Thoughts on this - Page 103 - Talk About Marriage
Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

User Tag List

 2804Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
post #1531 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 09:23 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,655
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
LOL. Women are no more complex and no less self aware than men are.

Just because you have easier access to your head than to your wife's doesn't make you any easier to understand or your perspective any simpler or easier to understand.
I didn't say that women are more complex and less self-aware than men.

I said that women's sexuality (as a rule) is more complex than men's sexuality (as a rule).

You can take the position that they are essentially the same because that sounds like "equality" but I don't think that point of view reflects reality.

If one starts with assumptions that sound good but don't reflect reality, that usually makes it harder to solve the problem.
Buddy400 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1532 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 08:39 PM
Member
 
wild jade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,558
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
I didn't say that women are more complex and less self-aware than men.

I said that women's sexuality (as a rule) is more complex than men's sexuality (as a rule).

You can take the position that they are essentially the same because that sounds like "equality" but I don't think that point of view reflects reality.

If one starts with assumptions that sound good but don't reflect reality, that usually makes it harder to solve the problem.
Okay, sorry, let me rephrase. Women's sexuality is no more complex than men's sexuality.

This has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with reality. I've noticed that men on TAM really like to describe themselves as "simple", and women as "complex", but IME there's no truth to it. Men's sexuality is also influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, spirituality, you name it. And women are nowhere near as convoluted as you like to portray us. Well, maybe your wife is. But I'm not. And I'm not alone.
wild jade is offline  
post #1533 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 12:59 AM
Member
 
Faithful Wife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,973
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Okay, sorry, let me rephrase. Women's sexuality is no more complex than men's sexuality.

This has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with reality. I've noticed that men on TAM really like to describe themselves as "simple", and women as "complex", but IME there's no truth to it. Men's sexuality is also influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, spirituality, you name it. And women are nowhere near as convoluted as you like to portray us. Well, maybe your wife is. But I'm not. And I'm not alone.
I also get tired of the "men are simple, women are so complex even THEY don't know what they want" mantra around here.

SOME women definitely DO know what they want and can express it, execute it, and relish in getting it when they do.

Yet those of us women who are in that category can post here all day long about what we want, and still there will be some dudes saying "no, you don't really know what you want, you say this but you don't even know yourself".

Sigh...

And then there are the men who are not sexually self aware, who don't actually know what they want (what causes an easy orgasm is not necessarily "what they want"), and who wouldn't be able to communicate what they wanted even if they tried.

Men like this are ignored and completely drowned out by other men who claim over and over that "men are simple, women are complex and don't know what they want".

Women who have been with men like this are told "he is probably gay".

Men who have been with women who don't fulfill them sexually are told "she's just a cold witch and has no idea what she really wants".

Meanwhile back in reality, the wife of the above man may have been telling her husband for years EXACTLY what she wants, but because HE doesn't understand what HE really wants, he can't even hear her. Then he projects the failure of the sexual relationship on her because he couldn't possibly be "the problem" since "men are simple".

It is always so easy to blame the other person.

I followed the story of a sex starved couple for several years. He told his version first. It was the usual: Sex was ok and semi frequent in the beginning. Now we have a kid, her sex drive tanked, I try to do everything to help her load with the kid and the house, but she still complains of being tired all the time and makes excuses. She is the problem, not me. I am trying, she is not. Wah wah wah....victim speak yada yada yada.

The wife of that couple eventually joined that forum and told us her side of the story. The main problem for her was that her husband smoked, and she was extremely sensitive to the smell of smoke and couldn't tolerate smelling it on him. She requested that if he approached her for sex, he showered first if he had smoked. He refused to do it.

She was in love with her husband. She wanted very much a good sexual relationship with him. But since he wouldn't ever listen to her and refused to shower before he tried to kiss her or initiate, she gathered that actually having a sexual connection wasn't that important to him, he just wanted to sound like a victim but do nothing to address her legitimate request.

After a few years of reading both sides of their story on that forum, it was clear that he just wanted to whine about the lack of sex but wanted no part of actually addressing her issues about having sex with him.

Eventually it became clear that HE was his own c*ck blocker, not her. HE was the one who had been given precise instructions on how to seduce her, because she DID know what she wanted and was able to communicate it to him. Yet he simply didn't want to be bothered with taking any actions that would address her concerns. It would have been so simple, and he went to great lengths to defend why he didn't, wouldn't or couldn't simply take a shower before he initiated kissing or sex.

And further on down the story...it eventually became obvious that he was deliberately refusing to take a shower and was thereby ensuring that he would remain sexless.

Why would he do this yet try to claim victim status over and over to the others on the forum?

The eventual answer was that he was insecure. He didn't feel comfortable in his body or in his sexual skills. He used the smoking issue as a reason to avoid intimacy with his wife, while at the same time claiming victim status that SHE was the one rejecting him. The reality was that he was rejecting her. He knew what he would have to do, he knew she wanted to be sexual with him, but he had a way to avoid sex with her altogether, which he used because he didn't want to admit or reveal that HE is actually the one who wanted to avoid sex. He was not even consciously aware he was doing this. He could not admit that he was actually too afraid to have sex with her. He had to appear "manly" to himself and others and appear to be the one who wanted sex but was being rejected. This was simply a ruse and a way to continue avoiding intimacy, which is what he really feared most of all.

Men are simple and know what they want, but women are complex and don't know what they want?

Screw that. People are complex and some of them know what they want while others don't.

Remember the goal of feminism: Making sure only alphas get laid!
Faithful Wife is online now  
post #1534 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 03:19 AM
Member
 
inmyprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1,294
Thoughts on this

Some women's sexuality is way more complex than that of men. Some women don't really know or understand what they want. Those are the women some of the men here are probably referring to. I don't know why these conversations have to always become about the 'battle of the sexes'. Men are just trying to figure out their women. There is nothing more to it. (I don't think?) There should be some sort of general disclaimer: 'this is not a generalisation. Terms & conditions as well as numerous exceptions apply'.
Or are you implying that all men are too stupid to work it out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by inmyprime; 04-28-2017 at 07:29 AM.
inmyprime is offline  
post #1535 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 03:31 AM
Member
 
inmyprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1,294
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
I also get tired of the "men are simple, women are so complex even THEY don't know what they want" mantra around here.

SOME women definitely DO know what they want and can express it, execute it, and relish in getting it when they do.

Yet those of us women who are in that category can post here all day long about what we want, and still there will be some dudes saying "no, you don't really know what you want, you say this but you don't even know yourself".

Sigh...

And then there are the men who are not sexually self aware, who don't actually know what they want (what causes an easy orgasm is not necessarily "what they want"), and who wouldn't be able to communicate what they wanted even if they tried.

Men like this are ignored and completely drowned out by other men who claim over and over that "men are simple, women are complex and don't know what they want".

Women who have been with men like this are told "he is probably gay".

Men who have been with women who don't fulfill them sexually are told "she's just a cold witch and has no idea what she really wants".

Meanwhile back in reality, the wife of the above man may have been telling her husband for years EXACTLY what she wants, but because HE doesn't understand what HE really wants, he can't even hear her. Then he projects the failure of the sexual relationship on her because he couldn't possibly be "the problem" since "men are simple".

It is always so easy to blame the other person.

I followed the story of a sex starved couple for several years. He told his version first. It was the usual: Sex was ok and semi frequent in the beginning. Now we have a kid, her sex drive tanked, I try to do everything to help her load with the kid and the house, but she still complains of being tired all the time and makes excuses. She is the problem, not me. I am trying, she is not. Wah wah wah....victim speak yada yada yada.

The wife of that couple eventually joined that forum and told us her side of the story. The main problem for her was that her husband smoked, and she was extremely sensitive to the smell of smoke and couldn't tolerate smelling it on him. She requested that if he approached her for sex, he showered first if he had smoked. He refused to do it.

She was in love with her husband. She wanted very much a good sexual relationship with him. But since he wouldn't ever listen to her and refused to shower before he tried to kiss her or initiate, she gathered that actually having a sexual connection wasn't that important to him, he just wanted to sound like a victim but do nothing to address her legitimate request.

After a few years of reading both sides of their story on that forum, it was clear that he just wanted to whine about the lack of sex but wanted no part of actually addressing her issues about having sex with him.

Eventually it became clear that HE was his own c*ck blocker, not her. HE was the one who had been given precise instructions on how to seduce her, because she DID know what she wanted and was able to communicate it to him. Yet he simply didn't want to be bothered with taking any actions that would address her concerns. It would have been so simple, and he went to great lengths to defend why he didn't, wouldn't or couldn't simply take a shower before he initiated kissing or sex.

And further on down the story...it eventually became obvious that he was deliberately refusing to take a shower and was thereby ensuring that he would remain sexless.

Why would he do this yet try to claim victim status over and over to the others on the forum?

The eventual answer was that he was insecure. He didn't feel comfortable in his body or in his sexual skills. He used the smoking issue as a reason to avoid intimacy with his wife, while at the same time claiming victim status that SHE was the one rejecting him. The reality was that he was rejecting her. He knew what he would have to do, he knew she wanted to be sexual with him, but he had a way to avoid sex with her altogether, which he used because he didn't want to admit or reveal that HE is actually the one who wanted to avoid sex. He was not even consciously aware he was doing this. He could not admit that he was actually too afraid to have sex with her. He had to appear "manly" to himself and others and appear to be the one who wanted sex but was being rejected. This was simply a ruse and a way to continue avoiding intimacy, which is what he really feared most of all.

Men are simple and know what they want, but women are complex and don't know what they want?

Screw that. People are complex and some of them know what they want while others don't.


Yes, agree with your last para. The problem is we mostly get to hear only one side of the story and many are already attuned to this and try to ask searching questions about the other side to try and get a fuller picture. It often still remains only one perspective of the story. What is one supposed to do then, say I can't help you until your wife signs up for TAM and tells us her side?
I do generally believe, deep down there is never only one side responsible for all the mishaps. It's just not possible. The best recipe for success is to find some sort of compromise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
inmyprime is offline  
post #1536 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 06:37 AM
Member
 
wild jade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,558
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
Men are simple and know what they want, but women are complex and don't know what they want?

Screw that. People are complex and some of them know what they want while others don't.
Ya, I briefly dated a guy like that once. He was so insecure about his genitalia that he was embarrassed to get naked and had all kinds of excuses and mind games to just avoid sex.

And, of course, easy orgasm isn't all that easy for some guys. It often takes over an hour and concerted effort for my husband, who has ED. I can assure you that at this point, I know much better what he needs to deal with this than he does.

Or guys that have the reverse problem and shoot too easily. Or all the fetishes and kinks and whatnot.

Sexuality is pretty complex. Full stop.

Last edited by wild jade; 04-28-2017 at 06:45 AM.
wild jade is offline  
post #1537 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 06:43 AM
Member
 
wild jade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,558
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
Some women's sexuality is way more complex than that of women. Some women don't really know or understand what they want. Those are the women some of the men here are probably referring to. I don't know why these conversations have to always become about the 'battle of the sexes'. Men are just trying to figure out their women. There is nothing more to it. (I don't think?) There should be some sort of general disclaimer: 'this is not a generalisation. Terms & conditions as well as numerous exceptions apply'.
Or are you implying that all men are too stupid to work it out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There's no "battle of the sexes" here. It's just an observation I've made. In thread after thread are all these, yes, generalizations, that basically say men are simple, and women are complex. And like @Faithful Wife said, so complex that we haven't a clue about ourselves. And it's not a "some" thing. It's clear that this is supposed to be some kind of rule for helping people understand the sexes.

It's kind of funny, actually. But also kind of sad. And certainly not terribly helpful in figuring anything out.
wild jade is offline  
post #1538 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
alexm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,792
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
Yes, agree with your last para. The problem is we mostly get to hear only one side of the story and many are already attuned to this and try to ask searching questions about the other side to try and get a fuller picture. It often still remains only one perspective of the story. What is one supposed to do then, say I can't help you until your wife signs up for TAM and tells us her side?
I do generally believe, deep down there is never only one side responsible for all the mishaps. It's just not possible. The best recipe for success is to find some sort of compromise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
@Faithful Wife @wild jade

The bolded above is how I feel, too. I know that the situation I'm in has something to do with me as well. It's not just my wife.

That said, there are absolutely times when one simply can't extract that all-important information out of them. Will my wife not tell me what she wants because she's afraid of... me? Perhaps.

If she suddenly signed up for TAM and started posting, would it all become more clear? Perhaps.

Am I a stupid man who only hears what he wants to hear? Perhaps (but I don't think so). Certainly not as stupid as the man in your example.

How about this? Instead of 'men being simple, women being complex when it comes to sex' let's say that 'most men need to directly be told something in order for it to sink in'?

I have given my wife one million opportunities to do so with no success. It's not that I'm not listening to her, or not hearing things I don't want to hear. It's that when I've asked "What the hell do you want me to do? What do YOU like?" and otherwise begging her to be direct, the answer is, and always has been "I don't know". I **** you not. I can think of only two things my wife has ever said NOT to do - spank her (and that came out of nowhere) and not to ever put my
**** near her mouth for oral sex (and it took 3 years for her to say that, and it's not something I regularly did. Also understandable). FWIW, she's also hinted at (never said directly) to be more aggressive, or less passive, anyway. To take her from time to time. To not focus so much on her. But, as you can imagine, that only works when she's in the mood for that, and how on earth am I supposed to know when she is or isn't? Even with the times that I don't care what she's in the mood for, and dammit, I'm just going to take her, it's a 50/50 split whether she actually enjoys it or not.

Look, I'll give you this - many (most...) men do not listen. It's in our genes, I think. But a lot of us do. The example above, of the husband who smokes - that's not not listening, that's stupidity and not giving a ****. That guy was an idiot. He's being told, specifically, what will not work, yet continued to do it. But... how long did it take the wife to tell him that?

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
alexm is offline  
post #1539 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 07:37 AM
Member
 
inmyprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1,294
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexm View Post
@Faithful Wife @wild jade

The bolded above is how I feel, too. I know that the situation I'm in has something to do with me as well. It's not just my wife.

That said, there are absolutely times when one simply can't extract that all-important information out of them. Will my wife not tell me what she wants because she's afraid of... me? Perhaps.

If she suddenly signed up for TAM and started posting, would it all become more clear? Perhaps.

Am I a stupid man who only hears what he wants to hear? Perhaps (but I don't think so). Certainly not as stupid as the man in your example.

How about this? Instead of 'men being simple, women being complex when it comes to sex' let's say that 'most men need to directly be told something in order for it to sink in'?

I have given my wife one million opportunities to do so with no success. It's not that I'm not listening to her, or not hearing things I don't want to hear. It's that when I've asked "What the hell do you want me to do? What do YOU like?" and otherwise begging her to be direct, the answer is, and always has been "I don't know". I **** you not. I can think of only two things my wife has ever said NOT to do - spank her (and that came out of nowhere) and not to ever put my
**** near her mouth for oral sex (and it took 3 years for her to say that, and it's not something I regularly did. Also understandable). FWIW, she's also hinted at (never said directly) to be more aggressive, or less passive, anyway. To take her from time to time. To not focus so much on her. But, as you can imagine, that only works when she's in the mood for that, and how on earth am I supposed to know when she is or isn't? Even with the times that I don't care what she's in the mood for, and dammit, I'm just going to take her, it's a 50/50 split whether she actually enjoys it or not.

Look, I'll give you this - many (most...) men do not listen. It's in our genes, I think. But a lot of us do. The example above, of the husband who smokes - that's not not listening, that's stupidity and not giving a ****. That guy was an idiot. He's being told, specifically, what will not work, yet continued to do it. But... how long did it take the wife to tell him that?


Is there a link to this thread? Would be interesting to read.
Sounds a bit odd if that's how it really played out. (That he would complain about his wife not putting out while knowing that she didn't do it because he was a smoker).
I'm not really sure what the example is supposed to illustrate in any case. (It certainly doesn't demonstrate that men, or even just that one man, have a more 'complex' sexuality...Actually it still demonstrates the opposite. Plus his 'deafness'.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
inmyprime is offline  
post #1540 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 07:49 AM
Member
 
inmyprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1,294
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Ya, I briefly dated a guy like that once. He was so insecure about his genitalia that he was embarrassed to get naked and had all kinds of excuses and mind games to just avoid sex.

So did he post here to say that it was you who refused sex to him instead? I think this was FW's point and what's under the discussion. Unless I'm getting mixed up.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
inmyprime is offline  
post #1541 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 08:37 AM
Member
 
Holdingontoit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the woods
Posts: 1,350
Re: Thoughts on this

I am both of those guys, and I am fairly sure I have never met @Faithful Wife or @wild jade .

So the particular guys they mention are not the only ones. I am embarrassed about my genitalia. I avoid sex out of shame and fear. I blame my wife. I shoot early. I don't have any idea what would make sex good for me. And I would be terrified if FW or WJ ever offered to show me what I wanted.

Some men's sexuality is very simple. Some of men have very complex sexuality.

So do some women. The real tragedy is when we pair up together. I am married to @alexm's wife. I have asked her what makes it better or worse for H2. She says she has no idea. she has given hints that on occasion she wants me to be more dominant / aggressive. Other times she shuts down completely if I show any hint of dominance. Calling me names and violently pushing me away. She needs a strong confident man who can weather her outbursts. A man who understands and is comfortable with his own sexuality and with his wife's. Unfortunately, H2 did not marry that man.

When you can see it coming, duck!
Holdingontoit is offline  
post #1542 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 08:47 AM
Member
 
Faithful Wife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,973
Re: Thoughts on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexm View Post
Look, I'll give you this - many (most...) men do not listen. It's in our genes, I think. But a lot of us do. The example above, of the husband who smokes - that's not not listening, that's stupidity and not giving a ****. That guy was an idiot. He's being told, specifically, what will not work, yet continued to do it. But... how long did it take the wife to tell him that?
She told him right off the bat. She never hid it from him. He knew all along, he was deliberately being obtuse so that he could avoid having sex with her but yet try to make it look like her choice to reject him. It was messed up.

@alexm I never meant to imply that you are saying "men are simple, women don't know what they want" as a general statement. I don't think you even believe that. I think you understand most beings are somewhat complex, and that some women are simple while some are not. I think your wife is more simple than you think - - but that is because I just assume she is the way she is and there is no more you are going to find out about her that will make your sex life any different for you. I do think you are stuck in a spiral of trying to figure her out, because there's nothing more to figure out....she isn't going to want more sex or different sex than what you are getting right now, IMO. Your trying to figure her out is ultimately trying to figure out how to get more and different sex, and I just don't think that's going to happen. She isn't hiding anything and she isn't going to become more passionate during the week no matter what you learn about her (other than maybe brief flashes of it).

But I have never put you in the camp of the men who continually stereo-type the "women don't know what they want" thing.

Remember the goal of feminism: Making sure only alphas get laid!
Faithful Wife is online now  
post #1543 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:01 AM
Member
 
Holdingontoit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the woods
Posts: 1,350
Re: Thoughts on this

@Faithful Wife is likely correct. Some people just do not have a yellow crayon in their crayon box. No matter how often you ask or how you phrase the request, you will never hear them say "oh, look, here is my yellow crayon".

When you can see it coming, duck!
Holdingontoit is offline  
post #1544 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:02 AM
Member
 
john117's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 11,620
Re: Thoughts on this

If you explain what you want directly and the other person is not exactly keen on getting on with the program, that makes it a lot easier for them to stonewall. If you frame your request accordingly, and let the other person participate in the 'discovery' process it actually may work better.

I have found this to be a valuable approach...
john117 is online now  
post #1545 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 10:05 AM
Member
 
Holdingontoit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the woods
Posts: 1,350
Re: Thoughts on this

Yes, @john117, if you offer to help someone clean up their messy room, rather than ordering them to do so, you increase the odds that the mess gets cleaned up and, lo and behold, you jointly discover there was a yellow crayon under the mess after all.

But sometimes you clean up the room and there is no yellow crayon. Standing in the doorway of a tidy room and saying over and over again "I know you have a yellow crayon stashed away in there somewhere" is eventually going to get tiresome and unwelcome. Do that often enough, and you can trigger someone to stop tidying their room.

When you can see it coming, duck!
Holdingontoit is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on Talk About Marriage, you must first register. Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Important! Your username will be visible to the public next to anything you post and could show up in search engines like Google. If you are concerned about anonymity, PLEASE choose a username that will not be recognizable to anyone you know.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Would Like to Hear Your Thoughts WhiskeyVictor Considering Divorce or Separation 9 09-17-2016 12:55 AM
Fellow parents of older teens, what are your thoughts? Beautiful-day-I-hope The Family & Parenting Forums 15 04-19-2016 12:14 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome