Is Sex The "Bottom Line"? - Page 10 - Talk About Marriage
Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

User Tag List

 2760Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #136 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:19 PM
Member
 
norajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,378
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesTKirk View Post
If all it is (or primarily is) duty sex, then I agree. I was assuming it was an otherwise healthy, non-sexually dysfunctional relationship where there are otherwise no problems. And a problem-free marriage doesn't mean sexual harmony either, which is where so called duty sex sometimes comes in and that's what I was talking about.

When I'm talking about duty sex, I'm referring to when one is up for it, the other is not because they are tired or just not feeling horny, but they sack up and get with the program. In some cases it may because of an ongoing mismatch in frequency desire. That's not what I'm referring to either but I don't think that's disgusting. I want to make my spouse happy and I don't think the act is at least a little bit enjoyable.
If you're having duty sex because there are problems, then that's a whole different issue.

Example: "I'm not up for it. I'm tired. But OK let's do it and get it over with." That means he/she wasn't really wanting sex, but I'll do it now because I know you want it. Not because there is a problem and you aren't getting along. 95% of the time you're having sex because you BOTH want it.
The way I see it, if we're having sex 95% of the time because we both want it, that other 5% when one of us doesn't want it is only 5% and the "wanter" can - and should - wait until both want it. No passion, no desire, no point. Otherwise, that 5% will turn into 10%, 15%, and eventually, one of us would walk away because we wouldn't want that kind of crappy, one-sided sex.

Sex is not my job, nor his. It is not my duty, nor his. It is not something I do for him. Sex is something we have because we want to. It's for "us."

.
norajane is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #137 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:21 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 760
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesTKirk View Post
I wasn't talking about post-menopause and menopause in and of itself can change desire, often higher based on my anecdotal observation. You have more sex now which seems to reinforce that statement, but that may have more to do with lack birth control than anything else. Also, if you had kids they're probably gone now and not around, and kids are a major downer when it comes to romantic time.
I concede that it's impossible to generalize as there are many factors. I just see a lot more women complain about sudden loss or massive increase of desire than men do, especially after childbirth. I see women practically begging for a solution. Perhaps I'm just never seeing the men's stories.
Take Vega as an example of how many phases she'd gone through and is now No-D.

So agreed. False.
Quote:
Without the hormones telling them it's time to have sex they simply forget that sex is important.
Not disagreeing in general with your comments. I was merely pointing out that it is not helpful to make the type of sweeping statements you did and word it as fact when it isn't. One of the biggest issues I see here the perpetuation of misinformation. The people sit back and say "yeah my spouse was like that, must be standard fe/male behaviour", no one learns or grows when this happens.

I will again state that for me one of the drivers is my mind when it comes to being HD. So that makes it easier for the other issues you have mentioned to not greatly impact our sex life here. We have 5 part time teenagers at home and will soon be having a 6th move in. Life is insanely busy and amazing.

You may well not be seeing the men's stories but they are out there. TAM itself is littered with sadness from women who's husbands are not meeting their sexual needs. I belong to two private forums that are about this very issue and trust me it is not so rare for men to be the lower drive. I learned this the hard way but understand that my ex is not representative of all men.

Again I am not looking to have a go but I do think it is incredibly important that we stop with the misinformation and making this an issue based on gender.

Last edited by MrsHolland; 06-22-2016 at 03:30 PM.
MrsHolland is online now  
post #138 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:32 PM
Member
 
Holdingontoit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the woods
Posts: 1,317
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
I think this is a place where, if we defined our terms carefully, most of the disagreement would go away.
I don't think so. Some people feel it is OK to occasionally "take one for the team". Maybe it ends up being good for both. Maybe it is more one-sided. But as long as it is only occasional many are willing to be generous and "be there" for their spouse out of love.

Other people feel it is never appropriate to ask or be asked to "take one for the team". They feel that the "in the mood" spouse should always wait for the not in the mood spouse to get in the mood. Many in this camp feel that taking one for the team almost always results in terrible sex and so the couple should wait for both to be in the mood so the sex can be great. Others seem to find unwanted sex so incredibly painful, violative and insulting that they can't imagine why the "in the mood" spouse could even ask for such a thing.

I don't think anything close to "all people" agree that it is a good idea to "take one for the team" even occasionally. Even if it is phrased as "being generous toward one's partner".

I think part of this is based on each person's experience of being asked to engage in sex when they are not in the mood. Some find it no big deal. Some have primarily responsive desire and find they often enjoy sex even when they weren't in the mood to have it. And some find it so intensely objectionable that they can't tolerate remaining in a relationship with someone who would dare to ask for such a thing.

I don't think the entire problem is about definitions and communications. I think in many cases the problem is that the low desire spouse finds engaging in undesired sex so awful that they simply do not have it within themselves to consent in those circumstances even if they love their partner and find them very attractive. And sometimes people don't discover this about themselves until they are years into a relationship with someone they love and find attractive.

When you can see it coming, duck!
Holdingontoit is offline  
post #139 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:35 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,404
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Some people need a good sex life to be happy, some do not. I do not know if this is innate or learned, but it is not easy to change.

Some people enjoy sex in general. To them doing something sexual for their partner, even if they are not in the mood themselves, is perfectly OK and even fun. Others find sex unpleasant or degrading if they are not themselves in the mood.

Some people are very generous lovers, they enjoy their partner's pleasure. Others only enjoy sex for their own pleasure, and do things for their partners just to be "fair"

Some of these personality traits are compatible for couples, some are not.

People can not change who they are, but they can change who they are with.
uhtred is offline  
post #140 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,643
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyRing View Post
I think it comes down to biology. In my younger days, my drive was strong, almost frantic. Of course, I wanted feelings to go along with it, but I was unhappy when I wasn't in a relationship, not just for lack of sex, but for lack of affection as well. And when I WAS in a relationship, the sex was often and very passionate.
My drive was pretty strong when I was younger, too. But I new that I could satisfy the 'urge' myself and I wasn't unhappy if I wasn't in a relationship.

Quote:
Now that I am engaged and we are both in our 60's, sex is on our "nice to have" list. Yes, we enjoy intimacy on a regular basis, but it is not the focus of our relationship. And we are both extremely happy. The focus of our relationship is affection and companionship. Although we don't have sex every time we get together, there is always plenty of hugging, kissing, hand holding, cuddling, sweet talk and pet names.
LOL! Sounds like I was in my 60's before I was in my 30's!

Quote:
Since sex is a function of pro-creation, I am not at all surprised that at my age, our relationship is less sexual. I am well past my child bearing years. When we are intimate, it is more about comfort and affection than raging hormones screaming to be released.
Exactly. But after reading a lot of dating profiles, I see that MOST of the single men in their 50's, 60's and beyond are looking for "just sex" and NOT the rest of the relationship.

Quote:
So while I do think it is normal for raging sex drives to mellow out over the years, I think the need for non-sexual affectionate touch last for a lifetime. Even intensifies as we get older. I remember when I would visit my late mother in her elder care facilities, all the other residents seemed to want nothing more than a hand to hold
When I was with my exb/f (the one who cheated on me, bringing me to TAM), I once told him that he was VERY affectionate inside of the bedroom. But outside of the bedroom, there was very little affection. I mean, I pretty much had to ask for permission to get a hug from him. Holding hands or cuddling on the sofa was non-existent. The only time I would get a kiss from him was if he was leaving the house to be gone for the day, which happened maybe a few times per month. It's like whatever 'connection' we had inside of the bedroom vanished as soon as his foot crossed the threshold. We had a lot of intellectual conversations and 'fun' together and we rarely fought.

I realized that if I had to choose, I'd rather have LOTS of affection and a little sex rather than LOTS of sex and little to non-existent affection. Of course, I'd REALLY rather have a good balance of BOTH.

I wonder if THAT exists...
Vega is offline  
post #141 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:39 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 10,435
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Nora,
I hope your body is more cooperative than M2's. It will make life easier for both of you.

And I hope - whatever happens - you two stay overall synchronized. Sex is obviously only part of that.

At some point it's likely you will make a painful discovery which is quite simply this. The relationship can overall be good, and the sexual part of it can be difficult.

Another unsexy word. Difficult.

I do know that a couple we are good friends with - is dealing with this. The H just decided unilaterally that he was done with that part of the marriage. It's been very hard on his wife - she is attractive and fit - and has no idea WTF happened.





Quote:
Originally Posted by norajane View Post
The way I see it, if we're having sex 95% of the time because we both want it, that other 5% when one of us doesn't want it is only 5% and the "wanter" can - and should - wait until both want it. No passion, no desire, no point. Otherwise, that 5% will turn into 10%, 15%, and eventually, one of us would walk away because we wouldn't want that kind of crappy, one-sided sex.

Sex is not my job, nor his. It is not my duty, nor his. It is not something I do for him. Sex is something we have because we want to. It's for "us."
MEM2020 is online now  
post #142 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:41 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 137
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
I think this is a place where, if we defined our terms carefully, most of the disagreement would go away.

I would hope that everyone could agree that if sex only occurred when both partners spontaneously decided that they were in the mood, there was plenty of time, no work stress, no body image problems, no kids around, there wouldn't be much sex.

Almost everyone (usually a women) who has a problem with the concept of "duty sex" admits that there have been times when they weren't really in the mood, they went along anyway, had a positive experience and have no problems with doing so from time to time. This is usually done because they love their partner and care about their needs, desires and happiness. They also often recognize that a healthy sex life improves the entire relationship. Let's call that "giving responsive desire a chance to show itself".

Almost nobody thinks that people should be compelled to have sex on a regular basis with someone to whom they are not attracted to whom they are not emotionally connected because they "owe" it to their partner. Let's call that "duty sex".

And for those people (mostly men) who insist that their partner show every bit of spontaneous raw desire for them as they do every time; well, I think they're bound to be disappointed.
I agree on definition
I'm thinking of duty sex in terms of doing it with someone you want to have sex with but at a time you don't desire it, not reluctantly having sex with someone because you don't want to.
JamesTKirk is offline  
post #143 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:42 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 10,435
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

The three sexually strained marriages I know of - it is the man in all 3 who is the low drive or no drive.

And all three have very attractive wives. Well one is now an attractive ex wife.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post
Not disagreeing in general with your comments. I was merely pointing out that it is not helpful to make the type of sweeping statements you did and word it as fact when it isn't. One of the biggest issues I see here the perpetuation of misinformation. The people sit back and say "yeah my spouse was like that, must be standard fe/male behaviour", no one learns or grows when this happens.

I will again state that for me one of the drivers is my mind when it comes to being HD. So that makes it easier for the other issues you have mentioned to not greatly impact our sex life here. We have 5 part time teenagers at home and will soon be having a 6th move in. Life is insanely busy and amazing.

You may well not be seeing the men's stories but they are out there. TAM itself is littered with sadness from women who's husbands are not meeting their sexual needs. I belong to two private forums that are about this very issue and trust me it is not so rare for men to be the lower drive. I learned this the hard way but understand that my ex is not representative of all men.

Again I am not looking to have a go but I do think it is incredibly important that we stop with the misinformation and making this an issue based on gender.
MEM2020 is online now  
post #144 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:45 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,422
A missing dynamic in this discussion is the issue of spontaneous versus responsive desire.

Left alone I doubt my wife would ever think of having sex and will never initiate. Thanks to TAM and a sex therapist I no longer see those facts as rejection - it's just her nature.

So there really isn't any possibility of duty sex as some of you are taking it. There is no 50% this or that - there is no "if i have sex 50% of the time when I don't want it...".

It's a hard thing to wrap your head around if you don't only have responsive desire.

In fact the opposite is true - GOOD sex only happens if I initiate when she doesn't want to - which is always.

Now she'd be offended by this stark description - life is nuance after all - and she would say she loves having sex. It just doesn't start the same way for her.

Very interesting viewpoints though. But the dry vagina comment is kind of stuck in my mind so may not so much of that
TheTruthHurts is offline  
post #145 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:46 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,941
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by norajane View Post
The way I see it, if we're having sex 95% of the time because we both want it, that other 5% when one of us doesn't want it is only 5% and the "wanter" can - and should - wait until both want it. No passion, no desire, no point. Otherwise, that 5% will turn into 10%, 15%, and eventually, one of us would walk away because we wouldn't want that kind of crappy, one-sided sex.

Sex is not my job, nor his. It is not my duty, nor his. It is not something I do for him. Sex is something we have because we want to. It's for "us."
I think this is the most honest view

but to be really consistent, you need to admit that this extends to EVERYTHING in the relationship

basically, you both only do stuff you want to do when you each want to.

if you don't want to do it, you don't

if the other person doesn't want to, you don't blame them for that, because you're doing the same thing

to the extent your wants overlap enough, that's where your relationship is

another way of looking at this is there really is no relationship, just two people each living a life where there happens to be overlap

if you extend this out logically and grow uncomfortable with these types of implications, then that may reveal that you are not being internally consistent
Anon1111 is offline  
post #146 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,422
@anon1111 to be internally consistent wouldn't your name have to be anon0000?
Or NullBlank or NullZLS or AnonNobody or Someone1111111
TheTruthHurts is offline  
post #147 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:51 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 760
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

I would like to add this to the discussion..........

IMHO too much emphasis is put on hormones being the big driver in desire, the mind is a more important contributor to drive.

Yes I would be considered very HD based on the previous definition given in this thread but it is not and never been solely based on hormones. I never had an urge to procreate, I sailed through menopause and have lived in a past sexless marriage where I remained faithful. I enjoy good sex, sex simply for the sake of it without any huge hormonal push and I know many women like this.

We have had various men here state that for them, sex later in life is more about connection and emotional fulfillment. We had a thread about why men desire sex with their wives, for emotional connection and to show love, Vega for one argued this but I fully believe that men can and do have sex for emotional connection. Which bring me to the most important factor, the lesson learnt the hard way, men with a high EQ are the prize catches.

Men can and do have sex even with lower T. Women can and do have sex post menopause. They are like this because the driver in desire is their brain.
MrsHolland is online now  
post #148 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:53 PM
Member
 
norajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,378
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
Nora,
I hope your body is more cooperative than M2's. It will make life easier for both of you.

And I hope - whatever happens - you two stay overall synchronized. Sex is obviously only part of that.

At some point it's likely you will make a painful discovery which is quite simply this. The relationship can overall be good, and the sexual part of it can be difficult.

Another unsexy word. Difficult.

I do know that a couple we are good friends with - is dealing with this. The H just decided unilaterally that he was done with that part of the marriage. It's been very hard on his wife - she is attractive and fit - and has no idea WTF happened.
After 30 years and having gone through hell and back together, no surprises between us, trust me. We know exactly what we're getting into, lol. My 48 year old body is not a surprise to me, either. Barring any illnesses or just plain getting old, we know what our sex life is about and what it means to us.

.
norajane is offline  
post #149 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:55 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 10,435
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Wazza,

This is the 'hot iron' question. People either shy away from it or play the unconditional vow card. Meaning that the vow to forsake is unconditional.

I have yet to see anyone try to seriously address this contradiction which looks like this:
- My desire is low - so I'm gonna pretend sex isn't that important
While loudly asserting
- If you do that unimportant thing with anyone else, I'm divorcing you and telling everyone what a bad person you are







Quote:
Originally Posted by Wazza View Post
Vega, I'm interested in your take on a question that has been acknowledged in this thread.

If you were in a relationship, and your significant other felt they needed sex but you didn't, would it be a good thing or a bad thing if they just met that need elsewhere? What is your answer to that question, and what are your reasons for your answer, whatever it might be?
MEM2020 is online now  
post #150 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:55 PM
Member
 
norajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,378
Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTruthHurts View Post
A missing dynamic in this discussion is the issue of spontaneous versus responsive desire.

Left alone I doubt my wife would ever think of having sex and will never initiate. Thanks to TAM and a sex therapist I no longer see those facts as rejection - it's just her nature.

So there really isn't any possibility of duty sex as some of you are taking it. There is no 50% this or that - there is no "if i have sex 50% of the time when I don't want it...".

It's a hard thing to wrap your head around if you don't only have responsive desire.

In fact the opposite is true - GOOD sex only happens if I initiate when she doesn't want to - which is always.

Now she'd be offended by this stark description - life is nuance after all - and she would say she loves having sex. It just doesn't start the same way for her.

Very interesting viewpoints though. But the dry vagina comment is kind of stuck in my mind so may not so much of that
Some people get around responsive desire by not limiting "sexy" to the bedroom when it's "time" to have sex. Flirting, affection, teasing, being playful, dating your spouse - that keeps the home fires burning so you aren't starting from zero each time.

.
norajane is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Newly married, wife horny but doesn't want to have sex with me😩help Jordan88 New Member Forum - Introduce Yourself! 28 04-21-2016 09:02 AM
Sex issues with wife and I found out she attended a blow job party rezer Coping with Infidelity 0 01-14-2016 01:13 AM
What to do? Ray83 Sex in Marriage 32 12-31-2015 09:44 AM
Sex life after porn and lies loveroflove Sex in Marriage 19 12-16-2015 06:52 PM
Who initiates Sex? MAJDEATH Sex in Marriage 50 11-30-2015 08:32 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome