Is Sex The "Bottom Line"? - Page 4 - Talk About Marriage
Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

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post #46 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 05:10 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
You're right. We don't have sex as 'friends', room mates, parent/child, etc.

But we DO have a TON of sex outside of marriage via casual sex, friends with benefits, one night stands, living together, affairs, etc.

I could see your point IF we never had sex at any other time BESIDES marriage. But because the majority of adults DO have sex OUTSIDE of marriage, well...
The difference is that once in a monogamous marriage, your spouse is supposed to be your sole sex partner. If my wife and I stop having sex, I can't just go to a new friend and have sex with them without getting divorced or having an affair.
If you're in a FWB or one night stand, you just move on to the next person that is willing to have sex with you.
So then you either have a sexless marriage or you have a marriage with sex.

So I would argue that you enter into a marriage agreeing to be that partner's sole sex partner and it's your responsibility to hold that up.

The problem is when there is a sex in a marriage and it stops. There can be many reasons, but I argue that if it stops completely it's because of a larger problem in the marriage which is the cause of the divorce. The lack of sex is a symptom of that problem.
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post #47 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 05:28 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by zookeeper View Post
I'd say generosity and lack thereof is a much bigger issue in relationships than any particular individual need. Why exactly does this come up around sex so specifically? Why do some people have so much difficulty engaging in sex with the person they claim to love, simply because they don't "desire" it? This presumes that LD does not equal physical pain or mental trauma that makes sex a horrific experience. I read LD to simply mean ambivalence toward sex. Why is it so objectionable to have sex with someone you love? I have had sex with my wife plenty of times when I was tired, stressed out and would rather have gone to bed. It wasn't exactly fireworks for me, but it wasn't water boarding either. If she is in the mood and I am simply dog tired, I'll give her oral sex. She goes to bed with a smile on her face and I'm happy for it. Sometimes the roles are reversed. Neither of us finds it particularly oppressive or unjust.

Why does a partner's need for sex (which in most cases was well known early in the relationship) seem to trigger such anxiety, resentment and even righteous indignation for some people?
I agree. I have never been able to wrap my mind around what could be so torturous about having sex with a person you love and find attractive outside of a medical issue or some life situation that would make the answer obvious. I could never understand just reaching a point that sex is no longer interesting with someone you love.

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post #48 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 05:39 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by badsanta View Post
It was my belief in college that the primary motivation for women to have sex was "to please their partner." I remember overhearing this woman say this to her female friends at a gathering of fellow church members, "men will never understand our desire to simply please them!" And she said that as if us men will never understand the plight of being a woman. While overhearing this, my heart sank. I thought to myself these women do not understand men's desire to "share" our joy, and that perhaps they only see our happiness as an obligation.

When I met my wife, we shared our intimacy. I've never looked elsewhere!

Badsanta
I think that's a strong over generalization. That implies that their having sex out of duty just to please the man as opposed to genuinely meeting their sexual needs. Women may have sex to please the man but they're also doing it because they want to have sex. It's often the man's desire that instigates it, though because it's both a gender role and because men tend to have a constant strong sex drive at that age.

I've met plenty of women that just wanted sex, used guys for sex, or had multiple partners. Maybe the motivation wasn't purely sex and it was to satisfy some psychological need to be wanted but same can be said for men. It doesn't matter. Many women of college age just have sex, period. Younger women just like to have sex more and it's quite probably a combination of a biological hormonal driver as well as just sewing their oats. There is this misconception that women are not sexually driven because our society considers them sl*ts if they admit it and they feel shame if they admit it to themselves. I can say in some of my relationships, the woman's motivation for sex was as much because they just wanted to have sex with pleasing me be the secondary priority. I've had girls/women cheat on me just to have sex with other guys and I think it had nothing to do with pleasing the guy.

My problem with this whole thread is the implication that sex isn't as important to women as it is for men.

The problem is that women's sex drive changes whereas men tend to remain constant unless they become unhealthy. A woman's body desires sex for procreation and as they get older that need is reduced. Without the hormones telling them it's time to have sex they simply forget that sex is important.


Give Vega a little testosterone and watch her go crazy if she can't have sex. Then maybe her perception of the importance of sex will change.

Like eating, drinking, breathing, and going to the bathroom, sex is something we just do. When we get married and agree to a monogamous relationship. When one of those two people doesn't do it (or rarely does it) then the other is left without, or forced to leave. That's why it's the end all be all deal breaker.
Also, as I previously said, the reduction of sex in the marriage is often an indicator of something else going wrong which is the actual reason the divorce happens.
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post #49 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by JamesTKirk View Post
The difference is that once in a monogamous marriage, your spouse is supposed to be your sole sex partner. If my wife and I stop having sex, I can't just go to a new friend and have sex with them without getting divorced or having an affair.
If you're in a FWB or one night stand, you just move on to the next person that is willing to have sex with you.
So then you either have a sexless marriage or you have a marriage with sex.

So I would argue that you enter into a marriage agreeing to be that partner's sole sex partner and it's your responsibility to hold that up.

The problem is when there is a sex in a marriage and it stops. There can be many reasons, but I argue that if it stops completely it's because of a larger problem in the marriage which is the cause of the divorce. The lack of sex is a symptom of that problem.
I am not disputing that SOME sex in of itself belongs in marriage.

But how much or how little before sparks start to fly?
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post #50 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 05:50 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
I am not disputing that SOME sex in of itself belongs in marriage.

But how much or how little before sparks start to fly?
I guess when you have to ask your spouse why they're so seldom interested in you, you've got a problem. Men generally have a peak buildup of testosterone/dopamine urges within 10-14 days (not to mention fluid buildup down there that feels good to release. Sorry to go TMI.) and women at least once a month I think roughly 1-4 times a month is a good biological level of necessity.
When people are single they go without because they have to and that's why they turn to porn and/or masturbation.

It has nothing to do with marriage, it has to do with biology and wanting sex and once you're in a marriage, you're that persons sole sex partner.

Take away the sex and just have the love, friendship, shared financial responsibility, and cohabitation, and you have at least one unhappy sexually frustrated person.
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post #51 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 05:52 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Charlie,

I want to add a bit to your post below. I remember when M2 told me the same. Menopause - sex drive gone missing.

She just said it real matter of fact. Sort of like you might say: I have high blood pressure.

I remember looking at her thinking - wow - I have this super cool wife who just says what's what without blinking, or flinching or sugar coating it.

It's also true - I wasn't anxious - I knew we'd both make a good faith effort to work around it. And we have.

I thanked her for telling me. Meant it.



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On topic, my wife admitted menopause zapped her drive. We still had sex, maybe I wanted a bit more but close enough. And it was still good. But the relationship suffered. We both knew it was important to us, but it was work to have sex. Took some time to figure out but not only did it lower her drive, more importantly in changed it and I needed to change my approach. (She needed to learn that when I said sex didn't need to be PiV I meant it, "naked time" works.)
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post #52 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by JamesTKirk View Post

So I would argue that you enter into a marriage agreeing to be that partner's sole sex partner and it's your responsibility to hold that up.

The problem is when there is a sex in a marriage and it stops. There can be many reasons, but I argue that if it stops completely it's because of a larger problem in the marriage which is the cause of the divorce. The lack of sex is a symptom of that problem.
Hmmm.

I wonder how many couples actually talk about how much sex and how often they expect it BEFORE they marry.

And yes, I definitely agree that the cessation of sex is a symptom of a larger problem.

But why do we automatically assume that the LD is pulling a 'bait-n-switch'? It recently occurred to me that at least SOME LD's may actually have NO IDEA how much sex they're content with because they may have never had an LTR before. If asked, they may toss out "3-5 times a week" because they've "heard" that's how much they're "supposed" to do it.

Becoming an LD may be as much of a shock to the LD than to the HD.
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post #53 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by JamesTKirk View Post
Men generally have a peak buildup of testosterone/dopamine urges within 10-14 days (not to mention fluid buildup down there that feels good to release. Sorry to go TMI.) and women at least once a month I think roughly 1-4 times a month is a good biological level of necessity.
When people are single they go without because they have to and that's why they turn to porn and/or masturbation.

.
I'm glad you brought this up, JTK. I understand that fluid can build up for men 'down there'. But here's the rub: Sex with a partner isn't necessary to release that fluid! Like you said, men can masturbate OR, they can do nothing and simply allow the semen to naturally 'emit' (nocturnal emissions).

I noticed in my own biology that the less I masturbate, the less I feel the 'urge' to do so. I've heard it's the same for the majority of both men and women.

It makes me wonder...If we removed all of this 'stimulation', would an HD TRULY be an HD?
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post #54 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:08 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Hmmm.

I wonder how many couples actually talk about how much sex and how often they expect it BEFORE they marry.

And yes, I definitely agree that the cessation of sex is a symptom of a larger problem.

But why do we automatically assume that the LD is pulling a 'bait-n-switch'? It recently occurred to me that at least SOME LD's may actually have NO IDEA how much sex they're content with because they may have never had an LTR before. If asked, they may toss out "3-5 times a week" because they've "heard" that's how much they're "supposed" to do it.

Becoming an LD may be as much of a shock to the LD than to the HD.
My ex and I sure didn't. And we should have. He wasn't (seemingly) HD when we were dating, and then living together. We both seemed to be sort of MD, if that's a thing. About once a week was the norm for us, and we both were (seemed) perfectly content with that. He was gone half the time. He'd be tired when he got back from a trip. We'd end up having sex maybe once - occasionally twice - during the time he was home each week. Once our son arrived, that frequency slowed way down. Once every couple of weeks. I was fine with that, and thought he was, too. Even asked him if he was, and he said he was and not to worry.

When he told me he wanted a divorce 25 years later, suddenly he adamantly claimed he wanted it much more often than that, and that he told me that "at least 100 times." Nope. Not even once.

Talk about bait and switch (and then being a masochist for 25 years). I was fine being LD/MD. It's pretty much how I've always been wired. I loved my ex, found him attractive, got along well with him in every other aspect, laughed with him all the time, enjoyed his company. It wasn't a laziness thing - it was a thing where sex with him wasn't fulfilling for me in the emotional sense. I was always fully functional - never once faked it with him in all our years together - never once had to. But he liked role-playing and leather and props and toys - he couldn't just make me feel like a natural woman. It was always this major production. If he'd ever just taken me in his arms and started passionately kissing me, I promise you I'd have never turned him down. I tried that with him a couple of times and got turned down. So I stopped trying.

It wasn't the be all and end all for me, but I would have liked to have bonded with him on a more intimate level. He is just not the bonding type.
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post #55 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:22 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Yes absolutely, sex is the bottom line! Without it, I am depressed and irritable. I'll do almost anything for it.

But sadly, it's like money: it doesn't grow on trees.
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post #56 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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My ex and I sure didn't. And we should have. He wasn't (seemingly) HD when we were dating, and then living together. We both seemed to be sort of MD, if that's a thing. About once a week was the norm for us, and we both were (seemed) perfectly content with that. He was gone half the time. He'd be tired when he got back from a trip. We'd end up having sex maybe once - occasionally twice - during the time he was home each week. Once our son arrived, that frequency slowed way down. Once every couple of weeks. I was fine with that, and thought he was, too. Even asked him if he was, and he said he was and not to worry.

When he told me he wanted a divorce 25 years later, suddenly he adamantly claimed he wanted it much more often than that, and that he told me that "at least 100 times." Nope. Not even once.

Talk about bait and switch (and then being a masochist for 25 years). I was fine being LD/MD. It's pretty much how I've always been wired. I loved my ex, found him attractive, got along well with him in every other aspect, laughed with him all the time, enjoyed his company. It wasn't a laziness thing - it was a thing where sex with him wasn't fulfilling for me in the emotional sense. I was always fully functional - never once faked it with him in all our years together - never once had to. But he liked role-playing and leather and props and toys - he couldn't just make me feel like a natural woman. It was always this major production. If he'd ever just taken me in his arms and started passionately kissing me, I promise you I'd have never turned him down. I tried that with him a couple of times and got turned down. So I stopped trying.

It wasn't the be all and end all for me, but I would have liked to have bonded with him on a more intimate level. He is just not the bonding type.
This is so sad, Nomorebeans. Unfortunately, it happens quite often. I heard something similar, but it after my exh and I divorced. During our marriage we didn't have sex for something like 8 months. At the time, I was working a full time job, a part time job AND going to school full time. We also had young children. He told me he was "fine" with the situation because he knew it was 'temporary'. Unfortunately we divorced before everything calmed down.

We remained friends and talked on the phone at least once a week. At once point he confessed that he WAS upset about it. I asked him why he told me otherwise. And there was the LONGEST moment of silence in history before he said, "I don't know". Well, that doesn't help, lol! But I can't have sympathy for him because he DID have plenty of opportunities to say something so we could work together to figure out what to do.

Oh well...

I've experienced that kind of dishonesty so often in my relationships. Really scares me into being unsure if I'll ever trust again. I USED to be pretty trusting (almost naive). Now, because of the last few relationships where there was MORE dishonesty, I'm really shaken up.

Last edited by Vega; 06-21-2016 at 06:39 PM.
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post #57 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Without it, I am depressed and irritable.
Why?
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post #58 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:38 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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This is so sad, Nomorebeans. Unfortunately, it happens quite often. I heard something similar, but it after my exh and I divorced. During our marriage we didn't have sex for something like 8 months. At the time, I was working a full time job, a part time job AND going to school full time. We also had young children. He told me he was "fine" with the situation because he knew it was 'temporary'. Unfortunately we divorced before everything calmed down.

We remained friends and talked on the phone at least once a week. At once point he confessed that he WAS upset about it. I asked him why he told me otherwise. And there was the LONGEST moment of silence in history before he said, "I don't know". Well, that doesn't help, lol! But I can't have sympathy for him because he DID have plenty of opportunities to say something so we could work together to figure out what to do.

Oh well...

I've experienced that kind of dishonesty so often in my relationships. Really scares me into being unsure if I ever trust again. I USED to be pretty trusting (almost naive). Now, because of the last few relationships where there was MORE dishonesty, I'm really shaken up.
I asked my ex in the early days after finding out about the OW he left me for why he told me otherwise during our marriage, too. And he YELLED (swear to God), "Because I'm non-confrontational!!!"

I wish I could say I was making that up.

I wonder if I'll ever be able to trust another man again, as well.
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post #59 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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I asked my ex in the early days after finding out about the OW he left me for why he told me otherwise during our marriage, too. And he YELLED (swear to God), "Because I'm non-confrontational!!!"

I wish I could say I was making that up.

I wonder if I'll ever be able to trust another man again, as well.
I had a funny feeling there was an OW. Your ex re-wrote history, and I hope you understand that now. Chances are that he told the OW the same thing; that you two "never" had sex and that he "had to beg" for it, and that he "tried talking to you NUMEROUS times", but that you were completely "unreasonable" and/or "uninterested".

It's in the Cheater Handbook, page 172.
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post #60 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 06:54 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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I asked my ex in the early days after finding out about the OW he left me for why he told me otherwise during our marriage, too. And he YELLED (swear to God), "Because I'm non-confrontational!!!"

I wish I could say I was making that up.

I wonder if I'll ever be able to trust another man again, as well.
There's another word for that.

It's often paired w/ "willow".


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