Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
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post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-25-2016, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

Its interesting that this is so far from my personal experience in many different ways.. Probably my situation is unusua. Maybe I don't recognize the situation that I'm in?

My wife doesn't have responsive desire, or if she does, she actively avoids anything that might trigger it. She is more likely to occasionally exhibit spontaneous desire where she wants sex, reguardless of what has been going on earlier.

She doesn't particularly like PIV, so my "performance" is not part of her enjoyment.

I suspect that all this is unusual. OTOH, a lot of her behaviors seem very common in some LD/HD situations, especially the creation of "excuses" to avoid sex, while claiming that the avoidance is one-time only, and not general. Also the pattern that the LD is also very limited in the range of sexual activities that they enjoy seems common.




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Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
I have to think that the primary cause of sex-starved marriages are due to one partner having spontaneous desire and the other responsive desire.

Despite the current cultural imperative to insist that men and women are exactly the same, I think it's clear that (due to testosterone) men tend to have spontaneous desire and women responsive desire (especially once past the "new relationship" phase). A woman in an LTR who has responsive desire may well have spontaneous desire in a new relationship but I believe this to be due to the "newness" of the relationship, not a sudden change from one type of desire to another.

In a good relationship, a selfless person with responsive desire will put a effort into working with their responsive desire for the good of the relationship and because they love their partner and care about their happiness.

In a bad relationship, or with a selfish responsive desire partner, they will not be willing to put in the effort. They don't care about their partner's happiness (because their partner is an a$$hole or they are selfish).

On the HD's part, they need to be willing and able to turn their partner's responsive desire into actual desire. They need to make sex as good for their partner as possible and be appreciative of their efforts. Someone willing to work with their responsive desire may lose their motivation is sex is never good for them or their partner is unappreciative.

If a woman is LD, they can give oral and receive oral and (perhaps with outside lubrication) have PIV sex. They may not have an orgasm every time, but it's all do-able.

On the other hand, without an erection a male LD can give oral, maybe receive oral (on a flaccid penis) but not engage in PIV. Social expectations are that men always want sex and will always be ready to go. Men need erections. The pressure to achieve on can lead to performance anxiety, making the problem worse. Women may perceive the man's lack of an erection as there being something wrong with her. It's also generally thought that women "need time" to get in the mood while the general expectation for men is to have a hard-on the moment the woman starts undressing. In short, the need for erections vastly complicates sex for an LD or responsive desire male.

For men, if you can't count on performing or performing well, then you're going to naturally start trying to avoid the activity which leads to failure. It takes a lot of effort to go out on the basketball court and throw up shots when you fail often and end up disappointing your teammates. It's also a lot easier to bury your head in the sand and blame others for your problems. And, sure, the guy can perform oral on the woman but even those women who only orgasm via oral sex seem to put a significant value on PIV as well.

In short, I think that HD Man/ LD Woman situations are more common and easier to deal with (although hardly easy). Sometimes just destabilizing the relationship can spark the "new relationship" spontaneous desire.

As for HD Woman / LD Man, I find it hard to imagine it ever being solved.

I'm sure that many times withholding sex is used as a power and control issue. However, it's a lot easier to withhold sex if one has responsive desire that spontaneous desire. If an HD man is withholding sex from his wife, then (as in elegirl's situation) you'd think he has to be cheating.
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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-25-2016, 04:53 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

@uhtred: I tend to agree with @Buddy400 that things are different for the sexes in part based on biology. If you are a female HD and you need to get your LD husband with anxiety issues to perform better so he will feel confident that he is doing a good job of pleasing you, that is a daunting task. Think what it took @UMP to make sex better for his wife. And he was desperate to get more sex! Can you imagine trying to get your spouse to embark on that level of effort and investment for something they do NOT want for themselves?!?!

And @Buddy400, you can be a HD man and still decide to become sexless for power and control reasons. As in, you are sick and tired of ceding power and control to your LD wife, so you decide not to have sex at all rather than be subject to her whims.

When you can see it coming, duck!

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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-25-2016, 08:23 PM
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My advice is the same for either situation. Don't marry someone you're not sexually compatible with. If sex started out great but stops after marriage, and the LD spouse won't make any effort, then GTFO.
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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-26-2016, 09:28 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Its interesting that this is so far from my personal experience in many different ways.. Probably my situation is unusua. Maybe I don't recognize the situation that I'm in?

My wife doesn't have responsive desire, or if she does, she actively avoids anything that might trigger it. She is more likely to occasionally exhibit spontaneous desire where she wants sex, reguardless of what has been going on earlier.

She doesn't particularly like PIV, so my "performance" is not part of her enjoyment.

I suspect that all this is unusual. OTOH, a lot of her behaviors seem very common in some LD/HD situations, especially the creation of "excuses" to avoid sex, while claiming that the avoidance is one-time only, and not general. Also the pattern that the LD is also very limited in the range of sexual activities that they enjoy seems common.
I suspect that your wife does have responsive desire. It's just that she's selfish and therefore has no motivation to work with it.

If she was selfless and concerned about your happiness, she'd be motivated to give her responsive desire a chance. But, she's selfish, so she comes up with excuses to avoid putting any effort into it.

The performance anxiety is a problem for LD husband's with HD wives. It isn't an issue in your situation. If fact, performance problems on your part would probably be welcomed as it would lead to you bothering her less about sex.

Your wife has simply decided that if she doesn't spontaneously want sex, she shouldn't have sex. Your desires really just don;t come in to play.
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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 06:52 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Neither of these is desirable to many partners, and many people find sexual acts without desire to be unpleasant.
Yes and no. There are many out there who have a desire to please their partners when they, themselves, are not in the mood. That is far different then 'taking one for the team', as it were.

One could be completely LD, yet still have that desire to please your partner. The combination of being LD and having a "there's nothing in it for me" attitude is what's dangerous and undesirable.
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post #21 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 07:30 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post

I believe it is very possible to enjoy doing something but not get around to doing it very often.
I believe this describes my wife.

Nothing I've seen in the 8 or so years I've been with my wife would have me believe she doesn't like sex (or more specifically, sex with me). It's simply that it's not a priority for her, for whatever reason.

For her, it's almost purely physical - it's not about the connection and the intimacy. Many people view sex this way (typically men, I think). I believe this is largely due to a person's previous experiences, whether or not they've been in loving, caring relationships, how they've been treated by members of the opposite sex, even their upbringing.

I can't speak for my wife, but I suspect she was often treated as a sex object, as well as being surrounded by men who treated women similarly (she has two unmarried older brothers, one of whom is a complete dog). She's also always worked in a very male-dominated, blue-collar industry. For the first several years we were together, she referred to sex as "getting laid", "getting lucky", that sort of thing.

For many, there's a disconnect between the physical act of sex and one's own sexuality. I don't believe my wife ever thought that she owned her sexuality, and still doesn't. To her, she still views it as something she does for me - even though she (apparently) thoroughly enjoys the physicality of it (ie. orgasms etc.) I believe this is what she has learned through her upbringing and experiences - that sex is for men. Regardless of what pleasure she gets out of it, the ultimate goal is that it's not about her.

Therefore, regardless of the enjoyment she gets out of it, she still has that pressure of it all being 'for me', not for her. I can't convince her otherwise - that it's about both of us, or even occasionally just about her, or just about me. Trying to tell somebody they've always viewed something in the 'wrong' way is an uphill battle. And, as I alluded to, 20+ years of being made to feel (by others) that one's value is tied to something is inherently difficult to shake. Because I am her first honest-to-goodness solid 'real' relationship, and because I value her for all kinds of things, it's easy for her to subconsciously separate the two. There's marriage/relationship and there's sex. Because the emphasis, for the first time in her life, is on the relationship - not the sex - I can see how this has happened. Sex is a reminder of what others have always expected of her, and what she likely felt she was valued for, first and foremost.

The main problem I see (and I suspect that many other women are in the same boat) is that men, typically, DO always want sex. However, the dynamic changes for most of us men in relationships and marriages, or simply when we're in love. When we're single - yes, we want sex. Sex is awesome. Sex is also validation. Once we're in love, we want sex with you, not just sex. Yes, of course, we still have physical urges, but it's for you. My wife can't comprehend this, and I think many women don't (judging from the amount of similar threads on TAM). My wife is not just some hot chick I see and want to bone - but this is how she views the situation. "You just want me for sex" is such a familiar refrain on TAM. For people like my wife, it comes from years of seeing it firsthand. Yes, many people you come across in your lifetime will just want you for sex. So it inevitably becomes a trust issue for many people. Failing to believe that I don't want her just for sex, or that I only see her as T&A.

Last edited by alexm; 10-28-2016 at 07:40 AM.
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post #22 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 07:51 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

.

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post #23 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 08:01 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Originally Posted by EllisRedding View Post
One difference, a male with low desire may lead to performance issues that would actually impede the sex act (unable to get or maintain an erection). On the flipside, most females (I would think?) could still have sex (not taking into consideration whether she is actually into it or enjoying it).
I think that there is a similar, but different, response in females.

Sure a woman can have sex any time. But, if a woman has sex to 'service' her mate, it's very often a huge turn off. It does not have the effect of increasing desire/libido. It makes her want sex less.

Note that I'm using the word 'service' to mean that she's having sex and does not want it. But is appeasing the guy.
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post #24 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 08:32 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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I think that there is a similar, but different, response in females.

Sure a woman can have sex any time. But, if a woman has sex to 'service' her mate, it's very often a huge turn off.
It does not have the effect of increasing desire/libido. It makes her want sex less.

Note that I'm using the word 'service' to mean that she's having sex and does not want it. But is appeasing the guy.
Not only can it be a turn off, but it can also be extremely painful for a woman to have sex when she doesn't want it. Being continually pressured into having sex can lead to a form of sexual dysfunction in women - vaginismus.

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.

Last edited by Cosmos; 10-28-2016 at 09:14 AM.
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post #25 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 09:56 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

It's been my experience that there are fundamental gender based differences between men who are LD and women who are LD.

Social/familial conditioning, the pressure to avoid sex until marriage, affects both men and women but men have testosterone which is a very powerful prohibitory of shame based sex avoidance. Women are slvt shamed, men are not. Even a man labeled as a hound dog does not at all carry the same shame as a woman labeled as a slvt. Early slvt shaming can't be overcome by the appearance of a wedding ring. Slvt shaming also affects how women view men and male sexuality. Slvt shaming is essentially informing a woman that men are pigs and a woman who gives in will never be worthy of a man who respects her. The wedding ring doesn't erase this. Her husband's higher drive just reinforces that men are pigs and only want sex. Slvt shaming affects men because women will not believe sex is anything other than 'he just wants to get laid.'

Sex for women usually begins without orgasms, while men nearly always climax from the very first time. As I've said several times, of all the women I know only one had regular orgasms when she first became sexually active. My middle daughter, age 27, was sexually active beginning at 16. She talked to me about sex because she was upset that she couldn't orgasm and wondered if she had some sort of sexual problem. She started to have orgasms with the boyfriend after college. (it now appears she has her mother's sex drive) My youngest is 17 and she also was unable to orgasm with her boyfriend. They were sexually active for about a year before they broke up. She sometimes orgasms when she masturbates but not all the time. Both daughters asked me what was wrong with them that they couldn't orgasm "no matter what he did and believe me we've tried everything!"

How many of you are prepared to talk to your daughters about learning how to orgasm? I was not prepared for that either but I muddled through. Imagine how a young woman might feel if she were raised in a slvt shaming repressive environment? Even if she had a strong drive the lack of orgasm accompanied with sexual shame would set up resentment and distrust of men and their ease with regard to sex.

This leads me to wonder if female sexual response is a learned behavior. I think young women need to establish neural pathways in order to orgasm. I think because women take much longer to learn to orgasm, typically, while men start out climaxing quickly and easily, reinforces the idea that sex is predominantly for male pleasure. I think the pressure young women feel to be both desirable without appearing to be slvtty, all the wile not having orgasms sets women up for having to really think through their sexual response. I think women have to intentionally set out to enjoy sex while men are prewired to climax quickly and easily.

While men are affected by sexual shame and also become sexually repressed, testosterone is powerful enough to overcome both.

I believe the way a woman was raised and her ability to orgasm plays a very important role in a LOT of sexual mismatches.

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


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post #26 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

Interesting question. I enjoy pleasing my wife even if I'm not particularly in the mood for sex, of after I've finished, but I've never had a really lack of desire. I don't know what it would be like to please her if I really had no desire at all.

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Yes and no. There are many out there who have a desire to please their partners when they, themselves, are not in the mood. That is far different then 'taking one for the team', as it were.

One could be completely LD, yet still have that desire to please your partner. The combination of being LD and having a "there's nothing in it for me" attitude is what's dangerous and undesirable.
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post #27 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

@alexm, you post on how your wife feels like a sex object is I think exactly right for some women. What you describe seems to apply almost perfectly to my wife.

She views sex as something she does for me - even if I'm putting in almost all the effort, and doing exactly what she wants, and she is doing very little for me.

She likes to be viewed as attractive, wears lingerie around the house much of the time, and wants (and gets) appreciative comments, but almost never wants my attraction to her too turn into actual sexual desire.

Partly it seems that she views sex as degrading to women, and while she physically enjoys it, feels like she *shouldn't* enjoy it, so tries to avoid.
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post #28 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

Absolutely
We do have to be clear on how the word "sex" is used. For some it means intercourse, for others it means sexual activity.

In my case, my wife usually avoids all sexual activity, not just PIV, though that is now extremely rare because she finds it uncomfortable - at least partially because its extremely rare.

This distinction applies to men as well. A man with ED cannot have PIV sex, but can do other things to please his partner. Its not quite the same - ED makes sex impossible, but not painful, while is physically possible for a woman who isn't aroused to have sex, but it is very painful. Still, at least with a partner who doesn't want to cause pain, the effect is the same - PIV is out, but other things are possible.





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Not only can it be a turn off, but it can also be extremely painful for a woman to have sex when she doesn't want it. Being continually pressured into having sex can lead to a form of sexual dysfunction in women - vaginismus.
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post #29 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

It would be interesting to know how often female LD is associated with not having orgasms. It isn't always, there are a number of posters here whose partners do regularly O, but who still don't want sex. Still, it could be major cause.

Same for LD men and ED. Is that a common cause?
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post #30 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 10:54 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Interesting question. I enjoy pleasing my wife even if I'm not particularly in the mood for sex, of after I've finished, but I've never had a really lack of desire. I don't know what it would be like to please her if I really had no desire at all.
If you had no sexual desire?

Or if you had no desire to please her?

I could understand the first, I'm not sure that I can understand the second.
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