Thoughts on this - Page 10 - Talk About Marriage
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post #136 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 07:40 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Jessica, I continue to search, but I am not finding anything linking Gottman to a recommendation of 15 hours a week. I am only finding recs for 5 or 6 hours.

Please link if you find something. We want to give out accurate citations of his research, right?

Also, did Harley do actual peer-reviewed research? Or are his recs just based on his experience/philosophy?

Alex, I think you can do this on much less than 15 hours. But I would highly suggest focusing those hours. Jmo.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #137 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I'm pretty sure OP and his wife have discussed this. She doesn't desire him, she straight out doesn't think about sex or look forward to it.
The second part is correct. But she does desire me, just not sex.

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Originally Posted by MrsAldi View Post
And yet he wants her to flirt during the week before sex.
He wants to feel some passion and desire from her.

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Ideally, yes, but I've long given up on that! No-win battle.

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Originally Posted by Jessica38 View Post
OP, do you believe it is a control thing or just low desire on her part? The thing is, most women need and want an emotional connection to desire sex. I know I do and I love sex with my husband. I'm not saying that you're not trying, but to some women "Let's go upstairs" is not necessarily going to get us in the mood.

The number 1 thing that makes me desire sex is non-sexual intimacy outside of the bedroom.

If she isn't feeling desire and she has sex with you anyway, it can create an aversion, which may be what's happening. She does it to appease you but no longer enjoys it herself.
It's both control and low desire. Lack of desire brings the need for control.

There's plenty of non-sexual intimacy, believe me!

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But I got the impression that the sex was mad good from what alexm said upthread???
It is

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post #138 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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@alexm are you part of the "wife wants me to vacuum" brigade? Do you vacuum? Do you split chores?

Does your wife want to "date" on weeknights?

Sorry if I'm offbase on any of this.
Not offbase.

No, I do my fair share and more. I'm self-employed, and the wife is out the door before the kids and I are even up. I'm home when they get home. I have time to do a lot of the household stuff, and make slightly more than she does, to boot.

She does her share, too, of course. I'd say it's 55/45 me, though.

If you include breakfasts, school lunches and most dinners, it's more me, but I don't really include those in the chore category. People gotta eat, and she doesn't like to cook

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #139 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Jessica, I continue to search, but I am not finding anything linking Gottman to a recommendation of 15 hours a week. I am only finding recs for 5 or 6 hours.

Please link if you find something. We want to give out accurate citations of his research, right?

Also, did Harley do actual peer-reviewed research? Or are his recs just based on his experience/philosophy?

Alex, I think you can do this on much less than 15 hours. But I would highly suggest focusing those hours. Jmo.
I would say we're way over that, TBH. The bulk of it is on weekends, yes, but we do also have time throughout the week.

Both of the kids are old enough to not only look after themselves, and they're also not always home, either.

We don't watch a LOT of tv, but when we do, about 75% of the time we're next to each other, and at least touching (holding hands for example) and quite often straight up cuddling.

Today, we changed over our winter tires for the summers, and did it together. Younger son came out to "help" for a bit... We made a mundane chore fun. Went and got coffee afterwards. We spent an hour or so in bed this morning, awake, just chatting and laughing. We folded laundry together. Visited with my mom as a family. BBQ shopping the other day. Board game with the younger kid yesterday. Out with friends last evening. etc etc etc.

This is a typical week for us. A good mix of alone time, family time, and friends. I also get out on my own for at least a few hours a week, and each of us has a healthy amount of true alone time (apart from each other, and often the kids).

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #140 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 10:31 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

We are kind of old - youngest child is in Korea teaching English, middle child finishing senior year of college - oldest graduated and living with her boyfriend. So we have the house to ourselves and a lot of time together.

Not sure I agree with the sort of one sided 'wife nurturing' approach to time together described below. Though I guess that sort of does happen to a degree.

The English had this concept called noblesse oblige - defined below. And it was the basis for chivalry. Women - were viewed as lesser creatures - and therefore deserving of special consideration.

1. the inferred responsibility of privileged people to act with generosity and nobility toward those less privileged.
"there was to being a celebrity a certain element of noblesse oblige"

-------------
But - there is nothing lesser about M2.

So the reason she always gets the best seat - at the restaurant - movie theater - theater theater - first dibs on anything that exists in limited quantity - is solely because I want that outcome. And that desire - is hardwired.

Occasionally we have a brief ping pong of - you go first - no you go first. Typically one of us short circuits that rally with some playful but determined move - and the other yields.





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Are you sure Gottman says 15 hours a week? I thought it was 5 or 6. That seems more realistic.

Dug and I have 5 kids, and the weeks we have spent 15 hours together one on one have been few and far between.

What you really want is for the man to devote those six hours to nurturing his wife. Talk about her interests, do the things she likes to do. Create attachment, and the sex will surely follow.

That is what Dug has done, anyway.
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post #141 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 10:42 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

The five days I spent in Washington DC 24/7 with J2 convinced me that 15 hours a year is a pretty good target...

My late brother followed Mem's advise. He put his wife on a pedestal sized for the Statue of Liberty.... I'm sure he's busy in the afterlife counting how many times he noblesse oblige'd her...
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post #142 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 10:53 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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This is a typical week for us.
So through that typical week for you both, in fleeting moments did you sometimes flirt with your wife and tease her sexually? Did you try to do something a little bit risqué with her? Did you kiss your wife provocatively on the mouth (with tongue) and then quickly stop, when your kids or friends were out of a sight line with you both?

If you didn't do any of the above, why?
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post #143 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-09-2017, 11:58 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

John,
If one can judge a society by the way it treats its prisoners, than perhaps one can judge a person by the way they treat those - who can do nothing for them. Certainly the very old and the very young fall into this category.

And in that respect, M2 has no peer.

She starts a recycling program wherever she goes to work. And is generally determined to leave the earth better than she found it.

So if it's true she is on an elevated plane - its cause she climbed the mountain all by herself - not because I catapulted her up there.


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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
The five days I spent in Washington DC 24/7 with J2 convinced me that 15 hours a year is a pretty good target...

My late brother followed Mem's advise. He put his wife on a pedestal sized for the Statue of Liberty.... I'm sure he's busy in the afterlife counting how many times he noblesse oblige'd her...
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post #144 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 12:33 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Alex,
Reason you are so jammed up here - is that in the past - you said what was true - but your delivery was neither low affect nor concise.

You will likely be pleasantly surprised by the reaction to a low affect, super concise delivery style.

Just do not bluff. Women are the ultimate poker players. They will pick up a bluff a mile away.

No offense intended but you have been sort of kind of half threatening to leave her over this crap for many years.

Let me try and be helpful here. M2 does some stuff that is - not ideal. She does. And it's patterned. Thing is - it isn't even close to end game territory. So I've learned to say what's true - clearly, concisely and calmly which is: Babe, it would be really nice if you would do X when Y happens.

That's it. She knows what's happening. And that it isn't really fair/right/defensible.

But it isn't even close to creating a true breach.

If I say: babe - that doesn't work for me - she KNOWS what that means. And it doesn't mean I'm leaving. Just that - if pushed - I might lose my motivation to do all the stuff that she is used to and loves. But my delivery isn't angry - it is more - disappointed.


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Originally Posted by alexm View Post
I would say we're way over that, TBH. The bulk of it is on weekends, yes, but we do also have time throughout the week.

Both of the kids are old enough to not only look after themselves, and they're also not always home, either.

We don't watch a LOT of tv, but when we do, about 75% of the time we're next to each other, and at least touching (holding hands for example) and quite often straight up cuddling.

Today, we changed over our winter tires for the summers, and did it together. Younger son came out to "help" for a bit... We made a mundane chore fun. Went and got coffee afterwards. We spent an hour or so in bed this morning, awake, just chatting and laughing. We folded laundry together. Visited with my mom as a family. BBQ shopping the other day. Board game with the younger kid yesterday. Out with friends last evening. etc etc etc.

This is a typical week for us. A good mix of alone time, family time, and friends. I also get out on my own for at least a few hours a week, and each of us has a healthy amount of true alone time (apart from each other, and often the kids).
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post #145 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 05:17 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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John,
If one can judge a society by the way it treats its prisoners, than perhaps one can judge a person by the way they treat those - who can do nothing for them. Certainly the very old and the very young fall into this category.

And in that respect, M2 has no peer.

She starts a recycling program wherever she goes to work. And is generally determined to leave the earth better than she found it.

So if it's true she is on an elevated plane - its cause she climbed the mountain all by herself - not because I catapulted her up there.
It matters little how one gets on the pedestal. One shouldn't be put on one, period.

A marriage is a relationship of equals. There's too much at stake otherwise.
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post #146 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 05:54 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

MEM, have you read Gottman's book, The Man's Guide to Women, from 2016?

It says that "men make or break heterosexual relationships." In it Gottman encourages men to "attune" to their wives, and explains how.

That may not feel fair. But sometimes life is easier if we just focus on what works.

I think focusing those six hours on your wife is the shortcut, Alex.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #147 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 05:58 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Alex,
Reason you are so jammed up here - is that in the past - you said what was true - but your delivery was neither low affect nor concise.

You will likely be pleasantly surprised by the reaction to a low affect, super concise delivery style.

Just do not bluff. Women are the ultimate poker players. They will pick up a bluff a mile away.

No offense intended but you have been sort of kind of half threatening to leave her over this crap for many years.

Let me try and be helpful here. M2 does some stuff that is - not ideal. She does. And it's patterned. Thing is - it isn't even close to end game territory. So I've learned to say what's true - clearly, concisely and calmly which is: Babe, it would be really nice if you would do X when Y happens.

That's it. She knows what's happening. And that it isn't really fair/right/defensible.

But it isn't even close to creating a true breach.

If I say: babe - that doesn't work for me - she KNOWS what that means. And it doesn't mean I'm leaving. Just that - if pushed - I might lose my motivation to do all the stuff that she is used to and loves. But my delivery isn't angry - it is more - disappointed.
But the underlying threat is still there.

I don't think this is healthy.

ETA: This might help explain the concern: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...r-relationship

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man

Last edited by jld; 04-10-2017 at 07:10 AM.
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post #148 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 06:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Personal View Post
So through that typical week for you both, in fleeting moments did you sometimes flirt with your wife and tease her sexually? Did you try to do something a little bit risqué with her? Did you kiss your wife provocatively on the mouth (with tongue) and then quickly stop, when your kids or friends were out of a sight line with you both?

If you didn't do any of the above, why?
Flirting sexually, or being overt like that accomplishes nothing. I learned that years ago. It either generates no response, or a somewhat negative one. That doesn't mean I still don't occasionally do these things, though. I know what the outcome will be, but I don't care.

That's what I'm saying. Outside of this weekly time frame, it's a no-fly zone.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #149 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 06:16 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Update #1 - no sex last night, but I didn't have to avoid or reject. Went to bed at the same time after being out most of the night (but not too late). She wanted to snuggle, so we did for a while. I imagine she was expecting it would turn into something, but I kept my hands to myself.

I actually enjoyed the cuddling, knowing that it wasn't going to turn into something. We talked about the evening, and plans for today. Eventually I rolled over and slept like a baby.

I have no doubt she went to bed wondering why I didn't make a move for sex, but I don't think she was too upset about it, either.

So there you go - I stuck to my guns and didn't have to make an issue out of it.

Keep in mind, folks, I'm not doing this to prove a point to her, so much as I'm just not happy with things the way they are at the moment. Sex on her schedule doesn't make me feel good. Talking to her about it has accomplished nothing. This isn't a protest or a 'work-to-rule' so much as it is me just not wanting to feel empty. If she had been aggressive last night, I wouldn't have stopped her, or pushed her off or anything - I don't want to totally reject her, as that would be very counter productive.

But Hope has the right idea in regards to her husband and my similar issue - I'm not going to chase this any longer. We happened to go to bed at the same time last night, I didn't go to bed because she was going to bed, therefore that was my chance, or my 'opening'. As Hope said, her sex life is essentially the same as mine, but instead of bedtime, once a week, it's morning, once a week. If she's awake before her hubby, she'll wait for him to wake up and then do what he normally does, and she gets laid. If he wakes before her, she'll be woken up by him for sex.

So, like her, we're both working around our spouses schedule, on the one day a week, and that one time, where we know it's going to happen if we just follow their rules. Yeah, we know we can get laid at that one time, but we have no control over it.

For me, it's a shift in mindset. I had been conditioned (like Pavlov's dog) to get my sex fix at that day and time. So yes, I was getting laid, but I had no control over any of it.
Honestly, a shift in mindset is a good thing. You spent time with her, got a chance to cuddle, and slept like a baby, in part b/c your expectations were adjusted (minimize frustration, etc...). I know people will say it is not "healthy", but when many of the other aspects in the marriage are going well, sometimes it is just better to have that change in mindset. Maybe in the long run it isn't ideal, but the reality there are situations where unless you are willing to basically walk away from the person, things aren't going to change dramatically, and you can't force someone to do something they really aren't driven to do. For me, it just isn't worth putting much effort into sex (in terms of pursuing / initiating) since it is so one sided. Life goes on, just focus on all the other positive things. There is a trade off of course, but even though this isn't necessarily the best option for my W it is the best alternative. I do sleep like a baby now

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post #150 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 06:40 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Honestly, a shift in mindset is a good thing. You spent time with her, got a chance to cuddle, and slept like a baby, in part b/c your expectations were adjusted (minimize frustration, etc...). I know people will say it is not "healthy", but when many of the other aspects in the marriage are gong well, sometimes it is just better to have that change in mindset. Maybe in the long run it isn't ideal, but the reality there are situations where unless you are willing to basically walk away from the person, things aren't going to change dramatically, and you can't force someone to do something they really aren't driven to do. For me, it just isn't worth putting much effort into sex (in terms of pursuing / initiating) since it is so one sided. Life goes on, just focus on all the other positive things. There is a trade off of course, but even though this isn't necessarily the best option for my W it is the best alternative. I do sleep like a baby now
I agree with this. I don't think I ever saw myself getting to this point, but here I am.

The thing is, once you stop looking at it like "she wins, and gets her way", it's no big deal. I mean, it's not a competition, is it?

I don't look at it as me giving up, or acquiescing, it's just that I'm tired, and it's a losing battle. And I never wanted it to be a battle in the first place.

But the reality is that I'm settling. I've mentioned this in passing to her before - that I AM settling in this regard. I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't want my partner to feel like she's settling for me in any one area. If she can live with that, so be it, but perhaps at some point it will dawn on her that, at least in this one area, she's being settled for and that may not sit well with her. She's actually kind of like that, personality-wise.

Currently (or up to fairly recently, to be more precise) all of this has likely made her feel like she's getting her way - a win in her column. So being settled for doesn't register.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."

Last edited by alexm; 04-10-2017 at 07:05 AM.
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