Thor

We have several kids, late teens/early 20's. I am the last on my wife's list of priorities. I am the only one she has ever been able to say "no" to. Four years ago I gave up on initiating sex with her (and she never did after that) when she got up to let the dogs into the bedroom. I HATE the dogs in the bedroom when we're having sex. She couldn't stand the thought that the dogs might be unhappy being banished for an hour. She would rather annoy me than the dogs!

She has responded amazingly well to these issues with me. But it definitely takes a conscious effort on her part. If things are just going along on autopilot I am right back on the bottom of the long list of priorities.


I see it the same way. What I hear from her and from other CSA survivors though is that they see us somehow blaming their abuse. The abuse is, in their minds, something very shameful. So we are blaming them in the worst possible way.

I blame first of all her abuser. His evil has touched me and my family.

Secondly I blame my wife for bad decisions, dishonesty, and avoidance. She never set out to harm me, though her actions did indeed harm me greatly.

Thirdly, I blame myself for not dealing with the issues in an effective way. Perhaps the most effective way is what most men would have done, and that is divorce my wife by the end of the first year when she regularly refused sex. My own issues led me to conclude that I was defective, and thus I turned everything that was wrong in the marriage onto myself.

JustAMan2

Thor, our stories are so similar that it's eerie to me!! I'm not sure I buy into the "accepted wisdom". I do agree that the victim needs some time and space to work through the issues stemming from abuse, but PROGRESS does need to be made in a regular and timely way. I think it's very VERY difficult for a spouse to be the one to "monitor" this progress. I think a councilor/therapist is probably the best person to do this.

A spouse is just "too close" to it all and it only builds feelings of resentment that come between the couple. It's like you said, you will love and support her BUT she absolutely must bring the marriage relationship up to an acceptable level. That includes, but is not limited to sex. Not just frequency--but the level of passion.

My fuse too is so much shorter now with my wife. For years and years I have endured her "crap" without knowing why. Now I know why, that doesn't make all those feelings of resentment I have just vanish like magic. BUT...I do stop and think and try to consider and even ask her, "Where is this coming from?" to try to get her to see what her behavior is doing in our marriage.

It is a difficult road for both of us. But I think it's worth it to be better. My wife, however, does not agree with me at this point. I am hoping and praying that will change.

JustAMan2

My wife too has a tendency to do what I call "return to default mode". It just easier than having to think about it and work at healing. She is also easily distracted by other "important things", some of which are of her own making and, in my opinion, designed by her to keep the focus and pressure off of her and what she needs to be doing to heal. In other words--the default mode of avoidance.

I would totally agree with the "order of blame" you have written about. I do bear some responsibility. Looking back on things, I guess I should have "manned up" early on in our marriage. If I had done that, my wife probably would have just divorced me--but we'll never know now.

But...my wife refuses at this point to accept any responsibility for her role in bring this abuse into our marriage and allowing it to have such a negative impact. She mostly blames me. I told you I buried myself in work to "fill the hole". Well, that's her "out" in her mind. She says I abandoned her with work. That is true, but many a time I sat her down and explained my needs to her and what was going to happen if my needs weren't met. I am a "straight shooter" and I had no problem looking her right in the eye and telling her how it was.

What finally convinced her to tell me was that that she believed I was leaving her. I had indeed had enough abuse from her and had, over a period of several years, withdrawn from her more and more. There were some other things too that pointed to the idea that I was "outta here". Emotionally though, I had been "checked out" for a long, long time.

It's a response to the very real and deep pain of almost constant rejection, I think. I'm not saying its right, but it is a very typical response.

Thor

JaM2, I'm getting worried that you are me, and I don't remember posting under the name JaM2!

I too went off into building my career, with a conscious thought of it being a way to not have to deal with the dysfunctional marriage. I wasn't so direct as you were maybe with telling my wife what my needs were. That was a failing of mine. I was afraid of blowing up the marriage and so I let too much slide.

As you said, we'll never know what would have happened had we either known the truth or had we stood stronger for our own needs early on.

My wife, at least to me, refuses to accept any responsibility. But she must know on some level that the psych side effects of the abuse have an impact because she is so strongly reactive to any suggestion of it.

My wife only told me when she saw I was serious about divorce being an imminent option. Like it could be decided during that conversation that I was going to pull the plug. She thought I was already emotionally out of the marriage, which led her to abandon the marriage 2.5 years ago. So I thought she was in an affair (and am not convinced yet she wasn't), and thus I confronted her.

Your words "the very real and deep pain of almost constant rejection" are verbatim what I have said to my wife about how the marriage has been for me.

4821

agree

4821

How was your relationship with your wife before you were married?

4821

married 23 years - what point did she tell you she was abused in her childhood? at what point did you feel neglected in this marriage?

Chuckp47

Very good thread, and very telling. I've often wondered if this isn't lurking in my wife's past somewhere. There have been moments when we have gotten close to the truth but then the wall goes back up. A person who would knowingly bring another person in this type of relationship has only concern for themselves. She doesn't want to be alone so she doesn't tell you the truth, not a great way to begin a relationship. And no, i would not have married her. I wanted a wife, not a psychology project and i have paid dearly for that mistake. In a world where bad things happen to good people you either learn to move on or you don't. My wife's entire life has passed her by but I can't waste one more minute trying to fix what she isn't willing to have fixed.
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JustAMan2

4821, we only dated for 11 months before we married. It was a "whirlwind" romance. That is part of the problem, I suppose. Our relationship was very good at that point. My wife thought when she met me and "fell in love" (infatuation) that the "crap" from her past was all behind her. She thought "I now have a man who truly loves me.", and that the past issues were just that--all in the past.

Looking back on it now, there were signs that I didn't pick up on, but that the price you pay for being young and blissfully in love with someone. I think the "me" of today would have slowed down and wanted to know lots more about her before asking her to marry me.

JustAMan2

4821, actually we have been married 24 years. She did not reveal her past abuse until just shy of year 23.

I felt neglected in the marriage very early on. With in a year or two. The "honeymoon" phase wore off (as is natural) and she began to revert back to her old ways of avoiding things that were difficult for her (sex in particular). I began to speak to her about why her sexual responses were not "normal". By that I mean that there is a wide range of sexual responses (none are right or wrong) but NO response or so little it's almost undetectable is a sign that something is wrong. I had no clue what was wrong at the time.

At one point, about 5 years into the marriage she stopped having intercourse with me. We "fooled around", but she said intercourse hurt too much. I wanted to "fix" this problem. I wanted to go to the Dr. with her to see what was wrong but my wife forbade it. She had a host of other physical problems as well and I chalked it up to that. Come to find out, it was actually steming from the abuse. It was based in that, is what I mean. Thankfully, we are now having intercourse again. It's not where it should be, but it's a start I suppose.

The problem is that for all those years a lot of anger and hostility and frustration and resentment built up in me. She wanted a husband she could trust and who would make her feel safe. While I have never ever even raised my hand to my wife (or any other woman) she sensed my frustrations. I would even talk to her directly (and yes, lovingly) about them. I suppose to her I was like her molester in some ways.

It was a vicious circle. She refused to meet my needs, or even tell me what the problem was. I would get angry and withdraw (typical male response) or try to get her to talk about it. She would accuse me of being a sex maniac, saying that I was the one with the problem and that all wives complain about the same thing with their husbands (not true!!). I was lonely, confused, angry and resentful. Eventually, I just concluded that my wife found me repulsive and digusting. Even though others people indicated I was not.

Not good ingredients for a "good" husband or a happy marriage.

JustAMan2

Chuck47, most victims of abuse have serious walls. My wife does. I mean SERIOUS walls. We all have walls, most of which are healthy.

My wife doesn't have any close friends at all. None. Her "best friend" (female) was not even told about her abuse until just recently. Even then it was just a brief, sketchy conversation.

Also, I don't believe for one moment that my wife did all she did with any malice towards me (although at the time it sure did feel like it!!). Yours probably didn't either.

Childhood sexual abuse can alter a person at the very core of their being. Some people (I know some very, very well) are able to bring it up, get help and move past it. Others...like my wife, don't.

I've often wondered what makes one person one way (dealing with things in a healthy, productive way) and another person the other way (denial, avoidance etc.--the unhealthy way of dealing with it).

I suppose it depends in part on the family dynamic. My wife's family is pretty dysfunctional (it's only seen once you get to know them pretty good though).

If you suspect your wife was abused, I would suggest reading the book I sited in an earlier post. It's called "Wounded Heart". It's a tad bit technical, but readable none-the-less. In it, I saw my wife so clearly!!! He describes behaviors that she has that for years baffled me.

I've read that up to 40% of women have been sexually abused to one degree or another (either as a child or an adult or both). You mentioned that this was a very telling thread. I think the fact that we now have 5 pages of responses speaks volumes.

Chuckp47

Thank you again. This last post seems like something out of my life. I have been to counseling for years, it started out because She had me convinced that there was something wrong with me. I do not always deal with this in the best way. As an example last night I was watching tv before going to sleep. She came into the room and for some reason the people on the show said sex 4 or 5 times in a row. I didn't say anything but she finally said "no wonder you think about sex all the time.". This could have gone many ways but for some reason the statement went through me. As if this was the reason I want companionship from my wife! (we are quickly gaining on the 4 month mark of no contact now btw). I said "no, the reason I think about sex is because I am a sex addict, dont worry though, am striving to be more assexual like you." Passive aggressive I know. of course she flew off the handle. She asked me why I was such an a-hole. Told her it was fun. That ended the conversation. She got what she wanted (instilling that I was indeed an a-hole) and I got what I wanted which was to be left alone... Good work.
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JustAMan2

Chuck47, it took a LONG, LONG time to convince my wife that my sex drive, albeit on the high end of the scale, and was actually quite normal. Also, it took a long time to convince her that men think about sex lots more than women and that also is quite normal. That we "connect" emotionally with our mates through sex and that is also quite normal.

In her mind, anything "outside" of her view of sex (frequency, positions, and other habits) was "abnormal", "weird" or "a perversion". In truth, her view of sex was severely warped, not only by the abuse, but by her parent’s very unhealthy view of sex as well. Pile on top of that her strict religious upbringing and it's a 1-2-3 punch that makes for almost sure-fire failure as a mate.

BUT--she refused to even discuss what was "normal". She refused to read material on it. When I would do so, she would scold me and say, "I wish you wouldn't read that perverted stuff." as if it were child porn or something. Her reactions where THAT strong.

One thing that helped us turn the corner, we took a marriage enrichment class at our congregation, "Love and Respect". It helped open her eyes to the fact that I was indeed normal in my sexual needs/desires. She tried to explain away things several times, but at the end of the day there was not much denying that what I wanted in our marriage was just plain old "normal".

It took a 3rd party saying it for her to at least consider the thought that her husband might not be the problem after all. He MIGHT just be fairly normal.

We also read the book "Sheet Music". Well, I read it anyway. She has read about half of it but is currently "stalled out" on that activity as well. I also read "His Needs/Her Needs" and read aloud to her what men’s needs typically are (#1 is sexual satisfaction/gratification). I also read "The 5 Languages of Love" and we discovered together what each other love language is (mine is physical touch, hers is quality time). I read a host of other material, but my wife says "I don't enjoy reading." yet she started a murder/mystery book by her favorite author a few weeks ago.

Do you have a stated purpose for no contact? If so, what is it? Is it meeting the objective you set forth? If not, I'd chuck it (pardon the pun, Chuck). Try something else, something different.

Try reading some of the books together. Use a pink (for her) and blue (for you) highlighter when you see a point that really strikes a cord with you and then discuss it with your wife.

Pay close attention to what she says is important, and try to get her to understand the same about your needs.

It may not work for you, but it helped us get the ball rolling.

I wish you the best Chuck. It sounds like you are in a really tough spot right now. I know that feeling, believe me!!

Thor

If you read my posts and JustaMan2's posts you'll see several things. One is that our wives intentionally withheld information. Another is that they at some point knew that they were being affected by the fallout of the abuse. Finally, that fallout did impact the husband (and my kids) greatly.

If my wife had no memory of the abuse or thought she was completely over it, then it would have been no big deal for her to answer a YES when I asked her THREE TIMES if she had been abused or raped. In any case, once she realized she was having serious problems after we were married it was her duty to inform her spouse.

I don't know how aware she was of the significance of the abuse when we got married. So I understand how she could decide to not tell me. She might not have even really thought about the abuse much during our dating phase. At some point it did become obvious and relevant, and thus she should have told me.

She should have asked me for help and support. I am her husband, not her abuser.

I think that this topic of the right of the spouse to know of the abuse is a big divide between the abuse survivor and those around them. There is the term Secondary Survivor for a reason - we are also victims of the abuser. The abuse victim unintentionally and without malice passes on the evil by hiding the truth from their spouse.

It simply seems wrong to me that a human would not have the right to know critical information about their intended spouse which will have an enormous negative impact on their lives.

Thor

My wife mentioned the trust word to me in relation to not telling me. Like you, I was nothing but dedicated to her, the marriage, and the family. Yet she rejected me continually.

By not telling me, I was unintentionally doing things which triggered her. So yes in a way I did become her molester in her mind.

We got into the same vicious cycle of resentments and anger as you. I also concluded I must be repulsive to her. My wife and I both suffered many years due to the dysfunctional cycles we were in.

The abuse victims who think their spouse has no right to know about their abuse must not realize the damage, hurt, anger, and agony being inflicted by their secrecy. Or they think that their own comfort trumps the rest of the family's emotional health.