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post #1546 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 11:39 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by wild jade View Post
Okay, sorry, let me rephrase. Women's sexuality is no more complex than men's sexuality.

This has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with reality. I've noticed that men on TAM really like to describe themselves as "simple", and women as "complex", but IME there's no truth to it. Men's sexuality is also influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, spirituality, you name it. And women are nowhere near as convoluted as you like to portray us. Well, maybe your wife is. But I'm not. And I'm not alone.
There are, by definition, significant exceptions to any generalization. You're an exception, @Faithful Wife is an exception and so are my wife and I. It is generally true that men are stronger than women. However, knowing this, it would be a significant mistake to assume than any specific man is stronger than any specific woman. One could decide that, since generalizations are not true for every member of a group, no advice can be given without complete knowledge of the individual and their circumstances. That may be a valid point of view but it would make advice sites like TAM worthless.

Do doubt men's sexuality is influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, etc. But they aren't the same hormones, the same psychology or the same biology. The least likely result would be if, given those differences, both genders ended up with exactly the same drivers of their sexuality.

The idea that women's sexuality is more complex than men's is not some sort of extreme Red Pill idea. Many women on TAM have posted about differences in women's sexuality (responsive vs spontaneous desire; needing a feeling of safety; the need to feel emotionally connected; seduction beginning in the morning; difficulty focusing; on and on), unfortunately they never seem to join in these discussions when you, FW, always alone, et al start talking about how there's no difference between male and female sexuality.

Just given the differing levels of testosterone, it would be shocking if men and women's sexuality was the same.

Where's the female Viagra? Read anything about efforts to develop one and you'll hear people talking about how women's sexuality is so much more complex than men's.

Here's a liberal psychologist explaining why she doesn't give gender neutral advice:

Why Gender-Neutral Advice Isn't Always Useful | The Huffington Post
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post #1547 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 01:17 PM
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Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
I am both of those guys, and I am fairly sure I have never met @Faithful Wife or @wild jade .



So the particular guys they mention are not the only ones. I am embarrassed about my genitalia. I avoid sex out of shame and fear. I blame my wife. I shoot early. I don't have any idea what would make sex good for me. And I would be terrified if FW or WJ ever offered to show me what I wanted.



Some men's sexuality is very simple. Some of men have very complex sexuality.



So do some women. The real tragedy is when we pair up together. I am married to @alexm's wife. I have asked her what makes it better or worse for H2. She says she has no idea. she has given hints that on occasion she wants me to be more dominant / aggressive. Other times she shuts down completely if I show any hint of dominance. Calling me names and violently pushing me away. She needs a strong confident man who can weather her outbursts. A man who understands and is comfortable with his own sexuality and with his wife's. Unfortunately, H2 did not marry that man.


I don't believe you! you are probably a sex god holding back your potential for your own enjoyment. You mentioned on your thread you had sex with 10 women! That's 8 (and a half) more than me, you Casanova (The one half I don't even want to count because it was with a girl I didn't particularly like and it didn't really 'work'. If it was you, you'd probably be ashamed for rest of your life for this pathetic 'performance'. And I should have been).

Try to enjoy and appreciate what you have. Some people fall asleep alone every night or have no one to talk to at all. Maybe one day your outlook will change (and your wife's too!.) I hope so anyway.


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Last edited by inmyprime; 04-28-2017 at 01:34 PM.
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post #1548 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 01:57 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Buddy,

I'd say that the analogy to the height difference comment is spot on.

We have tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of generations (as hunter gatherers) during which the food supply - was frequently uncertain. The cost of childbearing is completely different during a food shortage. If mama mated with a 'quality partner', two things were true:
- He did the basic 'protection 101 stuff' AND
- He made an effort to ensure she had enough to eat PLUS ONE.

Six point four percent - that's the fraction of our incomes we spend on food in the USA.

All this to say - having sex - whole different risk profile for a woman. For a whole lot of totally valid reasons.

And it grates on my sensibilities when survival oriented behavior is casually commingled with status climbing (gold digging) behavior as the two activities are entirely different.











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Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
There are, by definition, significant exceptions to any generalization. You're an exception, @Faithful Wife is an exception and so are my wife and I. It is generally true that men are stronger than women. However, knowing this, it would be a significant mistake to assume than any specific man is stronger than any specific woman. One could decide that, since generalizations are not true for every member of a group, no advice can be given without complete knowledge of the individual and their circumstances. That may be a valid point of view but it would make advice sites like TAM worthless.

Do doubt men's sexuality is influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, etc. But they aren't the same hormones, the same psychology or the same biology. The least likely result would be if, given those differences, both genders ended up with exactly the same drivers of their sexuality.

The idea that women's sexuality is more complex than men's is not some sort of extreme Red Pill idea. Many women on TAM have posted about differences in women's sexuality (responsive vs spontaneous desire; needing a feeling of safety; the need to feel emotionally connected; seduction beginning in the morning; difficulty focusing; on and on), unfortunately they never seem to join in these discussions when you, FW, always alone, et al start talking about how there's no difference between male and female sexuality.

Just given the differing levels of testosterone, it would be shocking if men and women's sexuality was the same.

Where's the female Viagra? Read anything about efforts to develop one and you'll hear people talking about how women's sexuality is so much more complex than men's.

Here's a liberal psychologist explaining why she doesn't give gender neutral advice:

Why Gender-Neutral Advice Isn't Always Useful | The Huffington Post
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post #1549 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 02:23 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
I didn't say that women are more complex and less self-aware than men.

I said that women's sexuality (as a rule) is more complex than men's sexuality (as a rule).

You can take the position that they are essentially the same because that sounds like "equality" but I don't think that point of view reflects reality.

If one starts with assumptions that sound good but don't reflect reality, that usually makes it harder to solve the problem.
I try not to conflate my sexuality with my sex drive.

One is very complex, the other is very simple.

The fact that I can separate the two . . . might be because I'm a girl
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post #1550 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 03:29 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Buddy,

I'd say that the analogy to the height difference comment is spot on.
From my link, this is what motivates me to push back on the "both genders are the same" meme :

"While tearing down stereotypes is important to me, I do not think this should be done solely via dismissing or even minimizing innate differences."

"So, overall, I want all partners to learn about and accept each others’ unique traits, whether biologically based or socially influenced or (as is likely with most things) both. But refusing to acknowledge the impact of biology and innate gender differences on behavior within relationships seems to me to be unnecessarily shooting couples in the foot; why not discuss something that would likely resonate with them and would help them understand the evolutionary and biological explanations for each partner’s behavior?"


Sometimes being politically correct can interfere with solving problems.
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post #1551 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 03:40 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
From my link, this is what motivates me to push back on the "both genders are the same" meme :

"While tearing down stereotypes is important to me, I do not think this should be done solely via dismissing or even minimizing innate differences."

"So, overall, I want all partners to learn about and accept each others’ unique traits, whether biologically based or socially influenced or (as is likely with most things) both. But refusing to acknowledge the impact of biology and innate gender differences on behavior within relationships seems to me to be unnecessarily shooting couples in the foot; why not discuss something that would likely resonate with them and would help them understand the evolutionary and biological explanations for each partner’s behavior?"


Sometimes being politically correct can interfere with solving problems.
Sigh....

You can try to put words in my mouth all you want, but you can't make it true that I said those words or ever meant anything like them.

Just because I disagree with the tired old "men are simple and women don't know what they want" when stated as a generality, doesn't mean I am saying "men and women are exactly the same". What I have always said and will continue to say is that men and women can both be complex or simple, that each PERSON is unique and has their own needs, preferences and desires. This does not imply that there is no difference between the sexes and their sexuality and their hormonal profiles. Yes, there are LOTS of differences....evidenced by our different bodies and hormonal profiles. You have an outie, we have an innie. That difference alone is self evident, and outies and innie react, perform, and respond differently than each other. Yet each man is not the same, the generalities that many of you guys believe are wide spread are not as wide spread as you think, which many MANY of us women are trying to tell you, along with our direct experiences and other information as evidence.

In fact, I love it that men are more complex than you would usually claim they are. I love knowing each different man I've been with and what HE needs and wants. It would be boring if they were all the same, as you insinuate most men are. I want a man who has some individuality in his sexuality, and LO AND BEHOLD....every single man I've ever been with DOES have individuality in his sexuality. It is like a maze or a puzzle (a fun one!) to figure a guy out.

Lord help me if all men really were the same and wanted the same thing and reacted always the same way....I'd be bored to hell.

Remember the goal of feminism: Making sure only alphas get laid!

Last edited by Faithful Wife; 04-28-2017 at 03:46 PM.
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post #1552 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:08 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by alexm View Post
@Faithful Wife @wild jade

The bolded above is how I feel, too. I know that the situation I'm in has something to do with me as well. It's not just my wife.

That said, there are absolutely times when one simply can't extract that all-important information out of them. Will my wife not tell me what she wants because she's afraid of... me? Perhaps.

If she suddenly signed up for TAM and started posting, would it all become more clear? Perhaps.

Am I a stupid man who only hears what he wants to hear? Perhaps (but I don't think so). Certainly not as stupid as the man in your example.

alexm, I'm very sorry if I gave you the impression that I was saying that you are stupid or not listening to your wife. Nothing could be further from the truth. You seem like a genuinely good person doing his best to make sense of things..

I was just responding to a particular type of advice that I've seen given often here on TAM, and that strikes me as both incorrect and completely unhelpful. Counter-productive even.

As for your wife? Obviously I can't know, and it may very well be that she is incredibly unselfaware or so complex as to be unknowable. But, as I've suggested earlier in this thread, I also think she's told you exactly who she is, and you know it, and started your OP with it, but at the same time, your wishful thinking is getting the better of you, and you want the truth to be different than it is.

It's possible that there's some secret buried treasure that if only you had the map, you could find it. But tbh, I think you know deep down that you've already found what treasure there is, and there really just isn't any more.

Is that a bad thing? Sure we all dream of having it all, but it also sounds like things are mostly pretty good for you.
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post #1553 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:28 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Buddy400 View Post
T

Do doubt men's sexuality is influenced by hormones, psychology, biology, etc. But they aren't the same hormones, the same psychology or the same biology. The least likely result would be if, given those differences, both genders ended up with exactly the same drivers of their sexuality.
Yes, women and men are different. We are also the same in many ways. Biologically and psychologically speaking we are much more similar than different.

And my point wasn't at all about equality, nor was it about being gender neutral. It was simply to point out that men aren't "simple" and easy to figure out. Yes, the hormone that rules their behavior is typically testosterone, not estrogen, but they are still ruled by those hormones. Oh, wait, except they are not. Some men will hump anything in sight, and some men are extremely selective and really don't want to be humping for the sake of humping. Some men find casual sex empty, meaningless, unfulfilling, and some men find monogamy stifling and to be avoided at all costs. Tell me how is this different from some women wanting emotional connection, while others are okay with casual sex?

Or if you want to talk about difficulty focusing. My husband has ED and it takes him a very, very long time to orgasm. He gets close, and guess what? Loses focus. You do know that ED is a very, very common problem with men, don't you? And it has a number of causes, including biological and psychological.

You seem to want reduce male sexuality to nothing more than blood flow to the penis and ejaculation. But it is ever so much more complicated than that. And even that's not as simple as you might think.

This has nothing to do with being "politically correct", so I don't know where you get that from. It's just about making generalizations that are false and unhelpful. Certainly when it comes saying something like "men are simple and women are complex" we are infinitely more similar than you think. Perhaps if you were giving more specific advice, the gender differences would matter more.
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post #1554 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:59 PM
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Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
Sigh....

You can try to put words in my mouth all you want, but you can't make it true that I said those words or ever meant anything like them.

Just because I disagree with the tired old "men are simple and women don't know what they want" when stated as a generality, doesn't mean I am saying "men and women are exactly the same". What I have always said and will continue to say is that men and women can both be complex or simple, that each PERSON is unique and has their own needs, preferences and desires. This does not imply that there is no difference between the sexes and their sexuality and their hormonal profiles. Yes, there are LOTS of differences....evidenced by our different bodies and hormonal profiles. You have an outie, we have an innie. That difference alone is self evident, and outies and innie react, perform, and respond differently than each other. Yet each man is not the same, the generalities that many of you guys believe are wide spread are not as wide spread as you think, which many MANY of us women are trying to tell you, along with our direct experiences and other information as evidence.

In fact, I love it that men are more complex than you would usually claim they are. I love knowing each different man I've been with and what HE needs and wants. It would be boring if they were all the same, as you insinuate most men are. I want a man who has some individuality in his sexuality, and LO AND BEHOLD....every single man I've ever been with DOES have individuality in his sexuality. It is like a maze or a puzzle (a fun one!) to figure a guy out.

Yes, it's like the one with 12 pieces I do with my son while the woman's sexuality is the puzzle with 5000 pieces
(Disclaimer: not all women. Some are like one piece of puzzle that doesn't seem to fit anywhere )

Ok so here's a big difference in sexuality between men and women: my wife always feels bouts of energy after sex. Just now she had a massive urge to go and hang up laundry or do something active. While I feel like I have been exposed to kryptonite and can't move. Almost every time is the same. She tells me it's an excuse so I don't need to help her hang it up...It's difficult to relate to someone else's state of mind I suppose.
We are all 'autistic' on some level (disclaimer: oh I can't be ****ed with these disclaimers anymore).




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post #1555 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:11 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

I'm one of those women who has no idea what I want (in bed - that's the only place strangely enough!). It's frustrating.

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post #1556 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 02:23 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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In fact, I love it that men are more complex than you would usually claim they are. I love knowing each different man I've been with and what HE needs and wants. It would be boring if they were all the same, as you insinuate most men are. I want a man who has some individuality in his sexuality, and LO AND BEHOLD....every single man I've ever been with DOES have individuality in his sexuality. It is like a maze or a puzzle (a fun one!) to figure a guy out.

Lord help me if all men really were the same and wanted the same thing and reacted always the same way....I'd be bored to hell.
Totally agree! Anyone who thinks men are simple just hasn't spent enough time dating them.
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post #1557 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 04:24 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

My mum always taught me that I should find a woman who knows how to cater to men's 'complexities'. She used to say that men generally require 3 things regularly to be happy: food, sex and...can't remember the third one as I used to fall asleep with my milk bottle.


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post #1558 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 09:52 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what @Hope1964 is thinking when she was posting on this thread.

And all the other women on TAM with pretty much the same story as her.
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post #1559 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 08:52 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Totally agree! Anyone who thinks men are simple just hasn't spent enough time dating them.
This made me reflect upon how different my experience with and attitudes towards sex and sexuality are now, 25 plus years into my relationships with my husband, than they were in the first five or ten years, before we married and had kids.

Like apples and oranges, really.

I think if I was dating again, what I'd want and desire in a sexual relationship would not be what I now want and desire from this man who I've weathered storms with, the man who is the father of my three children, the man who has driven me crazy, been my rock, stood my me, and who I've both believed is the worst thing to happen to me, and the best thing to happen to me, depending on circumstances and how well we were doing as a couple.

In short, I've shared a lifetime with him, and that makes a difference in our sex lives.

If I was dating, "testing the waters" with a man, starting a new relationship or newly committed? Not even in the same category, and not suitable for all the same advice. Long term sexual relationships have unique qualities and considerations, I think.

I have zero tolerance for complicated men these days. And I make no apologies for my complexities. Double standard? Yes, and there are many others that we both have wisely learned to accept--and even appreciate for the way they heighten the eroticism between us.

Twenty years ago? Yeah I fought tooth and nail against that stuff. Now I'm like, "man up" and he's like, "over my knee, *****." There's nothing like being objectified by a man you can trust to do it right!

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post #1560 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 03:48 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by GettingIt_2 View Post
This made me reflect upon how different my experience with and attitudes towards sex and sexuality are now, 25 plus years into my relationships with my husband, than they were in the first five or ten years, before we married and had kids.

Like apples and oranges, really.

I think if I was dating again, what I'd want and desire in a sexual relationship would not be what I now want and desire from this man who I've weathered storms with, the man who is the father of my three children, the man who has driven me crazy, been my rock, stood my me, and who I've both believed is the worst thing to happen to me, and the best thing to happen to me, depending on circumstances and how well we were doing as a couple.

In short, I've shared a lifetime with him, and that makes a difference in our sex lives.

If I was dating, "testing the waters" with a man, starting a new relationship or newly committed? Not even in the same category, and not suitable for all the same advice. Long term sexual relationships have unique qualities and considerations, I think.

I have zero tolerance for complicated men these days. And I make no apologies for my complexities. Double standard? Yes, and there are many others that we both have wisely learned to accept--and even appreciate for the way they heighten the eroticism between us.

Twenty years ago? Yeah I fought tooth and nail against that stuff. Now I'm like, "man up" and he's like, "over my knee, *****." There's nothing like being objectified by a man you can trust to do it right!

Not sure I understand the bolded: you are still looking for partners? (I'm sure I misunderstood).

Do you mean that if you were single now and were looking for a partner now, it would be someone quite opposite of your current partner? Or do you mean your partner has changed? Or your view of him?

This is a bit revelatory. Should it be like this? When I think about a 'suitable substitute' for my wife there's just no other type I can think of. Nor can I place her into any particular category who's is strange. I usually 'pigeon hole' certain personalities all the time (often unintentionally). It is possible that I idolise her a bit. Sometimes people tell me how they see her (e.g. Always confident in what she wants, and how she plans everything in her life - almost to the point of sounding like she is manipulative), I always feel they are talking about somebody else as it completely doesn't seem to resonate.

I wonder if we are able to see our partners 'objectively' at all?




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