Ignorance is bliss... - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 12:08 AM Thread Starter
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Ignorance is bliss...

Hey everyone…I’ve lurked for about a week and joined recently. I introduced myself in the “New Member” forum if you would like to see some of my background and feedback. Anyway, I am a 42 yr old male who is married to a wonderful 40 yr old woman. We have 4 kids together ages 3 – 10. I work full time and she is a SAHM. Our 3rd youngest is special needs – beautiful girl but a handful cause you always have to watch her!

My wife is the best, we are best friends & I love spending time with her. I feel like we can tell each other anything. I am a typical guy so I like to have sex with her as much as possible. I paw at her all the time and I just love her. She used to be amorous but the daily grind of being a SAHM has killed her drive. I get it. The little ones are demanding and our 3 yr old is just a brat. Rotten to the core, which is always the case, right? But my wife does her best, and she performs her wifely duties about every 2-3 days which is fine. The thing is, she is just “availing” herself to me all the time. It has been this was for years. She only gets really into sex when she is drunk (rare these days) or if I ***** and moan enough about the lack of sex/ quality of sex.

We hit a rough patch about 6 weeks ago because she just shut down unexpectedly, emotionally & physically. So late Feb ‘17 or so. By this, I mean that she would avoid the bedroom at night. She would always end up upstairs “putting the kids to sleep”, and never make it downstairs to bed. I sensed a pattern during this time. We struggled through it, and she said that it was due to her failed experiment of “homeschooling” our special needs child. What happened is that my wife felt that she could “home school” our child early this yr but it ended up being too much. We ended up putting our daughter back into a “mother’s day out” program recently. Deep down I felt there was more to her “shut down” but I went along with it and all was good…

Monday the 3rd rolls around…we had sex the night before. I had been frequenting TAM for over a week at this point and I was emboldened to take ownership of my marriage. One “tip” I seized upon was “morning sex”. What a great idea! We are so busy and this would be a great opportunity to connect and love on each other! So Monday morning rolls around and my wife ended up upstairs as usual, but the alarm goes off at 5:30am and she wanders down the stairs and makes a pit stop at half bathroom at the base of the stairs (I heard the door shut). I am awake and I am just thrilled about my newfound plan. I can’t wait cause it will be awesome and unique! What? It’s been 10min, where is DW? Then it dawned on me…um, thanks TAM…I quickly realize that she might be enjoying, ahem, “her alone time”. I leapt out of bed and made my way to the bathroom and got as close as I could. It was very quiet at this time and bones creak! And while I did not hear porn or anything, I did hear a slow, quiet, distinctive outward breath…yeah, DW was most likely jilling off. I couldn’t believe it, I mean we all do it right, but not my wife! She is dead from the neck down! I come on to her all the time and she is disinterested. I always want to go down on her and she is like, oh sure if you want to. So I went through a range of emotions…I was amused, happy for her (because I realized she WAS a red-blooded woman).

But then I got confused, angry, and sad. She NEVER asks me to pleasure her in any way! She never takes my hand and shoves it down her pants, or says hey Peacekeeper come over her and eat me. There is ZERO passion or initiative on her part! I will grant you that she does her duty when it comes to me, but she is a HOLE at this point! So basically I am crushed because I am obviously not cutting it and my wife has to fridge-off every morning as a result. And that’s the other thing…I have always known that she wakes up around 5:30am and heads out of our room…I always thought she just crashed on the couch or something because it was always quiet when she left in the morning for those 20-30 min (i.e. no racket from making breakfast in the kitchen and stuff.) So now this is hitting me like a ton of bricks…my wife has been jilling-off early in the morning to start her day and she pretty much feels that I am not getting it done…crushed x 2. Not sure what to do here…I feel like such a shrimp cocktail…
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 12:31 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

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Originally Posted by Peacekeeper View Post
I leapt out of bed and made my way to the bathroom and got as close as I could. It was very quiet at this time and bones creak! And while I did not hear porn or anything, I did hear a slow, quiet, distinctive outward breath…yeah, DW was most likely jilling off.
Are you sure she wasn't taking a really big dump, OP?

Even if I don't get likes for it, I'm still going to say it.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 12:39 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

You really do not know for sure what was going on in there.

For more on my marriage philosophies check out the marriage section of my website:
The Feminine Review

Standard Evidence Thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-...ence-post.html
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 01:16 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

If that is what she was doing, it may just be one of her only ways to relax. I'm not making an excuse, but she is undoubtably exhausted from being a SAHM, to FOUR kids, and one that is special needs. That's a very full plate for anyone. Often, we as women, deal with our annoying minds that never shut up. Nor does our constantly growing to-do list, it is always ticking away in our minds. So sometimes it's hard to get our head in the bedroom game like we need to.

It's good that she is available to you multiple times per week. I agree though that she needs to be more into it, and be fulfilling what you need also. Have you ever had a true heart to heart with her about it? I would avoid pointing out your bathroom suspicions. Also, rather than approaching it from the moaning about lack of sex and it's quality, approach it from a way that will touch her heart, and not put her on the defensive.

"Baby, I love you. You are my everything. Our lives are so busy, raising our babies. I have been thinking about our intimacy lately. I love that I am still so hot for your bod! I remember back when we were more carefree, and were able to really enjoy steamy passion together. I know it's not going to be possible for us to have sex like that every time, because our circumstances are not the same right now as they used to be. I had an idea though... What would you think about us picking one time per week, where we are both gonna give it our all. I want to please you, and drive you wild! We need that. I know I do. Do you agree? How does that sound to you? What would you like to see adjusted in our sex life?"

See what she says. If you can tell her anything, you definitely need to tell her this. It would be terrible for your marriage to get messed up because of not communicating well about your needs. Open honesty is always best with your mate. Have fun rediscovering pleasuring each other.

Ciao,

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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 07:08 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

Tough one to swallow, but don't take it personally, OP.

I've said it before in other threads, I'll repeat it here - masturbation and sex are two entirely different things.

You guys are having sex every few days as it is, so there's no real cause for concern, IMO. If it was once a week, or less, and she was getting off by herself every morning, then yeah - not cool.

However, you have said that the sex isn't that great, and she's basically going through the motions for your sake. Then it seems, actually pleasing herself on her own each morning.

So, number one - don't take it personally AT ALL. This is the product of the lifestyle you guys have chosen, and nothing more. Has nothing to do with you, or your sexual skills whatsoever. It's all about time management.

In an ideal world, this time would be spent connecting with you, rather than setting an alarm to spend 10 minutes in the bathroom getting off by herself. It sounds like it's more a habit than anything, at this point.

So, 4 kids, 10 and under. I'll assume that at least 2 of them are in school during the day. The other two being young enough they still take naps. This gives your wife a breather during the day. So she probably has a little bit of alone time Monday-Friday. This may be the more appropriate time for her to spend on herself, so to speak. And therefore, ideally, setting the alarm for 5:30am, maybe that time would be better spent with you, when she seems to actually want something sexual, or simply requires an orgasm to relieve stress.

As it is, your sex life probably adds to her daily stress - it's one more thing she has to 'fit in', and therefore she goes through the motions. Being at home, never alone, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week would SUCK - we all know it. Thankfully, it won't last her entire life! At some point in the next 4 or 5 years, she WILL have her days 'free', when all 4 kids are in school. But at the moment, it's a living hell, and she probably has no identity, other than 'mom', and every few days, 'wife'. 5:30am is likely the only time of the day where she has no responsibilities, and more importantly, nobody asking her for crap, or demanding her time.

It's tough to give advice about this. On one hand, it's probably better that you leave it. Let her have this sliver of time to do whatever she wants with - and if that includes masturbating, so be it. It's not a reflection on you, and you have to remember that. If you confront her and suggest that she include you in this - there goes the ONLY time of the week she has to herself, quite literally. And that won't help matters.

There's a slim chance that if you confront her about this time she spends alone, she may actually incorporate you in it. She may actually prefer to spend this time with you, as opposed to alone - but you don't know that. As I said, she may very much value her 10 minutes BY HERSELF.

But if you simply can't do it, then I wouldn't talk to her about it, if I were you. You don't want to give her ANY pressure to give up this time - that's just a BAD idea, IMO. Instead, see if the two of you can masturbate in bed, next to each other. Or at least let her know she doesn't have to run off to the bathroom to do this - she can simply set her alarm for 5:30, do her thing, and you may or may not join her, depending on if you're awake or not. The main thing to remember is that, if you do let her know that you know, not to make her feel guilty about it. Smile, tell her it's hot, and that you absolutely respect her alone time, but that she doesn't have to leave the room to do it if she doesn't want to. And also, don't turn it into sex, unless SHE does, first. Keep it about self-pleasure, because it's highly likely that's all she wants, and doesn't want to have to worry about somebody else. She already spends the rest of her days doing this.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 07:37 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

Worry not.

Her affair partner is yours' too.

He serves you dinner.
He caresses your face [when you are exceptionally good].
He too touches your snake. *@&%
He holds you in a tight embrace.

He is your right handed friend.
He has your back.

And he is connected to your wife's wrist.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 07:41 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

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Originally Posted by EunuchMonk View Post
Are you sure she wasn't taking a really big dump, OP?


Pretty sure she wasn't just taking a dump but it's possible I guess. She's not Al Bundy for Pete's sake, heck even I don't take 20-25 min to bust a deuce. But like I said anything possible.


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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 07:57 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

Honestly, being a SAHM to four children, one of whom is special needs, means that she likely gets very little alone time. So, while as a man your first thought is that she's masturbating in the bathroom each morning, that may not be reality. It may actually be that this is the only real alone, quiet, no one needs anything, no one is pawing at me, no one is calling for me, time she has in the average day. Hiding out in the bathroom for half an hour really isn't uncommon. In fact, depending on your kids, it may be that this is the only time she gets to use the bathroom all by herself all day. She may just be pooping, waxing, shaving her legs, applying a mud mask, coloring her hair, bleaching her teeth, taking a shower, clipping her toenails, or doing any of the myriad things that generally keep your average mommy looking like a woman. She may even just sitting on the floor enjoying the quiet while she reads or scrolls through Facebook. And, yes, part of her hard to find, has to get up at 5:30 in the morning to have it, scraped together me-time might sometimes include masturbation. But I would guess that it doesn't, more often than you seem to be imagining.

I get that you miss the hot, passionate, into each other, sex life you had before you had four children, but "confronting" your wife about how she uses her 30 minutes of quiet free time every morning may not be the way to get back to that. If you're worried about how she's spending that time at 0530 each morning, try getting up with her each morning and asking her to spend that time with you, talking, having coffee together, connecting in a way that may be more meaningful for her than more sex would be at this point. But whatever you do, zero butthurt over her setting an alarm so that she can carve out 30 minutes of alone time for herself before a slammed-full day of taking care of small needy people.

You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view. - Obi Wan Kenobi
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 08:47 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

I do not agree that ignorance is bliss. Stuff has a way of working its way out into the open in the long run...

I read this and hear disappointment at the prospect of barriers and a lack of openness with the one person who is not only your entire world, but is clearly your EVERYTHING (co-pilot, best friend, partner, confidant) in this crazy life...

If I am reading this right, that can leave a guy feeling pretty inadequate.

But there are a lot of other things that may be at play, too. I can't possibly say specifically how, but I think that the "what" is to communicate to her that you are there for her, that she can share she anything she wants with you (but doesn't have to), and that you will always be accepting of her.

Like I said, easier said than done. But the collective brilliance at TAM should be able to help!!!
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 11:00 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

You have 4 kids at home including 1 special needs? You are getting sex every 2 to 3 days? Thank your lucky stars, kiss your wife and thank her for being a wonderful wife and whatever you do, do not complain about sex.

Look, I understand you want more and you want passion and you want lots of things that you aren't getting and it hurts. Not trying to minimize your pain. But the best way to turn an acceptable sex life into an unacceptably bad sex life is to complain to your SAH wife who is caring for 4 kids that she isn't getting the job done on the sex front. You are likely to come across as a whiny needy child-man. And the last thing she needs is another child to care for. She won't respect you and that undercuts her attraction for you.

If you want to have an open conversation about sex, make it about her needs and thoughts and feelings. Ask her what she wants that she isn't getting inside and outside the bedroom. Whatever she says, thank her for sharing with you. And mean it. even if she complains about you. Even if she attacks you. Do not defend yourself. If you complain about the truth she shares, she will stop sharing. And the only thing worse than a wife who is annoyed with you is a wife who won't tell you why she is annoyed with you. Because then you can't fix it. If she tells you you stink or have bad breath, you can shower and put on cologne and brush your teeth and use mouthwash. It is everywhere and always a good thing when your wife tells you what bothers her about you - and there is always something.

Once you have shown that you can make it safe for her to share unpleasant truths, and that you take her seriously and will work to address her complaints, then you can address what you might want from her. Don't start with your needs and desires and the ways in which she falls short. Start with the ways you fall short and fix them. Much harder for her to dismiss your requests out of hand after you showed such care and concern for her.

Also, probably a good idea to let her play with herself when she wants to. Many members at TAM have complained that their partner masturbates. Trying to prohibit it hardly ever works out well for the person making the request. It just breeds resentment. People do not like feeling controlled. They don't like being forced to do things or not do things. It triggers rebellious feelings. Better to entice them to want to do (or not do) what you want than to try to strong arm them into complying.

Good luck. The time when kids are home tends to be stressful. The more you can compromise during this time (and yes, it lasts a LONG time), the more likely you can get back to being hot and heavy after the kids leave home. The key is to have a marriage where you WANT to stay together after the kids leave. I hope you get there.

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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 11:24 AM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

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...You are likely to come across as a whiny needy child-man. And the last thing she needs is another child to care for. She won't respect you and that undercuts her attraction for you.

If you want to have an open conversation about sex, make it about her needs and thoughts and feelings. Ask her what she wants that she isn't getting inside and outside the bedroom. Whatever she says, thank her for sharing with you. And mean it. even if she complains about you. Even if she attacks you. Do not defend yourself. If you complain about the truth she shares, she will stop sharing. And the only thing worse than a wife who is annoyed with you is a wife who won't tell you why she is annoyed with you. Because then you can't fix it. If she tells you you stink or have bad breath, you can shower and put on cologne and brush your teeth and use mouthwash. It is everywhere and always a good thing when your wife tells you what bothers her about you - and there is always something.

Once you have shown that you can make it safe for her to share unpleasant truths, and that you take her seriously and will work to address her complaints, then you can address what you might want from her. Don't start with your needs and desires and the ways in which she falls short. Start with the ways you fall short and fix them. Much harder for her to dismiss your requests out of hand after you showed such care and concern for her.

Also, probably a good idea to let her play with herself when she wants to. Many members at TAM have complained that their partner masturbates. Trying to prohibit it hardly ever works out well for the person making the request. It just breeds resentment. People do not like feeling controlled. They don't like being forced to do things or not do things. It triggers rebellious feelings. Better to entice them to want to do (or not do) what you want than to try to strong arm them into complying.

Good luck. The time when kids are home tends to be stressful. The more you can compromise during this time (and yes, it lasts a LONG time), the more likely you can get back to being hot and heavy after the kids leave home. The key is to have a marriage where you WANT to stay together after the kids leave. I hope you get there.
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But the collective brilliance at TAM should be able to help!!!
That answer is about as perfect as it can get.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 12:05 PM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

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....married to a wonderful 40 yr old woman. We have 4 kids together ages 3 – 10. I work full time and she is a SAHM. Our 3rd youngest is special needs – beautiful girl but a handful cause you always have to watch her!

My wife is the best, we are best friends & I love spending time with her. I feel like we can tell each other anything. I am a typical guy so I like to have sex with her as much as possible. I paw at her all the time and I just love her. She used to be amorous but the daily grind of being a SAHM has killed her drive. I get it.

.....She only gets really into sex when she is drunk (rare these days) or if I ***** and moan enough about the lack of sex/ quality of sex.


....she would avoid the bedroom at night.

....I was emboldened to take ownership of my marriage. One “tip” I seized upon was “morning sex”. What a great idea! We are so busy and this would be a great opportunity to connect and love on each other! So Monday morning rolls around and my wife ended up upstairs as usual, but the alarm goes off at 5:30am and she wanders down the stairs and makes a pit stop at half bathroom at the base of the stairs (I heard the door shut). I am awake and I am just thrilled about my newfound plan. I can’t wait cause it will be awesome and unique! .....I leapt out of bed and made my way to the bathroom and got as close as I could.

....She is dead from the neck down! I come on to her all the time and she is disinterested. I always want to go down on her and she is like, oh sure if you want to.....

But then I got confused, angry, and sad. She NEVER asks me to pleasure her in any way!

... So basically I am crushed because I am obviously not cutting it and my wife has to fridge-off every morning as a result.
Dear Peacekeeper; You are such a "Nice Guy!" That was not a complement.

Get a copy of Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy." It is about men who are codependent and require validation by the women in their lives. Loosing your Nice Guy card isn't about becoming a jerk, it is about becoming an integrated man that women find irresistible.

Your description of yourself and your "plan" is a classic description of a Nice Guy. The Plan is a great example of what Glover would call a Covert Contract. A covert contract is where you decided to do something so that your wife will have sex with your or provide some other validation you need. The problem is that you don't explain the deal to her and get her buy-in. Since you wife understands you from body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc., when yo do your part of the covert contact and expect her to deliver, she looks at you and say what a looser. A Nice guy then says hey that was a great plan, I just need to double down to make it work. The Nice guy increased his efforts and still gets nothing for it, but tried the next time even harder until he feel crushed and sulks, which is even less appealing to his wife.

Glover's recommendation is for you to "Get a Life." That means improving yourself physically and emotionally. Usually it means working out and taking up sports that give you satisfaction and confidence. In the case of a dad, it can mean doing quality things with some of your older children that provide their mom some free time and prove to her what an alpha male great father figure you are for her children. Examples could be hiking with your older children, bicycling with them, swimming, taking a weekly martial arts class with them, etc.

A few more observations. First, the really big whopper in your post.
"I feel like we can tell each other anything."

Nope. Self delusion. You are telling us everything, but you can't (and possibly shouldn't) tell your wife you were spying on her, plotting to jump her bones in the morning, and are desperate to have sex with her. If the two of you could tell each other everything, she wouldn't be hiding from you upstairs at night. If the two of you could tell each other everything, she wouldn't have to treat your sexual needs as a chore.

Second, she is probably exhausted, touched out, and overwhelmed. I think I understand what might be going on, because my wife is LD and I am HD (high sexual demand). My wife was overwhelmed as a stay at home mom. My wife and I drifted apart emotionally until we were in a sex starved marriage. It got to the point that we were likely never going to have sex again. The strange thing was that we really loved each other and daily said how much we loved each other, but not in any way the other could understand.

Chapman's book the 5 languages of love explained a lot to me. My primary and secondary love languages are touch and words of affirmation (praise). My wife's primary and secondary love languages are acts of service and quality time. (The fifth love language is the giving of presents.) When I wanted to express my love for my wife I would reach out to touch her (not to have sex with her, but just touch her shoulder, hand, or hug her). Her response was stop pawing at me, you just want to get in my pants. That made me feel rejected. When I praised her about something she did, she would stay, stop buttering me up, you just want to get in my pants and have sex.

I started to feel really rejected, and so I would stay late at work. I told myself I was trying to improve my career and be a better provider for my family. In reality I was seeking the praise from boss and coworkers that my wife would not give me. I wanted to feel loved and validated.

Meanwhile, my wife's mother had conditioned her to believe that showing a man how much you loved him was through acts of service, such as having a hot meal read you him and your family and then siting down at the dinner table to discuss everyone's day and your hopes for the next day (quality time). If I worked late and she burned the dinner, she felt like I had rejected her expressions of love to me. She would yell at me (opposite of praise) and I would quickly gobble something down when I got home and sit in front of the TV to avoid being yelled at, which just made her feel even more rejected (no quality time talking or yelling).

We did this dance to each other for years until she just stopped caring and we had a sex starved marriage.

YOU ARE LUCKY! You don't have a sex starved marriage.

You are headed that way, so you might want to get MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage. It will teach you some things that my help you keep from getting in a sex starved marriage. The first is to back off. Clingy, sexually needy men (NICE GUYS) are not attractive or sexy. MW Davis will teach you about the art of the 180. If what you are doing isn't working, try the complete opposite or something different. (Glover would say don't double down on a covert contract that isn't working.) MW Davis will also recommend that you Get A Life, just like Glover. In many ways her book is the perfect companion for Glover's NMMNG. It provides a slightly different perspective for the same problem with somewhat the same set of solutions, but it allows you to see and understand the recommendations more fully when explained twice and differently.

Good luck

Of, I have been married to the same wonderful woman for over 46 years. We came very close to divorce, but with the help of a sex therapist, some great books, lots of change on my part, we now have sex twice a week and are very happy together. Are marriage was saved.

Last edited by Young at Heart; 04-04-2017 at 12:12 PM.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 12:48 PM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

Here's another suggestion, start edging your wife when you get home. Tell her "give me 5 minutes" then kiss her neck as you get her aroused and focus on getting her as aroused as you can and then after 5 minutes you walk away.

If she is masturbating every morning, and I'm not convinced she is, it means that she knows how to get herself there quickly and efficiently and that's what you need to give her.

My H used to sneak one in for me a few times a month, while I was making dinner, before he left for work or golf... so if you can get your wife to allow you to give her those "gotta get off now" orgasms your sex life will probably improve.

If you can show you wife that you can give her a great orgasm and then walk away, she will know that she can come to you if she needs to get off.

Also, stop *****ing about sex. She is chasing after 4 kids for goodness sake! Just the thought of it makes my girl parts shrivel up and hide. So get her out of the house, away from the kids, for an entire weekend (ideally) or at least over night once a month. Just go to the closest hotel, get carry out subs and pretend you don't have kids.

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 01:23 PM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

Should be pretty easy to determine if she was taking a dump.

You have a nose, use it!
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 01:24 PM
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Re: Ignorance is bliss...

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Also, stop *****ing about sex. She is chasing after 4 kids for goodness sake! Just the thought of it makes my girl parts shrivel up and hide. So get her out of the house, away from the kids, for an entire weekend (ideally) or at least over night once a month. Just go to the closest hotel, get carry out subs and pretend you don't have kids.
I don't disagree with the idea of backing off, but I prefer ease-off... Too sudden of a change and she may question if you still find her attractive...

If you can't do a week-end getaway, at least work in a mom's night out or something where she can have some alone time not limited to the bathroom.
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