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Word to the Wise

8K views 55 replies 19 participants last post by  peacem 
#1 ·
I have posted a couple of previous threads about my husband's ED and porn addiction and just wanted to
share a few things with all the husbands and wives out there who deny their spouses a fulfilling intimate life ...

I'd rather not go into all the events and drama of the past several months but the short story is after many years of a virtually sexless marriage and giving him multiple chances and every benefit of every doubt he was unwilling to change. He continued to engage to behavior that he knew hurt me (even if he thought I didn't know) while making half assed attempts at solving the situation. It was never sincere.

I loved him. In almost every other way we were so good together. Common interests and goals, really enjoyed each other's company. He was my rock when I lost my parents, had kid drama and financial difficulty. He took care of me when I was sick, he listened to me when I needed to vent. He supported and encouraged me in a very scary career change. He was more than my best friend, I was closer to him than I have ever been to anyone, I depended on him like no one else, he knew me better than anyone. He was considerate and attentive and loving in virtually every other way. But for all that I do not love him any more.

He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you. Every time he tried to rationalize his behavior and minimize my pain because " it wasn't about me", my love died a little bit. I dont hate him or resent him or am even mad at him, I just stopped loving him.

So if you are some version of him please do not fool yourself into thinking that your actions are not having an effect on your spouse and on your marriage, just because you don't think they should. Perhaps you can compartmentalize you feelings, but I guarantee your spouse cannot. And eventually they will just stop loving you. It doesn't matter what else you do right or well. It might take a month or a year or 10 years but sooner or later it will hit them that they just don't love you anymore.

I hope losing me was worth to my husband whatever it was he was able to keep by not facing his demons.







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#5 ·
It is sad so many men choose to watch porn instead of appreciating their wives.

Why resorting to junk food when you have a fine meal in your own bed?

Like a Big Mac is clogging the arteries, porn is clogging the man's brain.
Human sexuality is much more dynamic than the analogy of one's desire for food.

Porn is more like watching a commercial for the Big Mac that you will never get to eat. Since human desire sometime needs a little distance to create a spark, the idea of an unobtainable Big Mac is not what makes you fat. It is the idea that it is unobtainable because you do not deserve it, then you stuff your face with whatever self pity you have to make yourself feel better, and that makes you fat.
 
#4 ·
#6 ·
Masturbation and pornography go hand-in-hand for men. Pornography is a type of addiction and men are quite visual.

Eliminate masturbation and you usually eliminate the need for pornography (at least for men).

Your sexual desire belongs to your spouse, not to some fantasy on a screen.

BTW, there are plenty of married women who get off on sexual fantasy books.

Reminds me of something I read long ago, "Women hate porn but sure do read the f**k out of it."

What I'm saying is that pornography robs a marriage of a spouse's sexuality toward their mate. Masturbating while fantasizing about someone else also harms a marriage.
 
#15 · (Edited)
...I loved him. In almost every other way we were so good together...
He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you. Every time he tried to rationalize his behavior and minimize my pain because " it wasn't about me", my love died a little bit. I dont hate him or resent him or am even mad at him, I just stopped loving him.
Wow, I can totally relate to this, particularly the "death by a thousand cuts". I think most of us understand that rejection of your spouse, for whatever reason, will build resentment and slowly destroy the love that holds a marriage together. Refusers always find a reason they use to justify what they are doing or blame to avoid the reality that they are in fact violating their wedding vows, just as much as an affair is a violation, IMO. Some people justify their refusing by saying it's the partners fault for not wooing them or doing something they disliked. If your partner is not wooing you the way you want, you need to teach them what you like. If you put your partner in "the doghouse" or you barter sex for errands, you are harming your marriage and breaking your wedding vows. Love and affection for each other should always have as few barriers as possible. I said this in another thread:

"When my wife rejected me, I told her in therapy that she was making me feel like a rapist. She had no idea the damage she was causing to our marriage. Honestly, the one thing that makes a marriage unique is the love and sex. Shared activities are not a replacement. My wife thought our life and marriage was perfect. Until I said I hate this life and want a divorce. It took me 15 years to get to that point. Sooner or later most people get there. You don't have a marriage"

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/351674-needing-help-understanding-3.html#post16601210

Just as with my wife, the refuser usually has some psychological issue that needs to be worked out. In this case he has withdrawn from marriage with a porn addiction. I would bet there is a deeper issue, but if someone is unwilling to work through the issue with a counselor, there is little hope of recovery, IMO. For me, my wife had hangups that were established as a child that had to be overcome for us to have a chance. After a lot of counseling and threats of divorce, I now think there is a chance of success with my wife and I. We are having sex again... but I don't know yet if I can love her again... The chance of success would have been much higher had my wife been able to acknowledge her problem before I got to the point of falling out of love and researching divorce lawyers. At this point, I feel like she has to start from ground zero to build trust and love with me. But, I recognize that the divorce threat is the only thing that finally woke her up. Is it real, will it last? Most people say it won't. We'll see.
 
#16 ·
For me, my wife had hangups that were established as a child that had to be overcome for us to have a chance. After a lot of counseling and threats of divorce, I now think there is a chance of success with my wife and I. We are having sex again... but I don't know yet if I can love her again... The chance of success would have been much higher had my wife been able to acknowledge her problem before I got to the point of falling out of love and researching divorce lawyers. At this point, I feel like she has to start from ground zero to build trust and love with me. But, I recognizer that the divorce threat is the only thing that finally woke her up. Is it real, will it last? Most people say it won't. We'll see.
I read this a lot and suspect there are many issues from childhood that have been safely tucked away and are not revisited until threat of abandonment. It took 20 years of marriage for my H to talk about things from his childhood, and only then because his brother had already whistle-blown as a result of his own therapy. He was completely in denial, even labouring a point of what a great childhood he had. He now tells me things that hurt me a great deal, I can't even look at pictures of him as a child.
 
#18 ·
I have posted a couple of previous threads about my husband's ED and porn addiction and just wanted to
share a few things with all the husbands and wives out there who deny their spouses a fulfilling intimate life

.... He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you. Every time he tried to rationalize his behavior and minimize my pain because " it wasn't about me", my love died a little bit. I dont hate him or resent him or am even mad at him, I just stopped loving him.

So if you are some version of him please do not fool yourself into thinking that your actions are not having an effect on your spouse and on your marriage, just because you don't think they should. Perhaps you can compartmentalize you feelings, but I guarantee your spouse cannot. And eventually they will just stop loving you. It doesn't matter what else you do right or well. It might take a month or a year or 10 years but sooner or later it will hit them that they just don't love you anymore.....
I am so sorry for your loss. Yes you H destroyed his marriage over porn. Yes, there are those addicted to porn and so it is a danger. There is a lot of evil porn out there as well.

However, I just posted a response to UMP about porn and I thought I would share a little bit of that here.

I have been married to the same wonderful woman that I dearly love for over 45 years. There was a time not long ago, when we drifted apart and were in a sex starved marriage where she refused to have sex. There was not sex for months and months and at one point I thought that there never again would be sex between us. Porn had nothing to do with that. With luck, a lot of introspection, change on my part and help from others I got my wife into counseling with a great sex therapist who helped saved our marriage.

One of the things (among many) that the Sex Therapist did was assign us as a couple to watch a Sinclair Institute Better Sex video and discuss what we saw and what our feelings were about various parts of the video. Let me assure you, it was porn, but explicit sexual acts among adult consenting couples who where trying to pleasure each other. They didn't have perfect bodies, they were real looking people.

So in a very real sense I have an opposite experience from you. I can point to where "porn" viewing with my wife was used as one of several methods to help save my marriage.

Having said that, "porn" can be very bad for a marriage as you so well have pointed out.

I hope that you find happiness.
 
#19 ·
@Young at Heart a sex therapist recommended the same. We only watched part of one but I think my w really responded to it. Women who don't watch porn and didn't talk about sex often have strange ideas about what is normal and abnormal and seeing open people talk about it can be very cathartic. (Btw people who do watch porn also can have funny ideas about sex)


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#21 · (Edited)
He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you.
I've been thinking about this post and other relationships that may be in similar situations, and this part really gets to me. Odds are this husband watched porn before he met his wife and likely continued watching it all throughout the courtship phase when things were going ecstatically great in the relationship. I'm not advocating for or against porn, but I'm just pointing out that it was most likely a preexisting condition that was always present even if such behavior may have remained hidden.

But here the OP points to it as one of the primary causes of the relationship's demise.

In my opinion if the husband developed ED, he was suffering from some form(s) of physical and/or mental health problems for which he was unable to overcome on his own. As adults we all understand the concept of "self medicating" and how some behaviors such as food, sleep, or masturbation are the goto choices to try and get yourself to feel better. Why would he not see a doctor or a psychologist?

@wringo123 if your husband was someone that just never went to the doctor, or was frustrated with skyrocketing healthcare costs to the point that he could no longer tell you the name of his primary physician, perhaps you might point some of the blame to a failing healthcare system. Now a days if you actually want to have a meaningful conversation with your doctor, it will not happen unless it is someone you have been seeing on a regular basis for a few years. Then if the doctor can't help and finally decides to refer you to a therapist/psychologist, this person will not really be able to help you until they have also spent significant time with you. Are those things worth the investment? YES!!!! It is easy to see that from someone's point of view that stays away from the doctor to try and save money as the family budget struggles? NO!!!!

So if you want to point out a primary cause that harmed your relationship, you might want to consider your husband's lack of access to proper healthcare instead of blaming it on porn.

Sincerely,
Badsanta
 
#23 ·
@wringo123 if your husband was someone that just never went to the doctor, or was frustrated with skyrocketing healthcare costs to the point that he could no longer tell you the name of his primary physician, perhaps you might point some of the blame to a failing healthcare system. Now a days if you actually want to have a meaningful conversation with your doctor, it will not happen unless it is someone you have been seeing on a regular basis for a few years. Then if the doctor can't help and finally decides to refer you to a therapist/psychologist, this person will not really be able to help you until they have also spent significant time with you. Are those things worth the investment? YES!!!! It is easy to see that from someone's point of view that stays away from the doctor to try and save money as the family budget struggles? NO!!!!

So if you want to point out a primary cause that harmed your relationship, you might want to consider your husband's lack of access to proper healthcare instead of blaming it on porn.

Sincerely,
Badsanta
I wish it were a simple as that. He's actually pretty good about going to the doctor and taking care of health issues in general. He's had a couple of different prescriptions for ED meds over the years and has never used them with any consistency. What has got me to this point is his total disregard for my feelings about how badly it hurts me that he turned to porn instead of making any kind of real effort to address the problem.

Having a physical relationship with me just isn't important enough to him to do the work to fix whatever the issue is. More to the point, the fact that it leaves me feeling totally undesirable and frustrated isn't even enough motivation. Over and over I hear from him and on this board and in the literature in general "it isn't about you"...well, I disagree. When he has made it plain that a sexual relationship with me isn't worth giving up porn, even when it leaves me feeling totally rejected and worthless, then it is all about me. If that isn't being rejected, I don't know what is.

He'd rather hurt me and destroy our relationship than deal with something that makes him feel bad about himself. It's that simple.
 
#22 ·
Whether it be porn, masturbation, or other means of solo pleasure, the issue ultimately is when one directs their sexual energy towards their solo activities in place of their SO. As some have stated here, there is nothing inherently wrong with porn, people can use it to enhance their sexual relationship with their SO, and likewise use it without diminishing their sexual energy towards their SO. However, for others it is not possible, and porn/masturbation is used to replace in some part the sexual relationship with their SO.
 
#24 ·
Yes that is it in a nutshell.

What is interesting is why one person can use porn as harmless recreation and another person cannot. It becomes an overwhelming need which overtakes the same need to have physical intimacy with a partner. I think most women in this situation at some point will see themselves as the problem which makes it worse. We stop feeling sexy, so we do not initiate and there a viscous circle starts.

I think the only solution is to break the loop by getting to what he is really self-soothing for? Sometimes it is straight forward (stress at work for example) and other times it is more complex. I agree with badsanta that therapy is needed and probably considerably cheaper than divorce.
 
#27 ·
I think the reason @badsanta 's wife responded well to him not getting upset and hurt is because those who withdraw from sex most likely feel very guilty. My husband talked a lot about feelings of guilt. Things improved here when I stopped getting upset and angry. I remember taking a more business like approach to communicating that didn't involve over emotional rants. It was similar to negotiating an international peace treaty. I am going to do .....I would like you to do....lets do together......we will trial it for a year....etc.
 
#28 ·
@badsanta,

I appreciate you perspective, but in the past 8 years we have been intimate maybe a dozen times. We have never had full on intercourse. He has never gone more than 48 hours without porn.

I have been patient, I have been supportive, I have been pushy, I have been understanding, I have been quiet, I have been loud, I have been accepting, I have been sad, I have been angry.

Now I am done.
 
#32 ·
I don't honestly know what I am going to do. We separated for awhile last year and during that time I really didn't miss him, but the thought of divorcing and starting all over again is kind of overwhelming to me right now. It is mostly the reason I ended up coming back. I just turned 55 and at this point I don't know if it is worth starting over.

Part of me can see me being at least content in a celibate relationship, especially now that I really don't have any desire for anything more. Like I said in my opening post, we otherwise get along great and have a lot of common interests and a lot of fun together and I don't hate him and I'm not even mad at him. I just have accepted that he is a broken person that cannot change. And it never was so much about the lack of the physical act as it was about feeling devalued and replaced with porn. I can live without the physical act, as the past several years have proven, and I no longer care about being replaced. Another part of me is sick over the knowledge that I will never experience being truly and passionately loved.

A lot of it depends on how he reacts, if at all, to the news that I have finally given up. Maybe I will get lucky and he will leave and I won't have to decide.
 
#33 ·
My heart goes out to you. Each of us has the right to decide what we want out of life. You sound like you are working to convince yourself what you want. Which is your right.

May I suggest a book for you it is called Still Sexy After All These Years. It is based on interviews with a large number of women who either through divorce, death, or illness are without their husband as a sex partner. It is about how and what they do to preserve their sensuality and sexuality. Many, many different approaches into channeling their sensuality and sexuality in a life without their traditional sex partner.

I hope you find happiness. If you do get back together, I strongly suggest a sex therapist to provide the two of you with counseling. A certified sex therapist is a marriage counselor with extra training in sexual problems between partners. Good luck.
 
#36 ·
I hate to sound like a negative Nellie shooting down all the advice because I truly do appreciate everyone who has taken the time and put some thought into responding....but

We've tried the therapy route. First thing we were told was the porn must stop. He couldn't even go 48 hours. After several months , thousands in co pays and zero progress I told him to stop. I could practically smell the relief coming from him.

I've read the Sex Starved wife. It was insightful but not really applicable. My husband is not low desire. He just can't get far enough past the ED to act on it and he won't do the hard work to get past the ED.

I don't know what is holding him back but whatever it is he is more scared of it than losing me.

And then there is the fact that I just don't care enough anymore to keep trying

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#37 ·
I remember a friend of mine was in a weird, abusive marriage - but she loved him dearly, and he gave her just enough affection and attention to keep her from leaving. When I asked her why she stays, she said "At the moment I still love him, but one day I will wake up and just not care anymore.".

And that is exactly what happened. She just needed to get to the point of just not caring either way. She woke up one morning, filled the car with her stuff and left. I didn't think she would ever do it.

So when you say 'I'm done' I believe you, but you need to act on it and heal outside the context of your marriage.

If you really cannot leave for whatever reason I would at least advise that you get a fulfilling and exciting life outside the home that does not involve him. Really do the things you have always wanted to do, leave him to his porn and you get your own life. I wonder if seeing his wife enjoying her life tremendously without him may prompt him to change...I doubt it.... but at least you will be having a good time finding out.
 
#39 ·
That's pretty much what happened to me...just woke up one day and realized I didn't care anymore. Actually, I think I have not cared for quite sometime, but continued old thought patterns and behavior just out of habit.

You are exactly right about getting a life outside of my marriage and I have been making baby steps towards that. One thing I am doing is planning my own personal vacation, without him. Going out west to visit friends and some family and I am really looking forward to it.
 
#38 ·
Your marriage seems cold. I can understand how you would be at wits end. I have never experienced what you are going thru but I know what a passionate marraige can be. I would not trade it for anything. Not even for financial security.

Forget your H and think about what you want, while you still have the ability to make the choice. Now that I am in my mid 40, 55 does not seem that old. There is much life to be lived. So dont spend another day with someone who cant love you the way you need. You need to be able to live a life with passion and love in it. This is everyone's right.

Good luck. I wish you well and hope everything works out for you.
 
#41 ·
Your marriage seems cold.
It's not, really. It is definitely passionless, but, friendly, I guess would be the best description. He has been good for me in a lot of other ways. He is the only person I have ever had in my life that truly supported me emotionally and has wanted to see me grow and succeed, and who honestly thought that I could. That is part of what has been so frustrating and why I have stayed as long as I have. There was an intense emotional connection that craved a physical outlet. Being rejected physically has slowly but surely eroded the intense emotional connection and therefore, the desire for anything physical, but there is still a connection. I just haven't decided if it is enough for me to stay.
 
#49 ·
I am only writing from my own experience but my H did not like me making porn - in theory it is a good idea. But he was very compartmentalised in wife/porn that it did nothing for him and set us a few steps back because of me feeling rejected/inadequate. It is risky, but certainly worth a try with cautionary notes.
In my opinion explicit videos within the context of two spouses learning to communicate and trust one another should not be called porn. The video in this case would just be a tool used to communicate while at the same time respecting each other's privacy.

But as @peacem mentioned, some may find this type of idea unsettling, particularly in the event the husband does not like it for whatever reason and the resulting rejection could be painful. For that reason it would be a good idea to talk with your husband first and make sure that he is not only open to the idea but may even have some requests such as some sort of role playing theme.
 
#51 ·
I have battled depression off and on my whole adult life and I don't recall being this down in ages. This whole situation has me dissecting every decision that I have made that got me to this place. It isn't a new revelation to me that I have always settled and have always been willing to accept less than what I deserve, but that knowledge is leaving me feeling defeated and depressed like I haven't felt in a long time.

Staying detached is just making me feel worse, but I also know that if I let myself get sucked in to keep trying with him that I will just end up getting disappointed again and the thought of that is just about more than I can bear.

Sorry having a bit of a pity party today...doesn't help that I am sick :(
 
#52 ·
I have battled depression off and on my whole adult life and I don't recall being this down in ages. This whole situation has me dissecting every decision that I have made that got me to this place. It isn't a new revelation to me that I have always settled and have always been willing to accept less than what I deserve, but that knowledge is leaving me feeling defeated and depressed like I haven't felt in a long time.
It's hard to keep moving when you hate your life. I know. But, you can't beat yourself up over his choices. You're obviously a kind, thoughtful, rational, and caring person. These are all very attractive qualities. Don't sell yourself short. Put yourself first. If there is a purpose to life, it is to experience the warmth and love of a partner that cares for you. Don't give up on that.

... pity party cancelled!
 
#55 ·
Before we were married 18 years ago my wife and I used to watch porn sometimes as a type of foreplay and other times it was rolling while we were rolling. Nothing extreme, but anything from couples porn, threesomes, and lesbian (her idea). My gal was smoking hot and wanted sex all the time. Over the last 10 years she has been putting on weight......enough that it is now a turnoff. She knows it and I know it. I still love the woman on the inside, but just don't feel the desire to be sexual. I'm angry that, although she has known from day one that weight is a HUGE issue for me, she has let herself go.

I still have desires and needs, so I take care of them myself.....sometimes with just my thoughts and our old memories, and other times with porn. I'm not lusting after the women in the porn, but I ALWAYS picture that my wife is that woman doing the things we used to do.

If I missed it I apologize but how much physically has the OP changed? Men are visual creatures and we are wired that way.
 
#56 ·
If I missed it I apologize but how much physically has the OP changed? Men are visual creatures and we are wired that way.
I agree *excessive* weight gain is preventable and we should all do our best to be as sexually attractive as possible. We are all visual regardless of gender but to a certain degree we have to accept that our partners are not going to stay 22 forever, will not have perfect young bodies forever, or the sexual energy that we used to have. If we focus exclusively on physical changes then the sexual desire we have for our partners will quickly fade for us all. I think being visually attracted to my spouse has a 10% role - much of my attraction to him comes from a deeper, more spiritual level that I can't quite explain. I think if the problems of the OP relationship was based on aesthetics alone then it probably isn't worth saving anyway because it is a very tenuous connection to hold onto. No, I suspect there is a lot more complexity going on with her H that maybe he doesn't quite understand himself yet, or something he does understand and is keeping secret.
 
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