Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD - Page 4 - Talk About Marriage
Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

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post #46 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-29-2016, 06:24 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

I think there are fundamental differences because male/female physiology and sexual responses have a few differences, but the overall human emotions of "I want my partner, they don't want me" on the part of the HD partner and the "Sex is all they want from me" from the LD partner seem to be feelings echoed here on TAM from both men or women - enough to sort of form a pattern. Seems like non-sexual touch declines when sex declines too (or maybe the other way around). Not sure I can really relate to a LD person although of course I can try and empathize.

I would add for HD women there is an added sense of shame, because we're taught we're not "meant" to be the HD partner, and that if we can't inspire desire in our husbands there must be something wrong with us. That we are nymphomaniacs for wanting more than a distracted quickie to placate us. It took me 5 years to get that it wasn't anything that I did. He wasn't ever going to want sex more than a couple of times a month no matter how much weight I lost or lingerie I wore or hoops I jumped through in our relationship in general. Lesson learned. Of course, it might have been the other women I discovered he was sleeping with eventually, but initially, I'm at least somewhat certain there was nobody else and he just wasn't particularly excited by me. That never changed. Meh. His loss. I learned a few home truths in that marriage and would like to think the next time I am with someone in a relationship and they have less desire than me, I will learn it isn't personal, and isn't a reflection on me, and anger over it only sours the relationship, whether it's expressed or not.

Lack of sex after marriage seems to be sort of a cultural punchline, so I've got to think the longer you are with someone in general, even with no desire gap, there is less sex over the years.
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post #47 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 10:24 AM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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What you describe is what sexual shame does to a woman. She knows she is supposed to enjoy sex with her husband and she does. But the enjoyment isn't enough to overcome shame. She tries something knew, but can't reconcile enjoying something 'perverted' so she avoids it.

You wife is repressed because of sexual shame. If she could intentionally work to overcome that nasty voice of slvt shaming judgement, you both would have a much better sex life.

The modern virtuous woman who is liberated isn't supposed to enjoy something that might seem to be degrading and demeaning. This is another avenue of sexual shame and this also has to be intentionally overcome.

Men who want virgins, women without sexual experience? This is what that woman is like, this is why she could remain sexually inexperienced. Because shame prevented her from enjoying sexual desire.

So when you slvt shame the woman who has slept around too much, just remember that when she does settle down with a husband, she has already overcome sexual shame.
This post and the previous about female sexuality are, as usual, pure gold.

My only concern is where the "blame" is allocated.

You and @techmom (of course), blame men ("all men want inexperienced women or virgins to protect their fragile egos").

To your credit, you also blame some of the elements of modern feminism (sex is about male dominance of women).

But I think it's deeper than that. Before the advent of birth control and a woman's ability to support herself and her children, something had to prevent women from just having sex with whomever she pleased, whenever she wanted. I imagine some degree of "slvt shaming" is built into a woman's emotional DNA.

Pretending that a woman's sexuality is exactly like a man's and that if she has good enough orgasms often enough that she'll want to have sex just like a man and that she'll always want sex with a man if she's "into" him enough lead us all down the wrong path.

Blaming men and society for women's sexuality deprives women of agency and leave their sexual fulfillment in the hands of others.

The more clearly we understand what's really going on, the better we can address the issues.

I'd think the best approach would be to realize that men want sex; it's okay for them to want sex; I want sex; it's okay for me to want sex; what do I need to overcome to make us have more sex?
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post #48 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

I can see lots of reasons why traditionally women would feel less free to have sex. It would make sense then that there would be a large number of women who carry that reluctance into marriage.

What is odd though is that LD men seem roughly as common as LD women, and there hasn't been the same sort of long term social pressure against men having sex. (maybe there are far more LD women? I don't know where to get statistics, but that isn't the impresion I get).

Are LD / sexless marriages just an extension of society's pressures against inappropriate sex, or is there something entirely different going on?

The "dominance" question is interesting. I wonder how many women avoid sex because it is a sign of male dominance / control, and how many men avoid sex because it is how women "manipulate" men? Is it actually the opposite side of traditional societal pressures? This is in many ways the best model for my wife's behavior - but she may be very rare.


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This post and the previous about female sexuality are, as usual, pure gold.

My only concern is where the "blame" is allocated.

You and @techmom (of course), blame men ("all men want inexperienced women or virgins to protect their fragile egos").

To your credit, you also blame some of the elements of modern feminism (sex is about male dominance of women).

But I think it's deeper than that. Before the advent of birth control and a woman's ability to support herself and her children, something had to prevent women from just having sex with whomever she pleased, whenever she wanted. I imagine some degree of "slvt shaming" is built into a woman's emotional DNA.

Pretending that a woman's sexuality is exactly like a man's and that if she has good enough orgasms often enough that she'll want to have sex just like a man and that she'll always want sex with a man if she's "into" him enough lead us all down the wrong path.

Blaming men and society for women's sexuality deprives women of agency and leave their sexual fulfillment in the hands of others.

The more clearly we understand what's really going on, the better we can address the issues.

I'd think the best approach would be to realize that men want sex; it's okay for them to want sex; I want sex; it's okay for me to want sex; what do I need to overcome to make us have more sex?
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post #49 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 12:42 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Social/familial conditioning, the pressure to avoid sex until marriage, affects both men and women but men have testosterone which is a very powerful prohibitory of shame based sex avoidance. Women are slvt shamed, men are not. Even a man labeled as a hound dog does not at all carry the same shame as a woman labeled as a slvt. Early slvt shaming can't be overcome by the appearance of a wedding ring. Slvt shaming also affects how women view men and male sexuality. Slvt shaming is essentially informing a woman that men are pigs and a woman who gives in will never be worthy of a man who respects her. The wedding ring doesn't erase this. Her husband's higher drive just reinforces that men are pigs and only want sex. Slvt shaming affects men because women will not believe sex is anything other than 'he just wants to get laid.'
My ex used to say "men are pigs" ALL THE TIME. I spent years trying to prove otherwise and never succeeded. I think a lot of our marital issues stemmed from that attitude.

As for slvt shaming, if women can't be free to sleep around, figure themselves out sexually, and learn what they want in a sexual relationship, all prior to marriage, then both men AND women are going to have bad sexual relationships in marriage.

As long as we value virginity and chastity in women and shame women who are not, how can men be surprised when women have an avoidant attitude to sex after vows?

From the reverse angle, men who are LD may not know how to handle a woman who doesn't behave like a 'proper' wife? They expect traditional chastity and devalue the woman who isn't. Even if it was him who gave her the sexual experience in the first place. And when you don't respect your spouse, attraction can fade.
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post #50 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 12:48 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
This post and the previous about female sexuality are, as usual, pure gold.

My only concern is where the "blame" is allocated.

You and @techmom (of course), blame men ("all men want inexperienced women or virgins to protect their fragile egos").

First, thank you for the kind compliment. Second, perhaps my wording was clumsy but I did not intend, AT ALL, to implicate all men or even men in general. There are very few men, IMO, who seek virgins. There are a lot more men who are very uncomfortable with the idea that their wife has more sexual experience or more past lovers. While some of that discomfort might be based in being territorial, I think some of it is also based on insecurity. But for the record, I do not think the majority of men seek sexually inexperienced wives, I think most men don't really care.


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To your credit, you also blame some of the elements of modern feminism (sex is about male dominance of women).
Again, I have to tweak your understanding of what I wrote and admit clumsiness as the cause of the misunderstanding.

I do not blame, AT ALL, modern feminism. True feminism gives women the power to be who they wish to be no matter who that person is. True feminism is about breaking any mold women have historically been shoved into and instead urges women to create their own mold for themselves without regard to social feminine ideals.

But this message hasn't always been clearly delivered, nor clearly received. I fought against my own draw toward dominance and submission because I was a liberated woman who did not get off being submissive. But I was wrong. I conclude that there are many other women who fight against their own sexuality because they too are liberated and they too confuse being liberated and being themselves.



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But I think it's deeper than that. Before the advent of birth control and a woman's ability to support herself and her children, something had to prevent women from just having sex with whomever she pleased, whenever she wanted. I imagine some degree of "slvt shaming" is built into a woman's emotional DNA.
In so far as social conditioning is passed from generation to the next...maybe. But I suspect females have always been regarded as a resource. Because men are built bigger and stronger it has been men who view females as a resource to acquire, to keep and to guard. Passing the resources a man might acquire down to the next generation meant the children needed to his and the only way to ensure that was to require a virgin and require she remain chaste except to the man who acquired, kept and guarded her. In other words, for tens of thousands of years the average female was little more than a natural resource that men acquired, kept and guarded. Of course there are some notable exceptions through history where a woman grabbed power and had her way with whomever turned her head, but the vast vast majority never enjoyed the sexual freedoms men have always had, and women are just now getting to experience.



Quote:
Pretending that a woman's sexuality is exactly like a man's and that if she has good enough orgasms often enough that she'll want to have sex just like a man and that she'll always want sex with a man if she's "into" him enough lead us all down the wrong path.

Blaming men and society for women's sexuality deprives women of agency and leave their sexual fulfillment in the hands of others.

The more clearly we understand what's really going on, the better we can address the issues.

I'd think the best approach would be to realize that men want sex; it's okay for them to want sex; I want sex; it's okay for me to want sex; what do I need to overcome to make us have more sex?
I have always stated that women do not experience their sexuality the same way men do.

Yes!! Absolutely everyone should liberate their sexuality!!! Claim it! Own it!

I want sex. It's okay to want sex. Sex is an important part of my life. What needs to happen for our sex life to meet both of our needs?

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


"Vaginas are tricky creatures." ~Lucy999
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post #51 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 01:27 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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My ex used to say "men are pigs" ALL THE TIME. I spent years trying to prove otherwise and never succeeded. I think a lot of our marital issues stemmed from that attitude.

As for slvt shaming, if women can't be free to sleep around, figure themselves out sexually, and learn what they want in a sexual relationship, all prior to marriage, then both men AND women are going to have bad sexual relationships in marriage.

As long as we value virginity and chastity in women and shame women who are not, how can men be surprised when women have an avoidant attitude to sex after vows?

From the reverse angle, men who are LD may not know how to handle a woman who doesn't behave like a 'proper' wife? They expect traditional chastity and devalue the woman who isn't. Even if it was him who gave her the sexual experience in the first place. And when you don't respect your spouse, attraction can fade.
Bravo!

Yes, exactly.

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


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post #52 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 03:56 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post

Men who want virgins, women without sexual experience? This is what that woman is like, this is why she could remain sexually inexperienced. Because shame prevented her from enjoying sexual desire.

So when you slvt shame the woman who has slept around too much, just remember that when she does settle down with a husband, she has already overcome sexual shame.
Curious regarding the bolded since I have seem similar statements made on TAM before by some other women. Is this still commonly thought of? I mean, I don't know any guy who wants a virgin. I do understand in different cultures this may be looked at differently (along with poor treatment of women). I guess this line of thinking seems a bit old schooled to me, but maybe it is still rather prevalent? Now I do know some guys are uncomfortable with women who have more sexual experience then them, but that would be somewhat different.

In terms of slvt shame, where do you draw the line? I have my own personal views on sex, so if I were looking for someone I would be looking for someone who shared similar views. Someone who had a large partner count, engaged in sleeping around, ONS, etc... would not share the same view as myself, so for me that would be a negative. Now granted, I wouldn't use it to call her all kinds of nasty names, I am not one to tell her or anyone else for that matter how to act or not act, but it would undoubtedly impact whether or not I would pursue a relationship with that person (which I know some would say I was slvt shaming the person, something I disagree with).
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post #53 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

I knew one guy in college who was hung up on virginity, but that is the only one. I think you are right that its rare. I also think you are right that a large percentage of men are bothered by women with too much experience (I'm not).

Slvt shaming covers a wide range from people who have strong negative thoughts about women with a lot of experience, to those who just don't find them to be good partners. Its still very common - I remember a comedy recently (watched on an airliner) about a woman horrified that she might have too many partners before she got married.

Again, personally I don't care at all.

For men the pervert / horn-dog / dirt-old-man shaming. Men are expected to be sexually active but within a set of sharp, but poorly defined boundaries.

I think this has the strange effect that if women can avoid being shamed for being too promiscuous it may be more socially acceptable for them to be bi, kinky, or use sex toys.


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Curious regarding the bolded since I have seem similar statements made on TAM before by some other women. Is this still commonly thought of? I mean, I don't know any guy who wants a virgin. I do understand in different cultures this may be looked at differently (along with poor treatment of women). I guess this line of thinking seems a bit old schooled to me, but maybe it is still rather prevalent? Now I do know some guys are uncomfortable with women who have more sexual experience then them, but that would be somewhat different.

In terms of slvt shame, where do you draw the line? I have my own personal views on sex, so if I were looking for someone I would be looking for someone who shared similar views. Someone who had a large partner count, engaged in sleeping around, ONS, etc... would not share the same view as myself, so for me that would be a negative. Now granted, I wouldn't use it to call her all kinds of nasty names, I am not one to tell her or anyone else for that matter how to act or not act, but it would undoubtedly impact whether or not I would pursue a relationship with that person (which I know some would say I was slvt shaming the person, something I disagree with).
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post #54 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 05:22 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

@EllisRedding

I don't know for fact but it seems to me you're perspective is right, there aren't many men seeking virgins.

I don't know where the line is between sexually confident and promiscuous. I rather think numbers are meaningless. What's more important would be a history of decent length relationships in which monogamy was agreed upon. Some ONS here and there are also meaningless because everyone is entitled to having a beer every now and then but someone who drinks nothing but beer....not so much.

@uhtred

It has always bothered me how common it is for men to be uncomfortable if their wife has a higher number because it's not common for a woman to be bothered if her husband has a higher number (except @Maricha ) I think it's part being territorial and part insecurity and neither are reasons I would accept in a partner.

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


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post #55 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 05:32 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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@EllisRedding

I don't know for fact but it seems to me you're perspective is right, there aren't many men seeking virgins.

I don't know where the line is between sexually confident and promiscuous. I rather think numbers are meaningless. What's more important would be a history of decent length relationships in which monogamy was agreed upon. Some ONS here and there are also meaningless because everyone is entitled to having a beer every now and then but someone who drinks nothing but beer....not so much.
.
I think I have always viewed it as you should not hold someone else to a standard that you don't even hold yourself to (the good ole double standard you do see employed by some). I think depending on the person the number actually gives good insight. Let's say someone has a high number (whatever that is, and of course may vary based on age, especially since apparently 65%+ of TAM is over 70yrs old ) but always through monogamous relationships, what this tells me is that this person is possibly a serial dater, has issues staying in LTRs. It may not of course, but does add some pieces to the puzzle, along with other aspects as you get to know the person.
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post #56 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 12:25 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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In so far as social conditioning is passed from generation to the next...maybe. But I suspect females have always been regarded as a resource. Because men are built bigger and stronger it has been men who view females as a resource to acquire, to keep and to guard. Passing the resources a man might acquire down to the next generation meant the children needed to his and the only way to ensure that was to require a virgin and require she remain chaste except to the man who acquired, kept and guarded her. In other words, for tens of thousands of years the average female was little more than a natural resource that men acquired, kept and guarded. Of course there are some notable exceptions through history where a woman grabbed power and had her way with whomever turned her head, but the vast vast majority never enjoyed the sexual freedoms men have always had, and women are just now getting to experience.
Prior to birth control, women's ability to support themselves comfortably and the ability to identify fathers via DNA, a woman having children out of wedlock was a problem for her (and therefore, unrestricted sex was very dangerous for women). It wasn't just a situation of women being seen as a resource to be acquired by men. It wasn't the patriarchy that kept women's sexual behaviors in check, it was in their own self interest.
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post #57 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 12:34 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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It has always bothered me how common it is for men to be uncomfortable if their wife has a higher number because it's not common for a woman to be bothered if her husband has a higher number (except @Maricha ) I think it's part being territorial and part insecurity and neither are reasons I would accept in a partner.
If the problem is that women aren't bothered by men having a higher number and men are bothered by women having a higher number, there would seem to be two solutions;

1) Women should be bothered by a man having a higher number

2) Men shouldn't be bothered by a woman having a higher number

Why is the answer 2)?

Couldn't it be 1)?

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post #58 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 01:15 PM
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Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

I think it might be harder to be a HD woman in a HD/LD marriage than a HD man. Part of it is the differences between the sexes and part of it is the shaming and societal pressures on women that has been discussed. The expectations of the opposite sex that influence feelings of inadequacy and the doubting of one's self worth is the biggest difference I see. After all, all men are horn dogs that care about nothing but sex. Now, we know that couldn't be further from the truth, but the same expectations are not an ubiquitously accepted truth for the fairer sex.


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post #59 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 02:03 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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As for slvt shaming, if women can't be free to sleep around, figure themselves out sexually, and learn what they want in a sexual relationship, all prior to marriage, then both men AND women are going to have bad sexual relationships in marriage.

As long as we value virginity and chastity in women and shame women who are not, how can men be surprised when women have an avoidant attitude to sex after vows?
I'm guessing women would have to get that additional experience via casual sex.

But what if women don't get as much out of casual sex as men?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ex-should-they

"A recently published article on the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality examines the issue of casual, or recreational sex, and finds that for both men and women, casual sex improves their feelings of sexual satisfaction. But, for men and not for women, recreational sex improves their overall feelings of happiness and sexual self-esteem. Bold mine.

Do men and women differ in their responses to casual sex? Yes. Do we understand these differences fully, or their causes? No. Are the differences universal and categorical? No. All men do not enjoy casual sex, though this might be true for many of them. Nor are all women harmed by casual sex, or turned off by it, though again, this might be true for many women."

Now, I'm not one to say that a single study proves anything, but before we encourage women to fully "experience their sexuality", perhaps we should ask the question.

Again, let's consider the possibility that male and female sexuality may not be exactly the same.

Edited to add: Many men (80%?) don't really have the opportunity to "sleep around and figure themselves out sexually" either and we're not too worried about them.
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post #60 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 02:04 PM
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Re: Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD

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If the problem is that women aren't bothered by men having a higher number and men are bothered by women having a higher number, there would seem to be two solutions;

1) Women should be bothered by a man having a higher number

2) Men shouldn't be bothered by a woman having a higher number

Why is the answer 2)?

Couldn't it be 1)?

No, it can't be 1.

The answer is 2 unless you can explain what meaning number of sexual partners has without slvt shaming or being territorial.

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry


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