Betrayed by Masturbation? - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

@badsanta I've never rejected any of her advances to please me. I will suggest her pleasing me directly, but if she says no, then i don't worry about it. I know there are certain things she doesn't like to do and I don't dwell on those things. Those certain things she doesn't like to do but she will do when I ask, but i ask infrequently knowing she doesn't like it.

Part of all of me wanting to improve our sex life is the fact that the kids are getting to the point of being out of the house. My daughter has less than 4 years, but she will start to really lead her own life. My youngest is still 8 years away, but in the grand scheme of things, that's not all that long and will go fast. My goal is two fold. I don't want her and I to look at each other when the kids are grown and decide we don't want to do this any more. I want to strengthen our bond now not later. I've seen too many friends parents part the minute the kids were grown. Additionally, I'm sure it may sound odd, but I want us to be lovers. Yes, i'm the husband and father, and we have sex like a husband does, but I want to move beyond that. I want to move to another level of intimacy with her. I want her to be able to cut loose in the bedroom with me. I want to know her as intimately as she knows herself. I want to pleasure her in ways she didn't even know she liked. I want her to be able to give herself up to her lover so to speak. (probably a tangent, but its related to what i've been working on for years, and is the reason behind the original post).
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 10:35 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 10:43 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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Originally Posted by doverfun View Post
@badsanta I've never rejected any of her advances to please me. I will suggest her pleasing me directly, but if she says no, then i don't worry about it. I know there are certain things she doesn't like to do and I don't dwell on those things. Those certain things she doesn't like to do but she will do when I ask, but i ask infrequently knowing she doesn't like it.

Part of all of me wanting to improve our sex life is the fact that the kids are getting to the point of being out of the house. My daughter has less than 4 years, but she will start to really lead her own life. My youngest is still 8 years away, but in the grand scheme of things, that's not all that long and will go fast. My goal is two fold. I don't want her and I to look at each other when the kids are grown and decide we don't want to do this any more. I want to strengthen our bond now not later. I've seen too many friends parents part the minute the kids were grown. Additionally, I'm sure it may sound odd, but I want us to be lovers. Yes, i'm the husband and father, and we have sex like a husband does, but I want to move beyond that. I want to move to another level of intimacy with her. I want her to be able to cut loose in the bedroom with me. I want to know her as intimately as she knows herself. I want to pleasure her in ways she didn't even know she liked. I want her to be able to give herself up to her lover so to speak. (probably a tangent, but its related to what i've been working on for years, and is the reason behind the original post).
Have you TOLD her any of this? Have you TOLD her what *your* "goal" is?

And, if so, is she agreeable to that "goal" of yours?

Last edited by Vega; 02-27-2017 at 10:59 AM.
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 10:53 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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@badsanta I've never rejected any of her advances to please me. I will suggest her pleasing me directly, but if she says no, then i don't worry about it. I know there are certain things she doesn't like to do and I don't dwell on those things. Those certain things she doesn't like to do but she will do when I ask, but i ask infrequently knowing she doesn't like it.

If you suggest her pleasing you, she may say no, but if you ask then she will do it. You do realize that makes no sense!

OK, I assuming you meant perhaps she does not like giving you BJ's during foreplay when she initiates sex as she wants you inside her and not in her mouth. But she is willing to give you BJs during moments she does not want sex. Meanwhile you reject her by hesitating to ask and not allowing her to please you during those moments. Do you go and masturbate instead? (I admit that is a loaded question and not meant to attack you, but instead meant to help you reflect on how there are moments where she may indeed enjoy giving you a BJ, but your self consciousness is not allowing you to ask!)
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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 10:54 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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Have you TOLD her any of this? Have you TOLD her what *your* "goal" is?

And, if so, is she agreeable to that "goal" of yours?
Good point!
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

@Vega I have certainly communicated my goals to her, and per her response she wants to do the same thing. Of course, I communicated those goals to her over 5 years ago to no avail. I've continued to communicate those goals with no results over those last 5 years.

@badsanta Honestly, in the last few years, I don't remember a time when has turned me down for sex. I can also say, during those times, I'm not sure she's ever actually initiated sex. bj's are always part of regular sex foreplay. During the 6 week desert run, I had her do a handjob/lingam for first time ever. We've done a few times since. She didn't like it at first, but she has warmed up to the task over these last few weeks. There's never a time when i get satisfied that she doesn't get satisfied. She gets oral when no regular sex.

@Ursula Our communication in general is good. With sex, communication hasn't been good. She always clams up, looks pissed I brought it and has terse answers. I ask her what she likes, how she likes it, does she want to try something new, etc. All the same response. Now, over the last 2 months communication has improved greatly, and we have the results to show for it. Part of the issue after surgery was that, after seeing her on Friday nights, I flat said we are going to have more sex, and she's responded positively. Of course, only now I find out the whole story.
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 11:28 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

After I got off active duty, I met a beautiful Red head.

Sex with her was great "for me". She was really anxious to have sex all the time, but she never talked about it. She would not say "anything" before, during or after" sex. It was a topic that she could not talk about.

I never knew if she enjoyed it as much as I did. I knew that she masturbated often [I caught her many times, but never said anything].

After a while, I softly asked her about this and her face turned redder than her hair.

She was basically, a passionate lady, but mute. Some men would say this is the optimum women. A women who loved sex and never complained about anything.

I broke up with her. Why?

I never knew if she enjoyed sex as much as me. Or "anything" with me. Now, looking back, since she always wanted sex she must have enjoyed it. I was young then. What did I know?

I loved being intimate with her. We pounded that mattress to dust. However, I needed to bounce all my ideas against hers. She never pounded back. I guess I got bored. Shame....

Likely....I intimidated her. Too powerful emotions... from my end.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 11:33 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

THis is what hit me about your post.

' I've always told her that I didn't feel I would ever be that man for her. She just could never let go with me. She always seems to be holding back. With seeing her on those recent Friday nights, I knew there was more in her, but sober, I was never going to turn her on so she would let go. I told her that she needed to find someone else to let go with.'

Her husband, (apparently a church goer as well), tells her to find someone else? To commit adultery? What were you thinking? Telling her that you would never be the man for her? You are married, committed and you say things like this? Even if you didnt really mean it words are so important. This is something that we must never say to our spouse, and I think you need to apologise for that.

As for the masturbation thing, work with/through it. She isn't looking at porn which is a blessing. It sounds as if you have a good sex life so be thankful, and let her be who she is.
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 11:35 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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@Vega I have certainly communicated my goals to her, and per her response she wants to do the same thing. Of course, I communicated those goals to her over 5 years ago to no avail. I've continued to communicate those goals with no results over those last 5 years.

@badsanta Honestly, in the last few years, I don't remember a time when has turned me down for sex. I can also say, during those times, I'm not sure she's ever actually initiated sex. bj's are always part of regular sex foreplay. During the 6 week desert run, I had her do a handjob/lingam for first time ever. We've done a few times since. She didn't like it at first, but she has warmed up to the task over these last few weeks. There's never a time when i get satisfied that she doesn't get satisfied. She gets oral when no regular sex.

@Ursula Our communication in general is good. With sex, communication hasn't been good. She always clams up, looks pissed I brought it and has terse answers. I ask her what she likes, how she likes it, does she want to try something new, etc. All the same response. Now, over the last 2 months communication has improved greatly, and we have the results to show for it. Part of the issue after surgery was that, after seeing her on Friday nights, I flat said we are going to have more sex, and she's responded positively. Of course, only now I find out the whole story.
I'm sorry OP, but you seem to be all over the map about this situation.

On one hand, you talk about how there have been "no results". In the next breath, you say that there HAVE been 'results'. So...which is it?

Look at the words you’re using to describe this situation: “Confess”…”hide”…”betray”…”secrecy”…”lie”. All of those words imply “wrongdoing” on her part. Frankly, you sound more like her judge than her husband.

If you know anything about human sexuality, then the fact that she masturbates should be no surprise. Yet, you're treating this "new knowledge" as something that's almost SHOCKING for you, and you're taking this as a personal affront to you. You're letting your ego get the better of you. That's never a good thing.
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 11:38 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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Now, looking back, since she always wanted sex she must have enjoyed it.
Umm...you sure about that?
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 11:58 AM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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There's never a time when i get satisfied that she doesn't get satisfied.
Perhaps you see that as a positive point, but I see that as one of the likely source of your problems.

In a healthy relationship there should be times where your wife will tell you just to enjoy yourself and to not worry about her because she is unable to enjoy herself sexually in that moment. If your wife can not or does not tell you that, one of the following things are happening:

#1 You may be rejecting her and only allowing her to please you during the moments she is also sexually receptive AND you are wanting sex.

#2 You may be forcing her to enjoy herself so that you do not feel guilty of receiving stand alone pleasure from her (perhaps you feel undeserving of that).

#3 She is faking it to help you enjoy yourself and get it over with.

ALL THREE of those reasons would lead to a scenario where she would likely discretely masturbate just so she could give herself pleasure on her own terms. She would likely be hesitant to tell you about this due to the fact that you would wish to intervene and try to be in control of it in some way so that it contributes towards YOUR agenda to ramp up sexual exploration in your marriage.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

@Vega For the last 5 years, her words and actions have not lined up. She said she wanted to open up and be more. Did it happen? No. She had no desire to open up and be more. She was happy with her route of 1X a week sex and regular masturbation to satisfy with no concern for where I wanted to go. Only recently, after I see her in action while liquored up and basically say its going to happen and sex frequency is going to increase. We increase frequency and suddenly i'm seeing a new person emerge with regard to sex. Please tell me how SHOULD I interpret/view her actions. Suddenly she has no need to masturbate after the increased frequency? Don't get me wrong. We are in a better place, and this will pass. However, she knew I wanted more in that area, and she was either content with the way things were or was afraid. Content - she was getting her multi week rocks off. Afraid - we live in the same house, married 21 years 3 kids, owned 4 homes with her. She's 45 years old. At some point, maturity needs to happen. Only the last 2 months with my completely pushing the issue with full force do things change. That's not the route I wanted to go, she's my partner. And no I never forced her to do anything. I put out my expectations, and she was good with it.

>>Look at the words you’re using to describe this situation: “Confess”…”hide”…”betray”…”secrecy”…”lie”. All of those words imply “wrongdoing” on her part. Frankly, you sound more like her judge than her husband

@Diana7 Someone or something was in our bedroom. I knew it but couldn't identify the cause. I found no evidence of a EA or PA, and I certainly looked. I told her what I wanted to be. She agreed she wanted the same, but the wall was there. I didn't know how to tear down the wall. Should I have said it? Probably not. When you are at your wits end to identify the elephant in the room, I said it. I was hoping to punch a whole in the wall. At that point, the comment was true. I was never going to be for her what I wanted to be. Someone else was going to have to take up that mantle. Would I have eventually left her? Probably. The thought certainly crossed my mind very recently. I didn't and don't see anything unreasonable about what I wanted with my wife. I wanted to continue to grow all aspects of our relationship. However, when a wall is preventing that growth... where do you go? To me, in hindsight, the masturbation was the elephant in the room. No one seems to agree with me, but the fact that it stopped after our frequency increased... its a pretty straight line.. how is that not cause and effect? She supposedly wanted more, but was getting satisfied solo. If she wants to go back to the way things were, I'm out (I don't think she does). I want more out of life than fighting elephants. At this point, I don't need her in my life, I want her in my life, forever.

We had a come to Jesus meeting her lack of affection 8 years ago, and i said it wasn't working for me. Either something needed to change or I wanted out. She was devastated I felt this way, but could see how I felt that way. She knew the score. Things changed. Why did they have to get to that point? I've no idea. I'm certainly not perfect and make mistakes.
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

@badsanta I can only say, she has adamantly avowed over the years she has never faked it. Do I believe her? Probably not. Too much human nature to please your SO. If she tells me she doesn't want to for me to do something to her, but she is willing to do something for me, then I don't push it.
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 01:07 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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I wanted to continue to grow all aspects of our relationship. However, when a wall is preventing that growth... where do you go? To me, in hindsight, the masturbation was the elephant in the room. No one seems to agree with me, but the fact that it stopped after our frequency increased... its a pretty straight line.. how is that not cause and effect?
@doverfun because the elephant is STILL in the room, but now just camouflaged a little better!

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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 01:33 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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@Vega For the last 5 years, her words and actions have not lined up. She said she wanted to open up and be more. Did it happen? No. She had no desire to open up and be more. She was happy with her route of 1X a week sex and regular masturbation to satisfy with no concern for where I wanted to go. Only recently, after I see her in action while liquored up and basically say its going to happen and sex frequency is going to increase. We increase frequency and suddenly i'm seeing a new person emerge with regard to sex. Please tell me how SHOULD I interpret/view her actions. Suddenly she has no need to masturbate after the increased frequency? Don't get me wrong. We are in a better place, and this will pass. However, she knew I wanted more in that area, and she was either content with the way things were or was afraid. Content - she was getting her multi week rocks off. Afraid - we live in the same house, married 21 years 3 kids, owned 4 homes with her. She's 45 years old. At some point, maturity needs to happen. Only the last 2 months with my completely pushing the issue with full force do things change. That's not the route I wanted to go, she's my partner. And no I never forced her to do anything. I put out my expectations, and she was good with it.

>>Look at the words you’re using to describe this situation: “Confess”…”hide”…”betray”…”secrecy”…”lie”. All of those words imply “wrongdoing” on her part. Frankly, you sound more like her judge than her husband

@Diana7 Someone or something was in our bedroom. I knew it but couldn't identify the cause. I found no evidence of a EA or PA, and I certainly looked. I told her what I wanted to be. She agreed she wanted the same, but the wall was there. I didn't know how to tear down the wall. Should I have said it? Probably not. When you are at your wits end to identify the elephant in the room, I said it. I was hoping to punch a whole in the wall. At that point, the comment was true. I was never going to be for her what I wanted to be. Someone else was going to have to take up that mantle. Would I have eventually left her? Probably. The thought certainly crossed my mind very recently. I didn't and don't see anything unreasonable about what I wanted with my wife. I wanted to continue to grow all aspects of our relationship. However, when a wall is preventing that growth... where do you go? To me, in hindsight, the masturbation was the elephant in the room. No one seems to agree with me, but the fact that it stopped after our frequency increased... its a pretty straight line.. how is that not cause and effect? She supposedly wanted more, but was getting satisfied solo. If she wants to go back to the way things were, I'm out (I don't think she does). I want more out of life than fighting elephants. At this point, I don't need her in my life, I want her in my life, forever.

We had a come to Jesus meeting her lack of affection 8 years ago, and i said it wasn't working for me. Either something needed to change or I wanted out. She was devastated I felt this way, but could see how I felt that way. She knew the score. Things changed. Why did they have to get to that point? I've no idea. I'm certainly not perfect and make mistakes.
As a Christian divorce shouldn't be in you thinking unless there is cheating. You have a good wife and a good sex life it seems yet you still talk of leaving. Be thankful for the 95% you have instead of the 5% you think you don't have.
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