I repeat - I don't doubt or downplay the effect the pill has on women and hormones. In the same way I ask you not to downplay that the pill isn't the whole reason for the wetness problem. My wife refuses to use lube as well because she does not like how it feels.

CupOJoe

Ok so from the responses that have been posted, the major consensus here is that the problem is that I won't agree to have kids at this moment and she wants them now and that led to hurt emotions/feelings/resentment which led to not wanting to have sex. But I feel that the majority of you are missing an important point that Hicks nailed right on the head:

The lack of sex started from well before we ever discussed kids. I agree that the kids issue is huge and plays into the lack of sex, but I don't feel its accurate to pin this entire problem on one main issue.

So I pose these questions to all:

1) Say for hypotheticals that I decide to "man up" or "sh!t or get off the pot" as some of you put it and tell her that I have thought it over and want kids with her now. Do you really think this will magically solve all of the problems and the sex will become more frequent (outside of trying to get pregnant) and better? I somehow doubt it. So if you are one of the people telling me that I have been unfair and should honor her baby wishes immediately, then please by all means tell me what next? And after that? Have any of you been in this situation or have known anyone in this situation and seen it resolved to a positive conclusion? If so please share how they did it.

2) Why does the problem seemingly only manifest itself in the bedroom? If she is that hurt or resentful, shouldn't other areas of our life suffer as well? As I originally posted, we have a great daily relationship. I know some of you may tell me that I am just not seeing it, and she may not feel the same way, but I can honestly say that we get along great and she shows no other signs of resentment or unhappiness when usually if she is unhappy about something it is very difficult for her to hide.

SadSamIAm

I think the sex issue will get worse, not better, once you have a child. Resolve the issue (whatever it is) before bringing kids into the marriage.

Hicks

I don't think it's realistic that you would find a couple that had an unfulfilling sex life, then had a baby, and then started up with a fulfilling sex life. You will find many examples where this is reversed. Knowing that babies frequently diminish wives' sex drives for a long period of years, I would think long and hard about continuing your marriage. What you have to do is elevate in your mind and in you heart how important a sexually fulfilling marriage is to you, in comparison to the other elements of your marriage.

This is the journey you need to take in life, to understand the female sexual response. In short, a man will sexually respond to a woman just by looking, seeing, smelling her or thinking about her (i.e. just being together, married). On the flip side, a woman will not be sexual with a man simply because they are married.

Why do you think your wife is not sexual with you, or what has she told you in the past? I don't recommend asking her now, if you don't know though.

Catherine602

I may not actually have missed his point and I am not minimizing the importance of both people being on board for marriage and children. The main trust of my post was ask him to think about how he came to these pivotal decisions. The number of decision are two - I don't know what meaning you attach to just two but even one decision on a major issue can profoundly effect the stability of the relationship. The main thing is how important the issues are, how did they arrive at a decision and how comfortable each is with the decision.

He is comfortable and happy with the pace and timing of the relationship, it happens that his wife was unhappy for both of them. I wonder why she hung around to marry him if she was not happy with the timing. She could have walked away and find a man who was closer to commitment. She had time, in two yrs she could have been in a relationship with someone who was more comparable. Her mistake was that she staid and was unhappy about it and his mistake was to not recognize the depth of her unhappiness. The fact that she had pregnancy fears cropped up at this time and she stopped having sex with him was to me a big red flag. The withdrawal of sex may well have been a communication of her unhappiness.

The sexual withdrawal and promises of great sex were like his promise to marry her at some future date. She may have felt disconnected and the withdrawal was a reaction to his hesitation with whether he wanted to marry her. She may have stuffed her feelings where she should have expressed them verbally and not symbolically. She should have been explicite and tell him that she felt unhappy with his hesitation that she did not feel connected enough to have sex with him.

That would have been fairer to him and her. If he knew that, he may have decided to end the relationship and wait till he was ready to marry before entering a-committed relationship instead of getting to a committed relationship before he was ready. Thus released, she could have gone on to a man who was ready to commit. They were unwise not to have discussed when they wanted to have kids and what they would do during their childless years before they married.

They seem wholly incompatible to me. They both made mistakes. He has his agenda to which he is entitled and she has hers. If they matched , that would be good. But it appears they don't. So you are left with a woman who is unhappy with what she has gotten herself into and a man who is unhappy because he wants sex.

So what do they do short of divorce and finding people with more compatible goals in life. I suppose you can ask what made them fall in love in the first place and can they find it and reconnect. Was the passion so strong that they went ahead even with different agendas. Does not seem that way, sounds like a tepid relationship full of intellectual decisions based on logic which is fine. She may never have felt passionate enough to weather their disparate agendas.

You can say till your blue in the face that she should have sex with him but that never made any women before now, you can tell him to leave her and that will solve the problem. Or you can ask him to change the way he is making decisions so that he maintains the connection. He can make sure that it is clear that his decisions are made out of love for her and wants a stable long term marriage with her. Her feelings needs to be acknowledged.

This is basic human relationship stuff. Its between a man and woman but it still follows the basics. He is the one that needs to do the work because he has more of what he wants than she - he can afford to be generous if he wants. It is not about sex so if he starts there I don't think he will get sex. The disconnect will continue until one of them throws up their hands. Don't be so sure it will be him. 70% of divorces are initiated by women.

Maybe she will respond in kind. It takes just one person to change. He can let her know that he understands what it means to her to have a child and wants that too. He can discuss that he wants to enjoy time with her alone discovering the would before they have kids. He said he wants to have fun before kids, that sounds like his agenda and no attempt to acknowledge that she will be with him.
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mmjj

I know about the resentment your wife might be feeling. I am similar to your wife. I have a schedule of when I want to get married and have children. By "schedule" I mean what I want to accomplish and where I want to be at at certain times in my life. I do like to have a plan, I do not just go through life without at least thinking about where I want to be in 1, 2, 5 yrs from now.

Quick background on me is I am soon to be 30, engaged since March, and have found the person I want to marry and have a family with. I always wanted to get married by the time I turned 30 and have kids soon after. After we got engaged I went about trying to plan a wedding and our life together for a month until he told me until things improve in our relationship we would not be getting married. I was very disappointed and hurt because I thought we would be getting married and he was messing up my schedule.

Our sex life has been an issue for awhile, ever since I went on birth control and over time things got worse. He thought things would improve after we got engaged but it didn't just flip a switch and make me want to have sex. Sex is emotional for women. With the birth control lowering my sex drive and then the disappointment and resentment for him not wanting to get married I did not have that emotional connection needed to want to have sex with him.

I don't think your wife is purposely withholding sex to punish you. It is more subconscious because she is feeling hurt and has emotionally detached from you because she doesn't want to feel the hurt anymore.

Do not have children until your relationship has improved. A child isn't going to improve her emotional connection to you.

Even though you are helping around the house, being very nice and everything it isn't going to make her want to have sex with you. Something needs to change in her. Every time my bf wanted to talk about our "sex issue" I would be very upset, withdrawn, make excuses, defensive, and just not want to talk about it. I don't know if that is how your wife is. It doesn't help to talk about the "sex". You need to talk to her about why she isn't emotionally connected to you anymore. If that connection improves so will the sex. It won't happen overnight but will slowly improve.

From the lack of sex you are probably acting very grumpy and get upset over small things and every time you are rejected for sex. That isn't going to help the situation either. Nobody wants to have sex with someone that is unhappy and pouts whenever they are denied sex.

I think you need to have a serious conversation with her about how you are feeling and where you think your relationship is headed. Just don't make it all about sex and how you do so much for her and she does nothing for you. You are asking for an argument. She may not have the answers for all your questions but at least give her something to think about and in time she may.

Scannerguard

I think the forum is may be correct to tie this to having children. . .I think they may be on to something here.

I have learned that having kids on a schedule is something as biological to women as much as sex is biological to men.

YOu can't help your urges, right, CupOJoe? Well, to a certain extent, neither can she. I know it doesn't make logical sense to a male - what? She has a desire to reproduce but not have sex? How can that be?

Well, I have a childless 43 year old male friend who is "there" right now - dying to have children he can call his own. He often says he is jealous of what I have. He's actually considering a surrogate at this point. So, perhaps the urge is universal but just delayed.

I know the forum has chastized me for saying this (because they don't understand the reasoning behind what I am saying) but in a lot of ways, this is why I feel a 40 year old man is a match for a 25 year old woman.

Honestly, what 25 year old guy is ready and capable of handling a child in this day and age? I know I WASN'T ready at 25. I barely feel I am keeping it together now. But I am ready for it emotionally now at 43. Sure, throw another kid in the mix, I say now. . .I'm in the poorhouse anyway, lol.

You, at age what, 28(?), are rightfully thinking of:

1. Lost nights sleep
2. Cranky baby/toddler
3. Cranky wife
3a. Cranky wife with no sex to boot
4. $250,000 to raise the child
5. $150,000 to educate the child
6. You can kiss golfing on the weekends goodbye
7. You had better trade that sports car in for a minivan
8. Yes, you have to walk around with a diaper bag with duckies on it because your wife tells you to.

You know what's she's thinking?

1. Awwwww. Golly! Aren't babies so cute? (lol)

THAT is only where her head is. Oh yeah, she may talk about the practicalities, but in my experience, that is NOT where her head is at. Remember, most girls play with baby dolls from about what? Age 3? Yeah, my 3 year old son plays with kitchen sets (all my boys did) but I didn't see any of them want to play with baby dolls. That's how engrained this is.

We can flip this on you by the way with sex:

She's thinking:

1. What if I get pregnant?
2. What if I get pregnant?

You're thinking:

1. I gotta have sex now or I'll go crazy.

In reference to the above, the women here have often assumed I mean that women older than 25 aren't attractive or something. . .no. . .that is not what I meant at all.

Do you see the point I am trying to make to you, over a beer here in the forum, dude?

Try to open up a thoughtful dialogue on this and get back to us. I am curious as hell to see where it goes.

As far as my tag-a-long question. . .okay, assuming that mostly they are on the same page with having kids. . .how long is he morally obligated to diagnose this? I'd like to pin the forum to a number.

__________________
And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.

CupOJoe

mmjj it definitely helps to hear an objective viewpoint from a woman that is feeling similar to my wife.

Catherine, I think you make many good points and much of your analysis is accurate, but what you present seems very idealistic. I don't know how many couples in the world are compatible, attracted to each other, AND share all the same goals and timeline. Even if my wife and I had recognized our incompatibilities sooner and pursued separate relationships with people more on our own schedules, I feel that would not have guaranteed smooth sailing for each of us. Also, I don't think that "a committed relationship" automatically means marriage. I was in a very committed relationship and reassured her of that often and about when we would get married. I went YEARS without sex after the "pregnancy scares" to show her my commitment to her and her feelings, when many men would have left. Don't misunderstand my words, I don't resent her for this and I'm not looking for a prize for it, but to say that just because I gave her a different timetable for marriage means I was not extremely committed is silly.

Scannerguard, you are pretty spot on with your points about both what I'm thinking and what she's thinking lol. I do understand that she has these innate urges and I am trying to be sympathetic toward them. I may get heat for this as well, but I can honestly see your point about the 40/25 match and I agree. I will definitely open a thoughful dialogue with my wife, and will keep the forum updated to hopefully help future people reading this. My conversation will have to wait until next week though since we are going away for a wedding over the weekend and that hardly seems like the right time or place to bring this up.

To keep the discussion going in the meantime, I offer this food for thought:

Since many people say I need to put myself in her shoes, pretend this situation was reversed. Lets say it was me who wanted kids right now, but my wife was very career-driven and wanted to wait 2 years to further her career and travel some more. She said she understood my desire to have kids but it is also important to her than we can compromise on this. This led to resentment on my part and an emotional disconnect which led to me not wanting to have sex with her. Say I came to this forum and posted about my problem saying I am unhappy about her hestitation and don't feel connected enough to have sex with her. Some may disagree, but I feel that I would STILL be the one to take the brunt of the blame in the responses and that people would jump on me for not respecting her choices, goals, and timeline! It is a double-edged sword and I would get stabbed either way.

Scannerguard

CupOJoe:

Oh, no. . .it may seem that way (and maybe some forum posters are doing this), but we are not laying this problem at your feet and excusing your wife.

That's just it - there can be 1000 excuses of why not to have sex for a woman. Ususally for a man, there is about 3:

1. Can't get it up.
2. Just had sex an hour ago (really, that's a repeat of 1)
3. Low T
4. Mother just died (well, men could still probably do it )

But I think we are trying to do this in a spirit of helping you, not to assign blame to anyone- to give you a correct "diagnosis." We all just want to see you happy and fulfilled. It's also why I am trying to run a parallel topic of how long does a marriage have to be sexless and how long do you have to fix it before it becomes invalid? I can't seem to get a straight answer on that, or even an estimate. . .it should probably be a separate topic.

Your thread alone hasn't inspired me to ask that question - it's the cumulation of threads.

Yeah, I get what you are complaining about. . ."Reproductive Decisions" usually seem to rest in the province of being female. Well, that's because they carry the baby, nurse the baby, mother the baby, all pretty much more difficult than fathering the baby.

So, yes, there is probably bias there. . .if a female says, "I wanna wait."

Guess what? You're waiting. lol.

Just like the basement is the male province. So back off, women! lol.

But you have to realize. . .tick, tock, tick, tock, the biological clock. Women don't have a lot of time to mess around on this. "Advanced Maternal Age" is what? 35? (which I think is ridiculous but nonetheless it is).

You can make a baby at 55 years old. She can't.

We try to seperate it as much as we can, don't we? Birth control? But in the end, sex and reproduction are irreversibly tied to each other, at the hip, pun intended.

__________________
And maybe I seem a bit confused. . .but maybe, I got you pegged! Ha! Don't know what to do about those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. . .they're posting again. Scannerguard has left the building.