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post #151 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 06:46 AM
jld
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by alexm View Post
I agree with this. I don't think I ever saw myself getting to this point, but here I am.

The thing is, once you stop looking at it like "she wins, and gets her way", it's no big deal. I mean, it's not a competition, is it?

I don't look at it as me giving up, or acquiescing, it's just that I'm tired, and it's a losing battle. And I never wanted it to be a battle in the first place.

But the reality is that I'm settling. I've mentioned this in passing to her before - that I AM settling in this regard. I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't want my partner to feel like she's settling for me in any one area. If she can live with that, so be it, but perhaps at some point it will dawn on her that, at least in this one area, she's being settled for and that may not sit well with her. She's actually kind of like that, personality-wise.

Currently (or up to fairly recently, to be more precise) all of this has likely made her feel like she's getting her way - a win in her column. So being settled for doesn't register.
There seems to be underlying resentment here, Alex, and maybe projection, which is not healthy.

Have you two ever gone to marriage counseling? (Sorry if this has already been discussed.)

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #152 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 07:20 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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There seems to be underlying resentment here, Alex, and maybe projection, which is not healthy.

Have you two ever gone to marriage counseling? (Sorry if this has already been discussed.)
Resentment on my part, you mean? Hard to say. I think I used to, yes. But lately (say, the past several months) no, not really.

No counselling, no. I won't make excuses as to why not, but it's an option. I don't think we're there yet, nor do I think it would actually be all that helpful, TBH. I'm not against counselling at all, but the issues revolve around her sexuality and mindset about the subject. I think at this point, couples counselling to deal with the sex issue wouldn't be helpful.

I believe what she needs is solo counselling or even outright therapy. She obviously has issues with sex, period, that could be resolved, but I don't think me being present would be helpful.

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post #153 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

Update #2 - I could have (should have) added this yesterday while it was more current, but I didn't have the time, and wanted to respond to a couple of the replies at the time.

Sunday morning - had sex (great sex, too...)

Woke up before her, went downstairs to put the coffee on, feed the animals, putter around a bit. Came back upstairs to brush my teeth and get dressed etc. and she was still in bed, but starting to stir. Figured I'd hop back in bed for some cuddling. Kids weren't up yet, and we had no plans for the day.

Did this for 25, 30 minutes or so. She got out of bed to brush her teeth, I stayed there because I was comfortable. She then asked why I came back to bed. Told her I came up to brush my teeth, saw she was stirring, so thought I'd jump in and cuddle with her (I didn't have sex in my mind AT ALL). She jumped back in, and we got to it. Not only that, but she rode me like a stolen horse - not something she does very often - and had multiple orgasms in that position. Finished off in missionary, where she soaked the sheets. (apologize for the TMI, but I think it's relevant to show she was clearly 'into it'.)

I know it's only one day, but this whole 'not expecting or thinking about sex' thing may have some merit...

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post #154 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 07:54 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

I was just listening to something today about sex in marriage and the presenter said that sadly even today many women do not realise the importance of sex in a marriage, particularly to the husbands. It is a deep seated need whereas many women can go without it for some time. She said women don't get it as the don't have the same need. However, women on the other hand have a deep need to talk and connect with their husbands.
She said women who don't want to give it up should think about her husband coming home and not talking to her for 4 hours, for 4 days, for 4 weeks, for 4 months, 4 years, whatever, how would she feel?

I thought that this was an interesting perspective. However, on the other hand there are many husbands who put in little effort in meeting the needs of their wives, so should wives still give it up if she doesn't feel like it?

BTW I am not talking about myself, I enjoy that aspect too much
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post #155 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 07:56 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
The answer is YES, I would have to be ok with it. I am not entitled to have sex with my wife and my wife does not have the duty to have sex with me.



Sex is like food, it is a need. But if you do not work and earn money, there will be no food on the table.



This entitlement mentality is what is wrong with humankind. I am not entitled to sex. I have sex with my wife because she wants to have sex with me. When I retire, I am not entitled to a social security check. I will get one if society feels like giving one to me.


Well said. Maybe not personal entitlement...but a relationship needs it. It's one of the things that makes it an intimate relationship as opposed to a friendship.
But there is also nothing wrong with phasing in and out of friendship versus intimate relationship. Just how life goes.


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post #156 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 07:59 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by alexm View Post
Update #2 - I could have (should have) added this yesterday while it was more current, but I didn't have the time, and wanted to respond to a couple of the replies at the time.

Sunday morning - had sex (great sex, too...)

Woke up before her, went downstairs to put the coffee on, feed the animals, putter around a bit. Came back upstairs to brush my teeth and get dressed etc. and she was still in bed, but starting to stir. Figured I'd hop back in bed for some cuddling. Kids weren't up yet, and we had no plans for the day.

Did this for 25, 30 minutes or so. She got out of bed to brush her teeth, I stayed there because I was comfortable. She then asked why I came back to bed. Told her I came up to brush my teeth, saw she was stirring, so thought I'd jump in and cuddle with her (I didn't have sex in my mind AT ALL). She jumped back in, and we got to it. Not only that, but she rode me like a stolen horse - not something she does very often - and had multiple orgasms in that position. Finished off in missionary, where she soaked the sheets. (apologize for the TMI, but I think it's relevant to show she was clearly 'into it'.)

I know it's only one day, but this whole 'not expecting or thinking about sex' thing may have some merit...
This is very good. You took time for her, and met her need for cuddling, with no expectation of reciprocation. And yet she reciprocated, with a full and enthusiastic heart.

Sounds like Dug and me.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #157 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:01 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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@jld so if for whatever reason Doug absolutely has to have it, but you don't think you can get in the mood, BUT you promised him some quality intimate time moments before leaving on a week-long trip....

....he then has to just be OK with helping you pack and a small hug good bye?

The truth is that you actually do "have to" have sex in your relationship, but because you are enjoying it you have not likely had to struggle with how your partner reacts over a long period of time when the two of you sexually withdraw from one another. While I am not suggesting that you experiment with stopping sex for a few months to see exactly how he behaves towards you, the dynamics of your relationship would become very toxic without sex unless the two of you found a way to work through it and "make it happen" for one another.

There is no shame in a couple that struggles and works on doing whatever it takes to make it happen and get the romance back going again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Duguesclin View Post
The answer is YES, I would have to be ok with it. I am not entitled to have sex with my wife and my wife does not have the duty to have sex with me.

Sex is like food, it is a need. But if you do not work and earn money, there will be no food on the table.

This entitlement mentality is what is wrong with humankind. I am not entitled to sex. I have sex with my wife because she wants to have sex with me. When I retire, I am not entitled to a social security check. I will get one if society feels like giving one to me.
Thanks for the reply @Duguesclin but take a moment to consider the OP's situation. She has a "responsive drive" and likely NEVER has an existing desire to initiate sex, and likely goes through life as though she would be fine without ever having sex again. I'm sure @alexm DOES work hard in his marriage, but yet things just don't happen naturally for the two of them.

What would you do in that situation? Just be OK with nothing while you wait for a moment in which a wife with a responsive desire somehow demonstrates spontaneous desire for sex (I know @jld is not like this, but place yourself in alexm shoes)? I am NOT talking about entitlement but instead the "compromises" that couples sometimes make for one another.

I was in the exact same situation with my wife that I described. She was due to head out the door in an hour, and she was very stressed having to get ready for her trip. Like you I would have been OK to just help her pack her bags and give her a hug on her way out the door. But that is not what happened! My wife knew I was desperate to be with her, and while we did not have sex, she gave me something "to think about" while she was gone, and THAT turned out to be a moment that I will never forget!

Of course I could go back and define that as a moment as a form of "duty sex" and perhaps reject it, but it was so incredible that I am unable to do so and my wife adores that she can have that effect on me even if she is not in the mood. She left with a huge grin on her face.

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post #158 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:03 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by aine View Post
I was just listening to something today about sex in marriage and the presenter said that sadly even today many women do not realise the importance of sex in a marriage, particularly to the husbands. It is a deep seated need whereas many women can go without it for some time. She said women don't get it as the don't have the same need. However, women on the other hand have a deep need to talk and connect with their husbands.
She said women who don't want to give it up should think about her husband coming home and not talking to her for 4 hours, for 4 days, for 4 weeks, for 4 months, 4 years, whatever, how would she feel?

I thought that this was an interesting perspective. However, on the other hand there are many husbands who put in little effort in meeting the needs of their wives, so should wives still give it up if she doesn't feel like it?

BTW I am not talking about myself, I enjoy that aspect too much
The wife risks developing resentment if she gives first. She also risks his never learning to take any leadership in the marriage.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #159 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:07 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by aine View Post
I was just listening to something today about sex in marriage and the presenter said that sadly even today many women do not realise the importance of sex in a marriage, particularly to the husbands. It is a deep seated need whereas many women can go without it for some time. She said women don't get it as the don't have the same need. However, women on the other hand have a deep need to talk and connect with their husbands.
She said women who don't want to give it up should think about her husband coming home and not talking to her for 4 hours, for 4 days, for 4 weeks, for 4 months, 4 years, whatever, how would she feel?

I thought that this was an interesting perspective. However, on the other hand there are many husbands who put in little effort in meeting the needs of their wives, so should wives still give it up if she doesn't feel like it?

BTW I am not talking about myself, I enjoy that aspect too much
I think this is a very good point. What happens for some, kinda like the whole chicken or the egg, H needs sex to feel emotionally connected to W to have those deep talks, etc... W needs deep talks to emotionally connect with H for sex. You run into issues where one person gets their needs met and just leaves it at that without working towards meeting the other person's needs (sometimes for selfish reasons, sometimes by no means malicious at all).
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post #160 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:16 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Haven't read all the replies beyond the initial post, but will give my thoughts. Apologies in advance if I'm echoing previous posters.

I suffer from a similar situation in my own marriage. Not only can I sympathize with OP, but I can share my experience on avoiding sex.

I avoid sex with my wife because I'm unhappy with all of the restrictions and predictability of the sex. Sex in my marriage is far from hot; it's purely physical and just going through the motions. To me, accepting that kind of sex in a marriage with the mindset that "some sex is better than no sex", is to settle for mediocre sex and pretty much ensures you'll never get better sex from your spouse. In my opinion, the upside of avoiding sex with my wife is the chance that she provides me better sex at some future time. This is only rational behavior if I believe that my wife's infrequent sex is not pity sex, because if she's not in to me, she is made no worse off by my avoidance and has no incentive to provide me with better sex. This is to say, there is only upside if she wants some level of sex with me, though a lesser amount than I would prefer. Assuming this, my upside potential in avoiding is accompanied by an unavoidable downside risk: my wife feeling rejected. If she offers me sex because she wants to have sex with me but I refuse that sex, she will feel bad. I'm OK with my wife feeling bad; I like to think both of us feeling bad about the marriage positions us better for either resolution or divorce.

I am a younger man with no children out of my marriage, and both my wife and I could do fine financially without each other, so I have very different feelings about divorce than many guys on TAM. Your situation could be different. In the event that you don't see divorce as an option, I recommend that you temporarily avoid intimacy with your wife; invest more time in hobbies, friends, and family to see if your avoidance achieves any benefits in the bedroom. At the same time, you might consider going to a marriage counselor or sex therapist with your wife. If things don't get better, and you're not open to divorce, coping will be your survival. Double up on hobbies, family, and friends to get your mind off of sex, and accept what little sex your wife provides.

That's right. I suggest you actually settle for less sex than you want in the marriage, assuming some avoidance gets you nowhere, divorce is not an option, and you need to cope somehow. I argue that open relationships, cheating, and porn are coping mechanisms for the HD person who's getting shorted on sex by the LD person, but these are destructive for the vast majority of people--they divert your attention and desires away from your spouse; they are bad. So if you must cope, do so in a constructive way and get what sex you can from the wife. Good luck!

Last edited by _anonymous_; 04-11-2017 at 04:04 PM.
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post #161 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:21 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
JLD,
I should have been clearer in my comment about control.

There is no correlation between desire level and need to control.

The post I made on that topic - should have read:

If your partner is LD and the result is that you are in a sexless marriage, that is often a matter of control.
----------------
Before getting to the explanation below - I will point out that most folks who behave very badly avoid MC and forums such as this because they KNOW at some level they can't justify their behavior. And that most LD folks who explain why they are LD with their partners - seem like decent folks dealing with a difficult set of cards - so to speak.

----------------
As for the hard core cases that are described here - the pattern appears to be:
- I'm 100% comfortable rejecting my HD partner
- I claim that THEY are the one with the problem
- I refuse to discuss the situation or try to address it
-----------------

That said - it is hard to be confident as to what is really happening - because the HDs are often very ego protective. And it is likely that being rejected - amplifies that behavior of theirs.
Totally agree with the bolded. Worth much reflection, imo.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #162 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:36 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.

[B]Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.[B]
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexm View Post
Update #2 - I could have (should have) added this yesterday while it was more current, but I didn't have the time, and wanted to respond to a couple of the replies at the time.

Sunday morning - had sex (great sex, too...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by jld View Post
This is very good. You took time for her, and met her need for cuddling, with no expectation of reciprocation. And yet she reciprocated, with a full and enthusiastic heart.

Sounds like Dug and me.
@jld but his wife restricted intimacy to the exact same one moment a week, over the weekend.

Why would she not be able to reciprocate on another day outside of this restriction?

While @alexm was not expecting sex, he was likely NOT exactly in the mood emotionally due to being so constrained with his wife always limiting sex to just on the weekends. But yet when SHE was finally in the mood (or just initiating over the weekend out of routine), he had to go along with it and make the most out of the situation because it is all he is going to get until next weekend.
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post #163 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 08:39 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by badsanta View Post
@jld but his wife restricted intimacy to the exact same one moment a week, over the weekend.

Why would she not be able to reciprocate on another day outside of this restriction?

While @alexm was not expecting sex, he was likely NOT exactly in the mood emotionally due to being so constrained with his wife always limiting sex to just on the weekends. But yet when SHE was finally in the mood (or just initiating over the weekend out of routine), he had to go along with it and make the most out of the situation because it is all he is going to get until next weekend.
What reminded me of us is that he met her need and she responded in kind. There was not a bunch of rules or resentment or entitlement to it.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #164 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 09:11 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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But the underlying threat is still there.

I don't think this is healthy.

ETA: This might help explain the concern: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...r-relationship
It is a reminder that both partners needs matter.

I know you can't fathom not meeting Dug's needs, but I would argue that puts you in a very narrow minority.

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post #165 of 1530 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 09:50 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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What reminded me of us is that he met her need and she responded in kind. There was not a bunch of rules or resentment or entitlement to it.
I would agree with you ONLY had this happened on a weekday.

Otherwise that it did adhere to her rules/routine/restrictions of sex occurring on the "weekends only." That was the exact issue that the OP addressed about when starting this thread.

Yes the sex was great and the OP did not resent her subjecting him to the weekends only. I would not call it resentment or entitlement, but instead a demonstration of patience and forgiveness that she continues to do something that causes him to struggle emotionally. While alexm describes it as a great moment, he will likely question as to why these things can't just happen more naturally on a nonrestrictive schedule and struggle with that emotionally.

So while the resentment did not happen during the moment, it may still be there later in the week, but will likely be held back with the OP's ongoing forgiveness and patience.

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