Is Sex The "Bottom Line"? - Page 6 - Talk About Marriage
Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

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post #76 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 08:37 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
Charlie,

BEST thing about M2 - absolutely no difference in behavior pre and post marriage.

The patterned stories here about the stability staircase* - I never would have tolerated that type situation to develop.



* Stability is often the mortal enemy of passion. And one person's hyper stability - is another's emotionally smothered nightmare.
I'm not familiar with the term, do tell.

We can both destabilize when needed, it gets real (passionate), in a good way.



Sigh, my wife gives me the speaking treatment.
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post #77 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 09:06 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by southbound View Post
I agree. I have never been able to wrap my mind around what could be so torturous about having sex with a person you love and find attractive outside of a medical issue or some life situation that would make the answer obvious. I could never understand just reaching a point that sex is no longer interesting with someone you love.
There are lots of reasons. Love does not solve all problems, it's a starting point. It's hard for some people to imagine any reason not to have sex.

It may be difficult for the LD spouse to understand why their HD spouse wants to be loving sexually but not so loving in other areas of the relationship.

Sex is the bottom line and it isn't. If it were the most important thing in the relationship, then the level of peace, harmony and happiness could be measured by the quantity and quality of sex.

If it was unimportant then it's absence wouldn't be a big deal in the marital happiness and satisfaction.

Often for one half of the partnership, sex makes problems fade away but for the other half, sex distracts from resolution of problems. Neither of them are true.

My magic wand would remove shame from sexuality for all! Anon Pink

Last edited by Catherine602; 06-21-2016 at 10:22 PM.
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post #78 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 09:07 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

I wouldn't say sex is the end all, be all. I would say that it is highly important and I wouldn't remain married without regular, good+, sex unless there was a medical reason that DH or I couldn't have sex. And, we've talked about it. If that does happen, we plan to use fingers and/or tongues as well as toys.

We didn't talk about it before we married, but we'd been a couple from January '99 and didn't marry until December '02. By the time we did marry, we knew exactly what we were getting into as far as sex drive....bum-dum-duuuuuummmm...or so we thought!

I saw an increase in my already high drive at about 32-34. And another at about 40.

My DH responded by basically telling me that, as long as we weren't arguing or anything, I could have sex with him on demand. His actual sex drive is basically unknown since he has hit the 40's. He says he doesn't even know how often he wants sex because I initiate so often that he never goes without. He's equated it to a man being fed so regularly that he never feels hunger, but who still enjoys his meals.

I'm trying really hard not to be a selfish prig and only have sex once a day. I didn't pester the 4 days he was giving up a smoking habit and going through withdrawl. Thankfully, I thought to point out that I didn't expect sex because I knew he was feeling cruddy and that it was ok, he's worth waiting for. *chuckle* Later that night, we had amazing sex and I learned (perfected, really) a new trick.

For us, the sex is very important. Other than the physical release and the happy chemical flood, we also use sex for mental and emotional closeness and sharing. We like exploring and experimenting together. It creates an amazing bond.
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post #79 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 09:21 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?
In a sexual relationship it is!

In a sexual relationship sex is essential, in a platonic relationship sex is superfluous.

I've turned down sex when single and not getting any at the time, because I wasn't interested in having sex with whomever wanted to have sex with me. Likewise I have been fine not having sex for weeks through several months while away because of Army service.

Yet when it comes to being in a sexual relationship the sexual part is what makes it a sexual relationship and separates it from being a platonic one.

So whether I am dating, in my experience sex on the 1st or 2nd date was the norm. Being picked up/picking up, meet at a pub/club where you have sex there and or take it home and have at it (there's or yours). In an exclusive relationship, you know just having lots of sex with them. Or Engaged and or married when wanting a more formalised sexual relationship. I have an expectation that sex will be plentiful and mutually desired.

Fortunately thus far, I've mutually enjoyed a smorgasbord of plentiful delight.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
We talk about sex every day. It's the END all, to BE all, for some.

And for others, they couldn't care less.
Talking about sex is a lot more fun that talking about the right shutter speed to capture full prop blur air-to-air for a Beechcraft King Air K-350 or a Supermarine Spitfire (VIII, IX and XVI) in flight. Which incidentally is 1/100 and 1/80 respectively, full prop blur for the Spitfire ground-to-ground running I recommend 1/40 or less, then 1/15 for start up.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
We see it in magazines. Online articles. Scholarly essays and news reports. Women's orgasms aren't "necessary" for procreation. Men's orgasm's aren't "necessary" OUTSIDE of procreation.
When is "necessary" required in order to have fun?

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
We hunt it down. We seek it. And if we don't get it (from someone else), we're "grumpy" and/or "irritable".
Hardly a surprise that people feel frustrated when they don't get what they desire.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
We marry because we have this belief that we'll have wedded conjugal bliss (on OUR terms, of course) well into our 90's. And if we don't "get it" 4-6 times a week, or 3 times a day, we'll become "unhappy", especially with our "selfish" partner.
Since I've never lacked for sex whenever I have wanted it, I have never married to get sex and never would marry to get sex.

As to being selfish, if one's partner no longer desires them sexually, it makes a lot of sense for all parties to end a sexual relationship if it has become a platonic one.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
We marry to get it. We divorce because of the lack or TOO MUCH of it. We even DEMAND it, because we EXPECT it. We're entitled to it because of it's "biological" nature or simply because of our gender.
I've been married twice, in the first instance it was because she got pregnant and I thought it was a good idea to raise our child while married. In the second instance my wife was sick of hiding the fact that we were living together, lest she upset her very Catholic Sicilian mother.

That said since marriages are supposed to be sexual relationships, I wouldn't marry anyone or remain married to anyone sans having sex.

As to entitlement I don't think anyone is entitled to anything, you get what you get! Life isn't fair so one ought to enjoy what they can, and get over what they can't.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Some of us want it because we believe that it's the ULTIMATE expression of our "love" for our partner. Yet, that same person may have NO PROBLEM having sex with people BEFORE his/her partner with NO "feelings" attached.
If people are hypocrites or lack comprehension good luck to them. Absent cheating on a sexually exclusive partner I'm happy to share sex with anyone who I am sexually attracted to who wants to mutually share and enjoy the same. As to no feelings, I don't know about you but I tend to have pleasant feelings when I share something I enjoy with someone.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Some of us see it as "bonding". You know...becoming "one" and all that...Others will see it as merely a physical way of 'releasing' built up sexual tension.
It's simply a tremendous amount of fun that is often mutually viscerally desired.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
It's the "E-ticket" ride in an amusement park. A 'ride' that we want to jump on over and over again. Or, it's the 'hell' that some people feel. And from the ultra-feminist point of view, it's a symbol of man's domination over women.
I'm married to a woman who in our first decade could fairly be considered a radical Feminist (she used to be a leading member of an active Feminist collective and organised plenty of protests and marches. Today albeit less radical she (Ms Not Personal) still identifies as a Feminist and unsurprisingly desires and enjoys lots of sex.

If one is going to jump they may as well be all in!

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Regardless of our attitudes toward it, it seems to be that sex is "It". Forget about the rest of the "relationship." Forget about "until death do us part"...forget about "love", too!
Humans are quite capable of having sex with people they are in love with or aren't in love with. Just as humans are also perfectly capable of loving people they don't have sex with. If you love someone and are not having sex with them you have a platonic relationship. If you don't love someone and are having sex with them you have a sexual relationship.

If a spouse never wants to or seldom wants to have sex with their partner, they should have no expectation or requirement for their spouse to remain sexually exclusive.

I have a great relationship with my wife on many levels, I don't understand why you think sex comes at the expense of all of the rest. Settling for the wrong people is where all of the rest collapses. Great (long term/marital) sexual relationships are a sum of the whole with sex being an essential and critical part (otherwise it wouldn't be a sexual relationship).

Having read your tales of woe, I wouldn't have picked any of the partners you describe. You would do well to not ascribe your experiences to everyone else. My and my wife's experiences aren't like yours. Whenever we have found someone to be poorly we've always let them go and moved on, why settle when you don't have to?

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
The reason why I'm saying all of this, is because I've been sex-less for the past 8 months or so. And, I'm HAPPY! I don't "need" sex in order to be HAPPY. Yet, it seems that so many others put so much weight on sex for their happiness.
I've gone months at a time sans sex and have been perfectly happy as well, it's not news that sex isn't the font of all happiness. I have sex because it's fun not because I think it has some lofty meaning.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Now, don't get me wrong. I've been VERY HD in some of my relationships. But the point is, that I'm not UN happy if I'm not in a relationship getting laid however many times a day. I've also been in relationship where the frequency of sex was very low...

But...

...that didn't make me UN happy!
Okay.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
So tell me...is it REALLY the end all to BE all? And if so,

WHY??????
Since sex is the part that makes a relationship a sexual one, of course sex is the end all to be all in any sexual relationship.
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post #80 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by Personal View Post

Since sex is the part that makes a relationship a sexual one, of course sex is the end all to be all in any sexual relationship.
I really enjoyed your entire post, Personal. But when I read it, I noticed that whenever you mentioned the word "sex", I always thought to myself, "Sex...but how MUCH?"

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against sex in marriage or a relationship. But the "experts" seemed to have informed us that if we have sex less than 10 times a year, we're in a "sexless" relationship.

I can't wrap my head around that. If you're having sex 10 times a year, you're still having sex; so to me, it can't be "sexless". And of course, the LD person is deemed to be "dysfunctional".

Meanwhile, there doesn't seem to be a limit at the opposite end of the spectrum. We can have too little, but not too much? I mean, at what point does it become "too much"? Does it EVER become "too much"?

And I think that may be part of the problem with an LD. No matter how much sex you give the HD, they always seem to want MORE.

Is there a point where the HD says, "Enough!"?
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post #81 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 10:24 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by MJJEAN View Post
I wouldn't say sex is the end all, be all. I would say that it is highly important and I wouldn't remain married without regular, good+, sex unless there was a medical reason that DH or I couldn't have sex. And, we've talked about it. If that does happen, we plan to use fingers and/or tongues as well as toys.

We didn't talk about it before we married, but we'd been a couple from January '99 and didn't marry until December '02. By the time we did marry, we knew exactly what we were getting into as far as sex drive....bum-dum-duuuuuummmm...or so we thought!

I saw an increase in my already high drive at about 32-34. And another at about 40.

My DH responded by basically telling me that, as long as we weren't arguing or anything, I could have sex with him on demand. His actual sex drive is basically unknown since he has hit the 40's. He says he doesn't even know how often he wants sex because I initiate so often that he never goes without. He's equated it to a man being fed so regularly that he never feels hunger, but who still enjoys his meals.

I'm trying really hard not to be a selfish prig and only have sex once a day. I didn't pester the 4 days he was giving up a smoking habit and going through withdrawl. Thankfully, I thought to point out that I didn't expect sex because I knew he was feeling cruddy and that it was ok, he's worth waiting for. *chuckle* Later that night, we had amazing sex and I learned (perfected, really) a new trick.

For us, the sex is very important. Other than the physical release and the happy chemical flood, we also use sex for mental and emotional closeness and sharing. We like exploring and experimenting together. It creates an amazing bond.
All I have running thru my mind while reading the bolded part is Rod Stewart's song "Some guys have all the luck, some guys have all the pain"
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post #82 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by JamesTKirk View Post
My point that someone Vega, a self proclaimed LD person, has no or very infrequent desire for sex. Therefore, she doesn't value sex in a marriage a deal breaker. It's literally an optional thing to her.
It's because she doesn't understand that normal-D or HD person values it highly. If you gave her that desire, I think she'd change her point of view.

My point is that she, or other LD people, may just not get it.
LOL! Right now, I'm a NO Drive person. When in a relationship, I've been both HD and LD. I've gone without sex in a marriage for 5 years. And in one LTR, we had sex 17 times in a 24 hour period (I was 28 at the time).

It's not that I consider sex to be "optional"; I just don't think it's EVERYTHING, which is WHY it isn't a deal-breaker for me.

I DO enjoy sex, but I enjoy quality sex. If I had a choice, I'd rather have good quality sex for 2-3 hours once every two weeks than have mediocre sex lasting less than 15 minutes 5 times a week.

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According to a 2008 survey of sex therapists, sex is “too short” when it lasts one to two minutes. “Adequate” is three to seven minutes, and “desirable” is seven to 13. The range for “too long” went up to 30 minutes. Anything longer, like “more than 40,” will henceforth be known as “too Kanye.”Sep 20, 2015
The "desirable" range is 7-13 minutes. If I was with a partner who was at the high end of this (13 minutes) and we did it every day, I'd be lucky to have ONE orgasm.

Last edited by Vega; 06-21-2016 at 11:20 PM.
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post #83 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 11:50 PM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
You've got this adversarial vibe towards men - which is super visible in most of your threads.

This thread has a subtext which is: Why can't other people (mainly men) be cool like me and be happy without sex?

It's a good thing you are happy being alone, because your mindset is not really suited to a LTR.
Must... resist... urge... to make... analogy... with my wife... 😂😂

I don't know MEM, it's hard to say. Maybe her experience with sex was lousy so she liberated herself from the realities of sex.
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post #84 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 12:00 AM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Maybe her experience with sex was lousy so she liberated herself from the realities of sex.
Maybe it was maybe it wasn't? I can't imagine wanting to keep sharing sex with my wife if I found the experience somewhat wanting.

As it stands in the past I had no qualms about ending two sexual relationships that I didn't enjoy sexually.
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post #85 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 12:44 AM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Charlie,

Many many many posts describe the following sequence.

Sex was good to great until:

- Engagement - at which point it decreased
- Marriage - it decreased further
- First child - it decreased even further
- Last child - it dropped to almost nothing

Inverse relationship between stability and sex.







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Originally Posted by CharlieParker View Post
I'm not familiar with the term, do tell.

We can both destabilize when needed, it gets real (passionate), in a good way.
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post #86 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 01:02 AM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
I really enjoyed your entire post, Personal. But when I read it, I noticed that whenever you mentioned the word "sex", I always thought to myself, "Sex...but how MUCH?"
Thanks, as to how much I figure it's probably as variable as the people involved and how they feel on any given moment?

My wife and I for the past few years have largely been sharing sex at a frequency of around 4-6x a week and sometimes more. 4-6x a week isn't too much, too little or a right or wrong answer.

Where we usually have sex once on Friday, twice on Saturday, twice on Sunday with anymore usually happening through the week. We also sometimes do it three times a day on a weekend which is plenty for me. That said in the past I/We have gone more often than that. But hey we're middle aged now, so I don't think either of us expect to be having sex more than 3x a day most or all days of the week.

I think one of the nice things is we don't do marathon sessions that frequently, 15-20 minutes start to finish is pleasant for both of us. Sometimes we want longer and can happily go 30-50 minutes generally speaking though that often becomes somewhat boring. So if we do want more we instead usually spread the sex through 2 or 3 encounters throughout a day

Sometimes my wife wants it more often sometimes I do, sometimes she wants it less sometimes I want it less. How much is what all participants are happy with

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against sex in marriage or a relationship. But the "experts" seemed to have informed us that if we have sex less than 10 times a year, we're in a "sexless" relationship.
Well if it's any consolation I don't think you are against sharing sex that you enjoy at all, I presume having sex that you desire and enjoy is the only kind you would understandably want.

As to the experts I don't know, I'm just some random guy who lives in Australia that enjoys sex and participating in an online marriage forum. That said for me a sexless relationship would be one where I don't get any sex.

Personally with respect to not getting any, I have no problem with not getting any when I or my wife is ill, my wife and or I are geographically separated overnight or for longer, one or both of us is hospitalised or otherwise physically incapacitated.

That said absent the above mentioned caveats and or other unmentioned reasonable causes. I would consider myself to be in an actual sexless relationship, if sex fell to nothing for a few weeks through several months. Which given such a circumstance I would most certainly either end that sexual relationship or renegotiate that sexual relationship in order to get sex elsewhere sans cheating on someone.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
I can't wrap my head around that. If you're having sex 10 times a year, you're still having sex; so to me, it can't be "sexless". And of course, the LD person is deemed to be "dysfunctional".
10x a year that's less than once a month, (sans the caveats) that would be a sufficient cause for me sans significant resolution to choose to get sex elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Meanwhile, there doesn't seem to be a limit at the opposite end of the spectrum. We can have too little, but not too much? I mean, at what point does it become "too much"? Does it EVER become "too much"?
Of course we can feel like we're having too much or too little.

Too little or too much is all rather subjective and often variably changes through a sexual relationship. Currently for me too much is where I can't earn a living, can't perform sexually anymore, can't do anything else I am interested in and is more than I variably and subjectively feel like.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
And I think that may be part of the problem with an LD. No matter how much sex you give the HD, they always seem to want MORE.
This idea of giving is an interesting thing if I am giving up too much to have sex (having sex with someone I am not attracted to only because I am still in a nominal sexual relationship with them) or not getting anything much out of having sex (not getting off and not enjoying the experience), I don't want to have sex with them it's that simple.

Until I stumbled upon TAM looking up some non-vanilla sexual discussions, I had never even heard of the idea that people are specifically LD/HD low desire/drive or high desire/drive. My sexual experience with various women and through two marriages, never saw me experience any significant drop in sexual frequency when together and capable even after 20 years of sharing it with one partner.

Maybe people don't read each other well! At least on here whenever people make "wedding cake" remarks etc, I am invariably not surprised to learn that they have been or are in "sexless" relationships, despite the fact they claim the sex was great at the beginning. Yet when they share more detail almost all of what they describe as being great would have me letting them go regardless of their gender long before marriage.

That said I did rose coloured glasses with my first marriage which was a massive train wreck of mutual; foolish romanticism, youth, immaturity, naivety, financial stress, raising an at the time partly unwanted child, work required separation/absence on my behalf combined with being a jerk, plus some mental illness and actual physical marital infidelity on her behalf. We were married at 19 and 18 respectively, separated post her infidelity before 21 and 20 and divorced at 22 & 21, when we chose to smash our relationship we jumped in with both feet and went hard

Funnily enough despite making half of that mess I am a far better sexual relationship partner now for having had that experience.

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Is there a point where the HD says, "Enough!"?
Probably, I guess it all depends upon who they are, where they are, when they are and whomever they are with.
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post #87 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 01:44 AM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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...................h because they just wanted to have sex with pleasing me be the secondary priority. I've had girls/women cheat on me just to have sex with other guys and I think it had nothing to do with pleasing the guy.

My problem with this whole thread is the implication that sex isn't as important to women as it is for men.

The problem is that women's sex drive changes whereas men tend to remain constant unless they become unhealthy. A woman's body desires sex for procreation and as they get older that need is reduced. Without the hormones telling them it's time to have sex they simply forget that sex is important.


Give Vega a little testosterone and watch her go crazy if she can't have sex. Then maybe her perception of the importance of sex will change.

Like eating, drinking, breathing, and going to the bathroom, sex is something we just do. When we get married and agree to a monogamous relationship. When one of those two people doesn't do it (or rarely does it) then the other is left without, or forced to leave. That's why it's the end all be all deal breaker.
Also, as I previously said, the reduction of sex in the marriage is often an indicator of something else going wrong which is the actual reason the divorce happens.
I agree with lots of what you say but the bolded is fiction, not fact. Post menopausal here and free, free, free as a bird with no concerns for pregnancy. Having more sex now than pre menopause.

Often people say here that it is the brain that is the biggest decider when it comes to sex and I agree.

OP's has a negative attitude to sex, she is younger than me.
I have a positive attitude to sex which is brain based not hormonal.

No absolutes.

As for men, Mr H has tested as the lower end of the T levels for his age (55) and his desire is very strong. We have sex daily at a minimum and he, even at 55 with lower T can easily go twice in an evening with little refractory time.
When he tested low he (we) researched and he modified his diet and exercise regime. His Dr told him that T is not the be all and end all of sex drive, the mind is.
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post #88 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 02:54 AM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

Holland,

As a fit, healthy man close to his age I can tell you what I believe is true in this situation.

He is intensely into you. It really is that simple.


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Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post
I agree with lots of what you say but the bolded is fiction, not fact. Post menopausal here and free, free, free as a bird with no concerns for pregnancy. Having more sex now than pre menopause.

Often people say here that it is the brain that is the biggest decider when it comes to sex and I agree.

OP's has a negative attitude to sex, she is younger than me.
I have a positive attitude to sex which is brain based not hormonal.

No absolutes.

As for men, Mr H has tested as the lower end of the T levels for his age (55) and his desire is very strong. We have sex daily at a minimum and he, even at 55 with lower T can easily go twice in an evening with little refractory time.
When he tested low he (we) researched and he modified his diet and exercise regime. His Dr told him that T is not the be all and end all of sex drive, the mind is.
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post #89 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 03:25 AM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
Holland,

As a fit, healthy man close to his age I can tell you what I believe is true in this situation.

He is intensely into you. It really is that simple.
Aye Aye Captain and what a blessing that is.

Yes I know he is and I feel the same about him. I could bring this round full circle to a past thread and state that Mr H expresses his love for me through intimate connection. I am very much open to that concept even though sex is not an expression of love or emotion for me.
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post #90 of 1358 (permalink) Old 06-22-2016, 05:52 AM
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Re: Is Sex The "Bottom Line"?

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
So, there are only 2 options for you: Either no relationship and no sex OR, a relationship with LOTS of sex. No in-between, right?
Pretty much. "Sufficient sex" as I put it, may mean a range that will do nicely. But yes, LOTS works very well for us - BOTH of us, quite honestly.

We were both in sexless, affectionless marriages previously, and we were both unhappy in those. Never again will either of us accept a significant mismatch that isn't just temporary!

Love is an ideal thing; marriage is a real thing; a confusion of the real with the ideal never goes unpunished. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

CELIBACY IS NOT HEREDITARY.
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