Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing - Page 7 - Talk About Marriage
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post #91 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 11:33 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
I wonder if this is what resonates with me about this situation. It does not seem like love. Without love, no intimacy exists. It is just quid pro quo.



Physical touch if very much NOT my love language. It very much is my husband's. When he was sitting this morning and I ran my hands over his chest and head it was to make him feel good. The thing *I* got out of it was *his* vocalization of pleasure. THAT is intimacy. The action is not relevant.


Sure. You didn't do that just so that your husband would meet your love language. You did it without any expectation of a return. That's how it should work. You're both freely and actively meeting each other's needs. There's no mismatch in the flow back and forth. Nobody feels the other's needs are unrealistic, gross, or painful emotionally/physically to meet. Nobody accepts significantly more than give.

In a mismatch, the more giving partner gives and gives until they pop their head up from all that giving and realize that it's been quite some time since they received. Now they may have received a host of gifts, but it's not the gift they needed. Their partner loves them, but they just cannot deliver on the one thing they really need. It may be selfishness, cluelessness, or the perception of personal harm, but it isn't necessarily a lack of love.

This is where covert contracts come from. If I just try harder, do this, do that, be a perfect spouse, then maybe they will want to meet my need. Doesn't work that way.

I genuinely think that sex forces my wife to confront her personal demons about her body image issues. And this causes her pain. Enough pain that she would rather avoid it despite actually enjoying sex. Until her drive overpowers it. Until she perceives that she's risking the relationship. Until she has a good day in terms of self-confidence.

I think that badsanta's wife is a mix of selfish and clueless. He's told her a million times in a million ways that he needs sex. She disagrees and isn't willing find a workable compromise. Doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It just means she's entrenched on this issue.




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post #92 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 11:55 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

..............You don't always get what you Waaaant!..............................

No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

Rolling Stones -

.................................................. .................................................. .

And you sometimes get what you deserve.....sometimes............the warm fold, or the knuckles.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #93 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Originally Posted by rich84 View Post
I think that badsanta's wife is a mix of selfish and clueless. He's told her a million times in a million ways that he needs sex. She disagrees and isn't willing find a workable compromise. Doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It just means she's entrenched on this issue.
THIS is a good point, but I have moved past that, and here is where we are:

I do NOT necessarily need sex, but I do need for her to accept the desire I have for her. Accepting my desire just means her appreciating that I find her very attractive and allowing my desire to be something positive in our relationship. Easier said than done! But it has been happening.

While my wife does not exactly compromise herself so to say, she has now been willing to work as a couple so that we can help accept and appreciate our differences just the way they are. The key ingredients seem to be communication, patience, and appreciating each other's intent.

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post #94 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 07:46 PM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

THE CAROUSEL

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Originally Posted by badsanta View Post
Like you just commented, she often just accuses me often of wanting her for nothing more than sex and just trying to use her! To me this comment from her hurts. But I get over it, keep my chin up, and continue to love her!
You're just going round and round in circles to little end.

If you are sexually attentive you should feel no shame in wanting to use your sexual partner.

Why aren't you often telling your wife, that you want to use her for sex?

That said often doesn't mean labouring the point.

How about changing tack.


IN SICKNESS

Her Turn

W: You just want me for sex./?

M: No I don't, you're so much more to me than... blah, blah, blah... *

W: You're just using me for sex./?

M: No I'm not, I love you and connect with you... blah, blah, blah... *

W: All you want me for is sex./?

M: No I don't, I just want to share positive... blah, blah, blah... *

* Ugh.


AND HEALTH

Her Turn

W: You just want me for sex./?

M: Absolutely!*

W: You're just using me for sex./?

M: Yes.*

W: All you want me for is sex./?

M: Yes.*

* All without further explanation or caveat, because you are making it explicit that you desire her.

Your Turn

M: I want you for sex.

M: I want to use you for sex.

M: I really want you.

M: I really want to use you.

Mix It Up

M: You just want me for sex.

M: You're just using me for sex.

M: All you want me for is sex.

More

W: If you weren't with me, you'd be having/wanting sex with someone else./?

M: Of course I would. *

* Don't tap dance, don't try to reassure her (since your desire is implicit in your choices), just use the simple matter of fact truth, because the same can apply to her as well. If you want to be treated credibly, you need to be credible.


DO A TWIRL

Her: "You just want to use me for sex!/?"

Him: That's right, I do!"

Her: ...Oooh he still thinks I'm a star, do a twirl...


UGH

Her: "You just want to use me for sex!/?"

Him: No I don't, you are so much more to me than that. I want you to understand that I love you. I want you to understand that, I want to connect with you, I want... blah, blah, ****king blah... !"

Her: ...Ugh, I guess he still wants sex. Yet there's no way he lusts for me! I may as well be a hole in the wall, since I seem to be everything other than luscious...


CLOSING

Quote:
Originally Posted by badsanta View Post
I do NOT necessarily need sex, but I do need for her to accept the desire I have for her. Accepting my desire just means her appreciating that I find her very attractive and allowing my desire to be something positive in our relationship. Easier said than done! But it has been happening.
If you're not a selfish lover and you do want her to accept your desire for her! Try admitting it by telling her you do want to use her for sex. Instead of telling her that you don't want to use her for sex.

Last edited by Personal; 11-10-2016 at 10:23 PM.
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post #95 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-10-2016, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Originally Posted by Personal View Post
You're just going round and round in circles to little end.

If you are sexually attentive you should feel no shame in wanting to use your sexual partner.

Why aren't you often telling your wife, that you want to use her for sex?
I do agree that it feel like I go round and round in circles.

I do NOT feel like I want to use my wife for sex, as I am very talented and creative to handle that all by myself. The reason I desire my wife is because I want to connect with her on both an emotional and physical level. OK, slamming the breaks for a moment on my squeaky merry go round.... sht this thing is hard to slow down .... .... bear with me ..... ..... .... .... (FCK) ...... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... (scraping sounds...................... grinding to a halt sound finally).

OK, I got it to stop for just a moment before I jump back on and spin it back up into the disturbed sexual reality in which I live. Regardless of how I feel, I do know when I have sex with my wife that she often feels it is a need I have and that I compel her to accommodate that. While she will respond nicely and enjoy these moments together, she simply does not share my level of motivation for sex. I've never stopped and considered how she may react if I indicated that I wanted to "use her!" She may like that b/c it will validate how she often feels, and get the impression that I am finally coming to terms with how she views my sexuality. If done playfully and with the correct intent, this may be good advice.... If not and she explodes, I'm all too familiar with that and know exactly how to handle that. So before I hop back on and start going again, I'll kick to spin myself in the opposite way and see what happens....

Cheers,
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post #96 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 01:49 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Personal View Post
THE CAROUSEL





If you are sexually attentive you should feel no shame in wanting to use your sexual partner.
^^^The voice of reason in a simple sentence Personal.

'Using' is such an emotive word deliberately designed to induce guilt in the context of this thread. Of course it is possible to be OK/thrilled with being used and using with the caveat that holistically everything else is healthy within the relationship. I think BS has been groomed to feel ashamed of wanting to have lots of sex and getting aroused by his wife's body, almost like it's a disability. .

The original question was 'How to avoid nonsexual intimacy?'. But I think the answer is you don't and shouldn't. A better question should be 'How can my wife learn to enjoy by my arousal - even when we don't have sex?'. (Answer:therapy)

Yesterday I was chopping onions in the kitchen, my husband came up behind me and hugged me - I could feel his erection, I got a rush of 'love', I carried on with the cooking. It wasn't a threat - it didn't mean we had to have sex. It was just a pleasant affirmation that all is well. I like to think this is normal.
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post #97 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 03:43 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

How to avoid nonsexual intimacy?

This any good?




Someone once emailed this to me and it made me giggle so much I kept the image because I had an inkling it would come in useful. Its original purpose if for women to masturbate whilst simultaneously shaving their legs. Genius!

This would make a perfect gift for Mrs Santa this Christmas, you just have to angle it right on her back and then just leave her to it. Keep checking on her and adjust the angle as necessary. A useful labour saving device whilst you get on with other things. Problem solved?



(I am just being a little bit cheeky here)

Last edited by peacem; 11-11-2016 at 04:04 AM.
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post #98 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 04:42 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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I'll answer this question in her words...

When I almost died once she was confronted with the idea of living the rest of her life without me. She was surprised that she was not scared by this possibility because I have supported her career to the point that she could be completely independent from me rather easily. Having experienced that, she was happy when I recovered and that we get to continue loving one another. So she stays married to me because she wants to and not because she needs to. THAT for her is something that she says is wonderful to feel in a marriage.

Badsanta
Well ****. That is freaking positive. Something to work with here?
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post #99 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 04:43 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nail View Post
If, "You keep trying to stick your expectations into an incorrect reality." isn't a double entendre, it should be.

Intimacy is a shared vulnerability that builds trust. It is the environment were love can grow. It is not love. When vulnerability is responded to with assault it does not build trust, without trust love dies.
Yes. Almost perfect. I would say that the only condition that can engender that vulnerability is love.
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post #100 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 04:47 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

Too tired to receive a massage last night, but still stayed up an hour after me reading. It's 3:30 and I'm not in bed because she will want morning sex (after an hour of massage) this morning so she can tick sex off her to do list for the week.
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post #101 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nail View Post
Too tired to receive a massage last night, but still stayed up an hour after me reading. It's 3:30 and I'm not in bed because she will want morning sex (after an hour of massage) this morning so she can tick sex off her to do list for the week.
Wow on the hour massage. Does she at least reciprocate? I think you should be "too tired" this morning for morning sex!
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post #102 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 07:11 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Originally Posted by rich84 View Post
Sure. You didn't do that just so that your husband would meet your love language. You did it without any expectation of a return. That's how it should work. You're both freely and actively meeting each other's needs. There's no mismatch in the flow back and forth. Nobody feels the other's needs are unrealistic, gross, or painful emotionally/physically to meet. Nobody accepts significantly more than give.

In a mismatch, the more giving partner gives and gives until they pop their head up from all that giving and realize that it's been quite some time since they received. Now they may have received a host of gifts, but it's not the gift they needed. Their partner loves them, but they just cannot deliver on the one thing they really need. It may be selfishness, cluelessness, or the perception of personal harm, but it isn't necessarily a lack of love.

This is where covert contracts come from. If I just try harder, do this, do that, be a perfect spouse, then maybe they will want to meet my need. Doesn't work that way.

I genuinely think that sex forces my wife to confront her personal demons about her body image issues. And this causes her pain. Enough pain that she would rather avoid it despite actually enjoying sex. Until her drive overpowers it. Until she perceives that she's risking the relationship. Until she has a good day in terms of self-confidence.

I think that badsanta's wife is a mix of selfish and clueless. He's told her a million times in a million ways that he needs sex. She disagrees and isn't willing find a workable compromise. Doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It just means she's entrenched on this issue.




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Yes. What to do with this information?
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post #103 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 10:58 AM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Yes. What to do with this information?


Destabilization vs. acceptance. He's working at the latter.


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post #104 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-11-2016, 03:57 PM
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Destabilization vs. acceptance. He's working at the latter.


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Just strikes me as the wrong choice.
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post #105 of 115 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Avoiding nonsexual intimacy - because it is too arousing

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Originally Posted by rich84 View Post
I think that badsanta's wife is a mix of selfish and clueless. He's told her a million times in a million ways that he needs sex. She disagrees and isn't willing find a workable compromise. Doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It just means she's entrenched on this issue.
She has been willing to compromise, but I was too often unwilling to recognize or accept her offers as I saw them as duty sex. I used to wait for a moment when she would be receptive, which in turn put too much pressure on her to enjoy it when I initiated. Once I learned to back off, let her enjoy pleasing me, and wait until she asked for things, we have been working towards a much healthier marriage.


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Yes. What to do with this information?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich84 View Post
Destabilization vs. acceptance. He's working at the latter
Ultimately "acceptance" is the answer in almost every marriage in my opinion, but not in the form of accepting the problems, but instead learning to accept each other in ways that can be appreciated and enjoyed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
Just strikes me as the wrong choice.
Right or wrong, if it means I am about to learn something the hard way, that is very familiar territory for me. I sometimes can't win for loosing... ,but I know optimistic persistence usually pays off in the long run.

My wife would roll her eyes and tell TAM:



But I would give you a huge smile, point to my undeniable results, and say:



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