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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 01:36 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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Originally Posted by doverfun View Post
And before everyone goes crazy with my comment about her fear of telling me. She said that she was brought up that women didn't ask for more sex. She was afraid of what I would think of her. I tried to reassure her that we are married. We are allowed to have sex as much or as little as we want because its just between us. I have always let her know that i've wanted to satisfy her in all aspects of her life. I've always tried to make sure she has everything she wants. She's had issues with showing affection, even to our children, and always has. I know it all stems from her pedigree (stoic German) and upbringing. Her mother was 41 when she was born. One of the reasons we got together in the first place was the fact that I always showed her respect and affection. I still do.

Her vision is also a big source of her insecurity in general. She's considered statutorily blind by SSA (20/200) and is on disability. As she has RP, she may eventually go completely blind. I know that weighs on her daily. To me her vision or lack thereof is of no consequence. I have always told her that its the quality of life that matters. She's going through training right now for blindness/low vision, and that has been rough on her as well.
I can think of no other affliction [than blindness] that would be so hard to live with, to deal with. A horrible outcome to a formerly sighted person.

She is going to need all your support and trust. She will learn to replace her sight with her other senses. Kind words and frequent, gentle touch......

When her sight is completely gone, yours' will be hers. Be patient. You will be rewarded if you do so.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

@Diana7 You are completely correct, and I'm glad you called me out.

>>As a Christian divorce shouldn't be in you thinking unless there is cheating. You have a good wife and a good sex life it seems yet you still talk of leaving. Be thankful for the 95% you have instead of the 5% you think you don't have.

@SunCMars Well said, and i completely agree. She may never go blind, but there is a strong possibility she will. Her field of vision is very small, no peripheral vision. We've traveled all over US the last several years to see sights she's wanted to see before blindness sets in.

I've been loading the 401K these last few years in case something happens to me, she'll have enough money to sustain her a good, well cared for standard of living if I'm gone.
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 02:03 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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@Vega For the last 5 years, her words and actions have not lined up.
And yours are not lining up now.

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She said she wanted to open up and be more. Did it happen? No. She had no desire to open up and be more. She was happy with her route of 1X a week sex and regular masturbation to satisfy with no concern for where I wanted to go. Only recently, after I see her in action while liquored up and basically say its going to happen and sex frequency is going to increase. We increase frequency and suddenly i'm seeing a new person emerge with regard to sex. Please tell me how SHOULD I interpret/view her actions.
So she pretty much "opened up" because you TOLD her to, or else....

Quote:
Suddenly she has no need to masturbate after the increased frequency?
Are you SURE about that?

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Don't get me wrong. We are in a better place, and this will pass. However, she knew I wanted more in that area, and she was either content with the way things were or was afraid. Content - she was getting her multi week rocks off. Afraid - we live in the same house, married 21 years 3 kids, owned 4 homes with her. She's 45 years old.
Did she TELL you any of this or are you only guessing?

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At some point, maturity needs to happen. Only the last 2 months with my completely pushing the issue with full force do things change. That's not the route I wanted to go, she's my partner. And no I never forced her to do anything. I put out my expectations, and she was good with it.
To tell someone in so many words, "either 'put out' or *I'M* out" is not exactly 'mature', either.

Quote:
To me, in hindsight, the masturbation was the elephant in the room. No one seems to agree with me, but the fact that it stopped after our frequency increased...
Are you SURE it stopped? How would you react if you found out that it didn't stop?

Quote:
She supposedly wanted more, but was getting satisfied solo. If she wants to go back to the way things were, I'm out (I don't think she does). I want more out of life than fighting elephants. At this point, I don't need her in my life, I want her in my life, forever.
Once again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that you have no problem with masturbation. But if things go back to the way they were (with her masturbating), you'd be "out".
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

@Vega

I told her I wanted to try it, and she was ok with that. The results speak for themselves. She's enjoyed it and is now pursuing me more than she ever did before.
>>So she pretty much "opened up" because you TOLD her to, or else....

As I stated previously, she was afraid to tell me she wanted more. Content is my speculation. She had every opportunity to request an increase and chose not to go down that path, for whatever reason.
>>Did she TELL you any of this or are you only guessing?

So, she's a complete and utter liar now? If it didn't stop, then she should have told me up front. As I stated, my reaction was to her comment stating she stopped doing it when frequency increased, which is the whole reason for writing what I did. Had she not stopped, then her need was different, and that would be fine. Unfortunately, that's not what she said happened.
>>Are you SURE it stopped? How would you react if you found out that it didn't stop?
>>Are you SURE about that?

Yes, I'd be out with her being closed off again. Masturbating or not.
>>Once again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that you have no problem with masturbation. But if things go back to the way they were (with her masturbating), you'd be "out"
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 02:42 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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I told her that her stopping masturbating after our increase in frequency was a total betrayal to me. 5 years, i'd been trying to improve things. She said she wanted to have more sex but didn't know how to tell me. WTF? Really? 20 years of marriage? I then tell her it was obvious her masturbation was more important to her than improving our sex life having discovered that only after our increase in frequency caused her masturbation to stop.

I know and understand the role of masturbation to one's self. I have no problem with her doing it and I expected her to do it at least once in a while.

Maybe I shouldn't feel this way, but knowing her masturbation stopped was a bit much for me to take.
Your comments that I pasted above stand out to me. You are much too rigid for your own sake. After many years of marriage, your wife still seems to value the importance of a healthy sex life. When she acknowledged that she has at times masturbated about once per week, you blew a great opportunity to praise her for opening up to you. You are hurting your own cause with your over-thinking and drama. Undoing that damage will likely take months. I hope you can learn to enjoy what seems to me like a pretty good wife in this aspect.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 02:52 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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@Vega

As I stated previously, she was afraid to tell me she wanted more. Content is my speculation. She had every opportunity to request an increase and chose not to go down that path, for whatever reason.
No, not for "whatever reason". She already told you the reason and the reason was that she was AFRAID. What part of that don't you get? It's like you're not accepting her reasons as valid, and that is one of biggest mistakes you can make.

You want her to open up to you, yet others here have pointed out, that if your reaction to whatever she says is for you to dismiss the validity of her fears, then why would she WANT to open up to you?

Quote:
So, she's a complete and utter liar now? If it didn't stop, then she should have told me up front. As I stated, my reaction was to her comment stating she stopped doing it when frequency increased, which is the whole reason for writing what I did. Had she not stopped, then her need was different, and that would be fine. Unfortunately, that's not what she said happened.
>>Are you SURE it stopped? How would you react if you found out that it didn't stop?
>>Are you SURE about that?
Never said she's a "liar", but it's clear that you don't trust her. After all, you said that you suspect that she's not telling you the truth about whether or not she ever faked it with you. If she DID "confess" to you that she faked it a few times over the years, would you hold THAT against her too? Tell her (and us) that she "betrayed" you and lied to you?

I get the feeling that your wife may simply be afraid to say 'no' to you, for any reason.

Quote:
Again, not seeing the logic... you are less inclined to masturbate if you are having plenty of sex.. so sex can and does affect your masturbation frequency, but the flip of masturbating frequency doesn't affect sex frequency? Really? So more sex = less M, but more M does not equal less sex.
Whether or not you understand the "logic" of this is irrelevant. What matters is the truth behind it, which you don't seem to get.

In your 20+ year marriage, did YOU ever masturbate? Did you ALWAYS tell her when and if you did at the time you did it?

You've got plenty of people on this thread pretty much telling you that you overreacted. You even admitted as much. Yet, you continue to try and 'justify' yourself and act as if what your wife did was so HORRIBLE, especially since you already suspected that she did.

Doesn't make sense.

Last edited by Vega; 02-27-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 03:06 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

Dear Doverfun;

You are talking about your wife, the mother of your children. There is NOTHING that she or you should be afraid to tell each other. Sadly, most people can't handle that level of intimacy. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you want to be a full part of your wife's sex life or you want her to keep sexual secrets and desires (masturbation) from you. Wouldn't your relationship be better if she were not ashamed or kept hidden from her husband part of "her sexuality?"

You are not being betrayed by her. In fact she shared facts with you that she probably would not tell another soul. If I were in your shoes, I would apologize to her and tell her you appreciate her sharing information with you. In fact I would ask her if she would masturbate some weekend morning for you, while you held her in your arms and told her how much you loved her. Tell her that you love her sexuality in all of its forms.

Good luck. I think you have created a "problem" that really doesn't need to be a problem.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 03:37 PM
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I agree with the overthinking and drama assessment. I'll be honest, just the tone of your writing makes me feel like I'd shut down if I were your wife. It sounds like you kind of badger her about this. If the open communication isn't happening naturally, forcing it isn't going to help.
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Young at Heart View Post
Dear Doverfun;

You are talking about your wife, the mother of your children. There is NOTHING that she or you should be afraid to tell each other. Sadly, most people can't handle that level of intimacy. Look yourself in the mirror and ask if you want to be a full part of your wife's sex life or you want her to keep sexual secrets and desires (masturbation) from you. Wouldn't your relationship be better if she were not ashamed or kept hidden from her husband part of "her sexuality?"

You are not being betrayed by her. In fact she shared facts with you that she probably would not tell another soul. If I were in your shoes, I would apologize to her and tell her you appreciate her sharing information with you. In fact I would ask her if she would masturbate some weekend morning for you, while you held her in your arms and told her how much you loved her. Tell her that you love her sexuality in all of its forms.

Good luck. I think you have created a "problem" that really doesn't need to be a problem.
I disagree with the asking her to masturbate in front of you. If she wanted to do that, she would suggest it.
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

@Vega

The truth? Her masturbating stopped once the frequency increased. Maybe in your situation your truth is truth, but what actually happened here doesn't match your situation. Or are you unwilling to acknowledge that what happened here is true? Its not possible she stopped M once frequency increased?
>> What matters is the truth behind it, which you don't seem to get.

You're right, I do know the reasons she didn't tell me. As to their validity, I'm sure in her own mind her reasons were valid. To me, they weren't valid. Difference of opinion, yep. We aren't in high school any more. She's a grown adult. We've been married at the time 16 years. The last 5 years I've constantly asked what we could to make it better.. increase/new things/what??. Her response.. crickets. To know the last 2 months could have started 5 years ago with a simple, "I'd like to have more sex" from her. I'm sure in the end its not that simple, but over complicating or excusing it away doesn't work for me either.
>>No, not for "whatever reason". She already told you the reason and the reason was that she was AFRAID. What part of that don't you get? It's like you're not accepting her reasons as valid, and that is one of biggest mistakes you can make.

From the previous week, of telling me 'you know everything about me', to finding out her other activities the following week, now, again, she says I know everything about her. Trust shaken, yes a little. If she did or didn't fake it, only she knows, its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
>>Never said she's a "liar", but it's clear that you don't trust her. After all, you said that you suspect that she's not telling you the truth about whether or not she ever faked it with you.

I have, but haven't for many many years to focus on her. Did I tell her, no, we were knee deep in little kids at the time. Again, the issue isn't that she did M, but the fact that it stopped once the frequency increased. THAT is the issue. Things between us have been completely different in that area once the frequency increased. We are much more into each other now than we were before. She's opening up like I wanted years ago.
>>In your 20+ year marriage, did YOU ever masturbate? Did you ALWAYS tell her when and if you did at the time you did it?

@Steve1000
As to M, I was happy to hear she was doing it, and told her so. It showed she has interest in herself. I told her as much. Personally, I do think it has helped her with some of her issues. I've absolutely no doubt about that. But again, her M isn't the issue that ticked me off.
>>When she acknowledged that she has at times masturbated about once per week, you blew a great opportunity to praise her for opening up to you.

In the end, I just need to quit thinking about it. We are on the right track now. I was just ticked about the wasted 5 years waiting to get to this point.
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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 03:52 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

I've actually encouraged my wife to masturbate, and I've told her I don't care if she does it in private or in front of me. I've always looked at it as something you can do in private to figure out what works for you, especially with the fact she is a woman and needs to know. It took her at least 6 to 7 years before she would even touch herself in front of me, and she swears she has never masturbated solo. I know it's a hard thing to believe, but I have no evidence to the contrary, and wouldn't really care if I did because it truly doesn't have anything to do with me and doesn't affect me in the least. I would actually find it a good thing. It would tell me that she actually does get horny at times without me having to get her there.

My suggestion would be to just let it go. Apologize to her (yes, apologize to her!) for your being so judgmental. The fact that she has masturbated has nothing to do with you. The frequency of sex has more to do with the level of communication between the two of you than it does with the fact she has masturbated. It appears she is afraid to open up to you because of your propensity to judge her. Stop that. That not only builds resentment, but it also makes it extremely difficult to have any kind of truly open communication. It counterproductive to what you are trying to do to make things "better" in your relationship. If you continue to be angry, resentful, and judgmental, why wouldn't she want to get a "release" on her own on occasion? She doesn't have to deal with that kind of negativity when she's by herself. Sex should be a totally positive experience without fear of judgment.
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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 04:48 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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@Steve1000
In the end, I just need to quit thinking about it. We are on the right track now. I was just ticked about the wasted 5 years waiting to get to this point.
I can understand the frustration about why this couldn't happen earlier. However, I always say "Late is better than never". I'm glad to hear things are still hopeful for you. I suggest that you always praise her when she tries to be open and when she brings up an idea about sex (even if the idea doesn't sound like a very helpful idea).
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 05:11 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

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I disagree with the asking her to masturbate in front of you. If she wanted to do that, she would suggest it.
The sex therapist that helped my wife and me suggested this as a way to hold, support and encourage your partner so that the "shame" and hiding of masturbation can be banished, so that you can feel that your spouse is a person you can tell and do anything in front of and they will still be supportive and loving.

Yes, he does seem to be a little to "pushy" so maybe you are right.
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 06:19 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

Always thank your wife for sharing her truth with you, even when you are not thrilled with the content of her message. Because you should always be thankful that she feels able to share with you. When a woman stops sharing her inner thoughts, the relationship is dying.

When you can see it coming, duck!
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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 10:51 PM
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Re: Betrayed by Masturbation?

Dover,

If you want her to be honest, you will need to learn to say: Thank you for telling me that .... when she tells you stuff

And AVOID saying: Why didn't you tell me that before now?

Because I think that she was afraid to speak up until now. Maybe afraid you would leave her, just as her sight is leaving her.

Alone - in the growing darkness.



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Originally Posted by doverfun View Post
@Vega

The truth? Her masturbating stopped once the frequency increased. Maybe in your situation your truth is truth, but what actually happened here doesn't match your situation. Or are you unwilling to acknowledge that what happened here is true? Its not possible she stopped M once frequency increased?
>> What matters is the truth behind it, which you don't seem to get.

You're right, I do know the reasons she didn't tell me. As to their validity, I'm sure in her own mind her reasons were valid. To me, they weren't valid. Difference of opinion, yep. We aren't in high school any more. She's a grown adult. We've been married at the time 16 years. The last 5 years I've constantly asked what we could to make it better.. increase/new things/what??. Her response.. crickets. To know the last 2 months could have started 5 years ago with a simple, "I'd like to have more sex" from her. I'm sure in the end its not that simple, but over complicating or excusing it away doesn't work for me either.
>>No, not for "whatever reason". She already told you the reason and the reason was that she was AFRAID. What part of that don't you get? It's like you're not accepting her reasons as valid, and that is one of biggest mistakes you can make.

From the previous week, of telling me 'you know everything about me', to finding out her other activities the following week, now, again, she says I know everything about her. Trust shaken, yes a little. If she did or didn't fake it, only she knows, its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
>>Never said she's a "liar", but it's clear that you don't trust her. After all, you said that you suspect that she's not telling you the truth about whether or not she ever faked it with you.

I have, but haven't for many many years to focus on her. Did I tell her, no, we were knee deep in little kids at the time. Again, the issue isn't that she did M, but the fact that it stopped once the frequency increased. THAT is the issue. Things between us have been completely different in that area once the frequency increased. We are much more into each other now than we were before. She's opening up like I wanted years ago.
>>In your 20+ year marriage, did YOU ever masturbate? Did you ALWAYS tell her when and if you did at the time you did it?

@Steve1000
As to M, I was happy to hear she was doing it, and told her so. It showed she has interest in herself. I told her as much. Personally, I do think it has helped her with some of her issues. I've absolutely no doubt about that. But again, her M isn't the issue that ticked me off.
>>When she acknowledged that she has at times masturbated about once per week, you blew a great opportunity to praise her for opening up to you.

In the end, I just need to quit thinking about it. We are on the right track now. I was just ticked about the wasted 5 years waiting to get to this point.
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