The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life. - Page 6 - Talk About Marriage
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post #76 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

What do you consider "putting ones foot down"? Other than threatening to leave, or withholding sex for her (which she doesn't care about), what do you suggest?

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That would require that he put his foot down, which he has been singularly unwilling to do.
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post #77 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

I think its easy for people to project their own feelings onto others. I know I did with my wife: I physically enjoyed sex, and so wanted lots of it. I assumed that if she physically enjoyed sex, she would want lots of it, it simply never occurred to me that that might not be the case.

The resentment of feeling you have to have sex you don't want, the resentment of being denied what you think of as a "normal" sex life combine to make a mismatch really bad for a marriage. I wish this sort of issue was more openly discussed for young people - it would save a lot of misery. HD, LD, ND are all fine, but compatibility is critical.


Do you feel desire for non-sexual physical closeness? Hugs, kisses etc?


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Smiling. It's complicated.

Certainly, it's possible to physically enjoy the literal moment (i.e., orgasm) and not want sex -- or even think about it once it's over. It's not important. It's definitely not a need. It happens on occasion and that's about it. And I absolutely would never feel that what others enjoy is wrong (well, as long as it's legal) but I admit I don't understand it -- no matter how much I try to. It just doesn't make sense to me. A totally foreign concept.

What I really wish is that people like me understood how they truly feel about sex before marriage and then we could find someone like ourselves who preferred being sexless (I know they're out there). But almost always we end up marrying some HD person and sex becomes a battleground. Maybe, like me, they think they can adjust but sooner or later realize they were wrong. And there's the guilt that can go with the resentment at having to perform and not wanting to. Dreading it more times than not. Shaking my head.

I'm familiar with your story and I'm sorry it happened to you and all the others on TAM with similar stories. In a better world there would be no sexual mismatches. I rarely say life's unfair (because what would be the point -- we know that) but, yes, it certainly is.
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post #78 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:12 AM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

The same thing I have suggested from the very first time you posted of your situation.

Stop being selfless with someone who is selfish. Stop meeting her needs. Find other things that are mutually fulfilling and invest your time in those.

Richard, I have found myself in a similar situation when my wife becomes comfortable. We normally have to revisit it a couple of times per year. She gets comfortable, sex and intimacy dwindles, and I stop meeting her needs. It normally takes one week of this for her to lose her crap. She does not see the hypocrisy, and I am done pointing it out to her, but she can expect me to go weeks without sexual intimacy, yet can't go a week when I withdraw my providing for her EN's.

Your wife has no reason to change, to make more effort, because you are allowing her to be comfortable in the face of your own discomfort. You are enabling her; pure and simple. Until you accept that AND do something about it, nothing will change.

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What do you consider "putting ones foot down"? Other than threatening to leave, or withholding sex for her (which she doesn't care about), what do you suggest?

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #79 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:26 AM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
The same thing I have suggested from the very first time you posted of your situation.

Stop being selfless with someone who is selfish. Stop meeting her needs. Find other things that are mutually fulfilling and invest your time in those.

Richard, I have found myself in a similar situation when my wife becomes comfortable. We normally have to revisit it a couple of times per year. She gets comfortable, sex and intimacy dwindles, and I stop meeting her needs. It normally takes one week of this for her to lose her crap. She does not see the hypocrisy, and I am done pointing it out to her, but she can expect me to go weeks without sexual intimacy, yet can't go a week when I withdraw my providing for her EN's.

Your wife has no reason to change, to make more effort, because you are allowing her to be comfortable in the face of your own discomfort. You are enabling her; pure and simple. Until you accept that AND do something about it, nothing will change.
This is what i was trying to say a few pages back. I think farsidejunky said it better.
Completely agree.
Why would she change, when she gets everything she wants?

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I don't know if it will be even possible for you to (literally speaking) cool your house down, given your area and climate. If not, you might have do that figuratively, and make yourself scarce when she would normally be sexy nightie-ing around the house. If it was for you, she will change her timing.

Normally, i'd advise you to just ask her. but, in your case i think you will have to observe her instead.

Forget enough to get over it, remember enough so it doesn't happen again.
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post #80 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

I understand, but not sure how to apply. The root issues is that she doesn't want sex, or at least enjoys sex only rarely and a very limited set of activities. I can get into a situation where she does sexual things she doesn't like in return for me being nice to her in various ways, but that feels very transactional.

I also enjoy making her happy. Avoiding doing nice things for her until she "agrees" to have sex, just feels sort of mean.

She won't pickup hints. There have been times I've been less affectionate and she eventually asks why. When you keep in mind that she thinks our sex life is normal and good, I'm stuck with:

"I've stopped getting you flowers and giving you back rubs because you won't give me blowjobs". I just don't see any way that doesn't come across really badly.

(for "blowjobs", substitute any other sexual activity that she doesn't want to do).

She doesn't like doing these things, and nothing I can do will make her enjoy it. I don't think there is a way to "fix" this. The LD / ND people who have been generous enough to post here can probably comment on how they would feel.


Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the advice and suggestions. I just think its really difficult for people with normal sexual desire to understand how it feels to have no desire.



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This is what i was trying to say a few pages back. I think farsidejunky said it better.
Completely agree.
Why would she change, when she gets everything she wants?
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post #81 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

New data. Last night I did a bunch of nice things for my wife in bed, but let her know that I really wasn't interested in her reciprocating. I said I was happy to please her, but trying to give me HJs was just getting her frustrated since I was so slow, and didn't do much for me. (I wasn't trying to be passive-aggressive, I just really didn't feel like another HJ).

She responded by trying to do much more for me including some oral (something that is normally extremely rare). I honestly told her that she didn't need to do that, that I knew she hated it - but this time she said she didn't mind.


My best read on this is that its "control" again. She had decided that we were going to have sex, and that part of that was that I should get an O. Having decided that, she was happy to do whatever it took.


I'm waiting to see what happens next. Its possible that she has found that this and other things are a way to get me an O more easily (she is very "goal" driven in sex). That could be nice. OTOH, its quite possible that next time I'll get a "you only like things that I dislike" complaint.

I have BTW suggested a wide range of things I would enjoy in bed, but she normally doesn't want to do those either.
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post #82 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:55 AM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I think its easy for people to project their own feelings onto others. I know I did with my wife: I physically enjoyed sex, and so wanted lots of it. I assumed that if she physically enjoyed sex, she would want lots of it, it simply never occurred to me that that might not be the case.

The resentment of feeling you have to have sex you don't want, the resentment of being denied what you think of as a "normal" sex life combine to make a mismatch really bad for a marriage. I wish this sort of issue was more openly discussed for young people - it would save a lot of misery. HD, LD, ND are all fine, but compatibility is critical.


Do you feel desire for non-sexual physical closeness? Hugs, kisses etc?
No, I didn't really desire hugs or kisses although I dealt with that much better than I did sex.

Adding to the problem, my husband felt he had won the lottery. I was his ultimate fantasy from the moment we met until he died (didn't stop him from cheating but that's another story) so I felt guilty about that. He wasn't my ultimate fantasy (only because I never had one) but he was a gorgeous man for sure. That was wasted on me and I felt guilty about that as well. However, none of my guilt prompted me to do anything about my issues because I felt he was the problem -- not me.

In my defense, I didn't realize until I came to TAM just how far I am from the norm. I grew up in a very religious home and my extended family and friends were exactly the same. Ultra-conservative time and place. And I married young. But the truth is that I just didn't see why sex was a big deal and why anyone would really care about something that seemed ridiculous to me. Now that it's too late I get it. And I did apologize to my ex-husband not long before he died and told him I wished I had been a better wife (his response was that I was a wonderful wife -- which isn't true although I certainly tried, but failed). Shaking my head.
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post #83 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

You were a good wife because you tried to make him happy, even though you didn't enjoy things yourself.

Your feelings about sex do seem to mirror my wife's thoughts - she also doesn't see sex as a big deal. Seems legitimately perplexed that it matters to me. (her comment when angry at me about it that I was like a kid who just wanted dessert all the time). The one big difference is that she really enjoys non-sexual touch and intimacy.

Its difficult to know what the norm really is. People who post about sexual issues on TAM are almost by definition people who care about sex. There may be many people who feel the way that you do.

I really appreciate your perspective on this.




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No, I didn't really desire hugs or kisses although I dealt with that much better than I did sex.

Adding to the problem, my husband felt he had won the lottery. I was his ultimate fantasy from the moment we met until he died (didn't stop him from cheating but that's another story) so I felt guilty about that. He wasn't my ultimate fantasy (only because I never had one) but he was a gorgeous man for sure. That was wasted on me and I felt guilty about that as well. However, none of my guilt prompted me to do anything about my issues because I felt he was the problem -- not me.

In my defense, I didn't realize until I came to TAM just how far I am from the norm. I grew up in a very religious home and my extended family and friends were exactly the same. Ultra-conservative time and place. And I married young. But the truth is that I just didn't see why sex was a big deal and why anyone would really care about something that seemed ridiculous to me. Now that it's too late I get it. And I did apologize to my ex-husband not long before he died and told him I wished I had been a better wife (his response was that I was a wonderful wife -- which isn't true although I certainly tried, but failed). Shaking my head.
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post #84 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:18 PM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

As far as being willing -- I was always willing to do whatever it was he wanted but I never wanted to. My emotions were not in it. Not once during those decades did I initiate. That's another foreign concept I can't grasp.

I did want him to be happy. I just wished it didn't involve sex. I often told him he should not have been so caught up in the visual when it came to me because he would always be disappointed. He disagreed. We were, in my opinion, much better off as friends and once the bitterness of the divorce was over that's what we became. I loved him but not the way I should have. And I still miss him.
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post #85 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:21 PM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

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You were a good wife because you tried to make him happy, even though you didn't enjoy things yourself.

Your feelings about sex do seem to mirror my wife's thoughts - she also doesn't see sex as a big deal. Seems legitimately perplexed that it matters to me. (her comment when angry at me about it that I was like a kid who just wanted dessert all the time). The one big difference is that she really enjoys non-sexual touch and intimacy.

Its difficult to know what the norm really is. People who post about sexual issues on TAM are almost by definition people who care about sex. There may be many people who feel the way that you do.

I really appreciate your perspective on this.
Thanks, Richard. I did a lot of damage and it's not easy to live with it. He did say before he died that I had nothing to apologize for but I know better.
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post #86 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:43 PM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

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Thanks, Richard. I did a lot of damage and it's not easy to live with it. He did say before he died that I had nothing to apologize for but I know better.
My wife made an apology of sorts on her deathbed but she never gave me the why of it. So alike and yet so different.

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post #87 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:44 PM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

Meant to say this before and forgot. On paper we were the perfect couple. Our friends referred to us as Ken and Barbie (I didn't especially like being Barbie but being Ken amused him). The shock waves among family and friends when we divorced were huge. I had people tell me I was totally crazy for divorcing him. But I couldn't carry the illusion of the perfect couple any longer. I had kept his secret when I caught him cheating 15 years into our marriage. I refused to do that the last time. He didn't want the divorce but I knew he would remarry five minutes after the final decree was signed and he did. But he loved me until he died and I knew it. We just didn't work.
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post #88 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

This sounds so familiar and so very sad.

Its not your fault you didn't have the desire he wanted / needed. There is no way you could have understood how he felt, and you did the best you could do. You could physically do what he wanted, but you could not have the desire that he really needed.

Its not his fault that he couldn't enjoy love without sex. He could not have understood how you felt. He cheated to try to get the thing that was missing from his life - something meaningless to you, and inseparable from love to him.

Having your friends think you have a wonderful life makes it worse. We are also the perfect couple. So friendly and affectionate (in a non-sexual way) in public. We go on romantic trips, enjoy our time together. No one could imagine that on our 25th anniversary, staying in an ancient palace on the grand canal in Venice, my wife spend the evening reading, and I spent it playing computer games.

I wonder how many couples are like this.






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Meant to say this before and forgot. On paper we were the perfect couple. Our friends referred to us as Ken and Barbie (I didn't especially like being Barbie but being Ken amused him). The shock waves among family and friends when we divorced were huge. I had people tell me I was totally crazy for divorcing him. But I couldn't carry the illusion of the perfect couple any longer. I had kept his secret when I caught him cheating 15 years into our marriage. I refused to do that the last time. He didn't want the divorce but I knew he would remarry five minutes after the final decree was signed and he did. But he loved me until he died and I knew it. We just didn't work.
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post #89 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 01:06 PM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

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This sounds so familiar and so very sad.

Its not your fault you didn't have the desire he wanted / needed. There is no way you could have understood how he felt, and you did the best you could do. You could physically do what he wanted, but you could not have the desire that he really needed.

Its not his fault that he couldn't enjoy love without sex. He could not have understood how you felt. He cheated to try to get the thing that was missing from his life - something meaningless to you, and inseparable from love to him.

Having your friends think you have a wonderful life makes it worse. We are also the perfect couple. So friendly and affectionate (in a non-sexual way) in public. We go on romantic trips, enjoy our time together. No one could imagine that on our 25th anniversary, staying in an ancient palace on the grand canal in Venice, my wife spend the evening reading, and I spent it playing computer games.

I wonder how many couples are like this.
Yes, I wish very much it could have been different.

I majored in European history and always loved going to Europe as often as I could. He didn't mind going but it wasn't his first choice. He did it for me. His first choice was Hawaii, which I had no interest in, and so I did that for him. We spent many evenings over the decades in romantic, far-away places doing exactly the same as you and your wife. I would be reading. He would be playing solitaire on the computer. What a waste.
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post #90 of 195 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 01:19 PM
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Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.

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I understand, but not sure how to apply. The root issues is that she doesn't want sex, or at least enjoys sex only rarely and a very limited set of activities. I can get into a situation where she does sexual things she doesn't like in return for me being nice to her in various ways, but that feels very transactional.

I also enjoy making her happy. Avoiding doing nice things for her until she "agrees" to have sex, just feels sort of mean.

She won't pickup hints. There have been times I've been less affectionate and she eventually asks why. When you keep in mind that she thinks our sex life is normal and good, I'm stuck with:

"I've stopped getting you flowers and giving you back rubs because you won't give me blowjobs". I just don't see any way that doesn't come across really badly.

(for "blowjobs", substitute any other sexual activity that she doesn't want to do).

She doesn't like doing these things, and nothing I can do will make her enjoy it. I don't think there is a way to "fix" this. The LD / ND people who have been generous enough to post here can probably comment on how they would feel.


Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the advice and suggestions. I just think its really difficult for people with normal sexual desire to understand how it feels to have no desire.
Look... first you're framing this wrong. You don't want "sex", you don't want "blow jobs", you don't want "anal". You want a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" with your wife. NEVER again frame it as "sex" because what you will get back is "all you want is sex!"

Second, explain that a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" is important to the relationship... not to YOU.

Third, explain that a monogamous relationship with a spouse goes hand-in-hand with "forsaking all others". You can't ask for one of you don't provide the other.

Finally, don't look at these as trades. Your ability to provide for her needs (attention, moral support, non-sexual intimacy) is greatly diminished by not having your need for a "fulfilling intimate sexual relationship" with her. You can't have a one-way street.

But after all this, what do you do? If you're not ready yo (a) divorce, (b) open the marriage or (c) continue fighting this battle then you may as well just give up.
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