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post #1786 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 11:59 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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So several weeks ago, I arrived at the only logical solution to regaining some measure of participation in my own sex life (see original post, page 1). For the past 5, 6 years, I've been a passenger. Actually, I've been the family dog that gets excited when he hears the words "ride in the car?"

And that's been my own doing - I realize that. I've been conditioned (probably subconsciously on her part. I hope.) to respond only when I'm told to, and to otherwise (to use another dog analogy) "leave it".
I don't know if you recall me saying this before, but I've been in that position too, and I can totally empathize with it. It was very anxiety provoking to me, at the time.

But I do know and understand now that when I was in that position, my partner never meant to "make me" feel I was "put" in that position, nor wanted to train me like a dog. He was simply being true to his own sex drive, and had boundaries about it, and even though I wanted more frequency and he knew it, he also knew he was giving what he could *authentically* give.

Now that I understand this, I love and respect him all the more. Because it really was never meant to "put me in my place" or for him to control me. It was all about him honoring himself.

I can be literally like a puppy dog who is eager for luvs, and pets, and fun, and games, and more, and what's next, and I'm going to jump on your lap now, and pant pant, hey wanna play? Even though we just played? Pant pant, play play play. Ball? Car? Is there anything exciting in my future?

I understand now that my puppy energy was just fine with him and he accepted it and loved me and adored my puppy-like qualities. But he had boundaries. He didn't want me on his lap sometimes. He didn't want to play for more than 2 hours sometimes. He always loved me, never punished me, was always charmed by me and my presence, but he only did what he wanted to do and what was natural and authentic for him. (And that level was completely withing what others would consider normal, average, healthy, whatever).

At the time...I felt like a neglected puppy. I could not self soothe and I did not have the maturity to just sit and be cool about sh*t. (I'm not saying that's where you are at, just sharing). So I would try to seduce him. That never worked, because his love and lust for me were ALWAYS on display at a supreme level. There was no time that he lusted for me anymore than any other time, regardless of my actions. His level of lust for me also made no difference in his sex drive. He knew his baseline needs and followed them. My attempts at seduction did not make his need for sex higher.

I'm not saying that I didn't initiate with seduction very nicely a lot of the time...I'm talking about when I knew he wasn't up for sex but tried to seduce him into changing his mind. Never worked. He was either up for sex, or he wasn't. And I always knew when he was or wasn't, he was very transparent, never hid himself or his desires.

He explained to me quite honestly when we were first together that he could see I had a huge and high sex drive including a desired high frequency, but that he would never be able to live up to that level. He admired my huge need, he just didn't share it. He said he would always do his best but that I'd better get my expectations in check because he is who he is.

The sex with him was of such high quality (which was his biggest need and desire) that eventually I became very happy with it, in the quantities he was able to deliver authentically. He literally NEVER gave me any type of inauthentic sex. No duty or pity or "here I guess I'll give it to you because you're so damn horny all the time, you poor thing". Nothing like that. He was either feeling it, or we didn't do it. (I've never "not felt it", so there was never a time that this wasn't true for me, too). Eventually I understood and appreciated why he would only have sex with me when he authentically wanted to.

And in the long run...I was like a more mature, but healthy and devoted adult dog. I loved him, he loved me. I did not shake and turn circles in his presence, I just went to him and offered my head and he'd pet it. I did not get anxiety if he didn't pay attention to me, I didn't beg for it, I didn't try to jump on his lap. I learned to self soothe, and to just be good with the loving feelings I had inside of me (that felt like sexual feelings), whether they turned into something sexual with him in reality or not.

I can say I was only able to do this because we did have constant affection, flirting, playfulness, making out, and sexuality every day, whether it was a "sex day" or not. That fed me just enough to learn to self soothe in the long run.

In my current relationship...I've been allowed to be a puppy again. We are really compatible like that. There's no rules about when and where, I can just jump him any time. I like that. I prefer it (as long as the quality is still high). I think you said this was true in the beginning of your marriage, too. So maybe it is just the newness of a relationship that makes some of us bring our puppies out. I just think you and I would choose to be puppies throughout a relationship, not just in the beginning, if given our druthers.

But I learned so much about this from my ex. I do not want to impose my energetic puppy on anyone who doesn't want it. It is rude to do so. I have to respect people's boundaries, and I do now. I also have to not get butt hurt if they don't want me jumping on their lap. It isn't personal, it is just not something some people enjoy, while others love it.

I know I haven't shared anything that helps you....but I do think we are similar enough that you will enjoy what I did share.

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post #1787 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 12:43 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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You're definitely not a freak. One nice thing about the internet is that we all have been able to learn that there are others that share our characteristics whether positive or negative. Like I mentioned earlier, what makes you rare is that you still have a good and open attitude about this issue. I say good because you are still willing to think about and discuss this issue.

If your husband ended the marriage, what reason did he give you?
I got the ever-popular "I love you. but I'm not in love with you." At one point. he did say that he felt a need to be free of responsibility for wife and children...to be a carefree bachelor again. From my point of view, it seemed as if he had faced his mortality and freaked out and had a massive midlife crisis.

I did ask "why?" on the day he made his big announcement. I was in shock. He offered nothing that made any sense. He didn't really verbalize his point of view. Then, he moved out. and we basically haven't spoken to this day, after spending half our lives together. So I'm still trying to figure out why our family got blown up. So are the kids.
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post #1788 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 12:50 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I assume your husband cheated?
The probability is very small that it had anything to do with you (especially if he never complained, not that it would have been ok to cheat if he did complain). Some guys cheat. You are not to blame for his actions.
I did not learn that from him. I did find out afterward, though online sleuthing, that he had been hooking up with random women he met on the Internet, which horrified me, because we had been having sex all along as normal, and I was afraid of possible exposure to HIV and/or lesser diseases from these women.
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post #1789 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 01:31 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

.

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post #1790 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 03:36 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
I never said or thought that "all HD's" are sitting in a big pool of misery.

Though many are, but many are quite content, many are only sometimes bothered. Never said otherwise and no reason to think that's what I think (if you meant me in this quote). In your case in particular, from what I've gathered from your recent threads, you are pretty zen about your sitch.
My post wasn't directed at you (that is why I quoted Hope's post), more a general observation as I have seen in other threads (and this thread as well but earlier on) some comments from other posters that basically implied the people who were talking about their issues were whining or full of self pity.
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post #1791 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I know I haven't shared anything that helps you....but I do think we are similar enough that you will enjoy what I did share.
No, it does. At least to know I'm not alone (not that I ever really thought I was with such a common issue).

The funny thing is, you and I aren't similar in terms of drive, but the situations we've found ourselves in are the same. Ironically, I'd probably be your ex in your scenario! I'd probably have to implement boundaries with you, as well, lol!

But obviously that does help to understand my wife a little bit more.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #1792 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 06:38 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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My post wasn't directed at you (that is why I quoted Hope's post), more a general observation as I have seen in other threads (and this thread as well but earlier on) some comments from other posters that basically implied the people who were talking about their issues were whining or full of self pity.
Honestly, I get it. People like me have basically been posting about the same subject for, in some cases, years, with little or no change in the situation. I can see why it's frustrating for some to see the same thing over and over again.

It's obviously more complex than that, of course, but on the surface - from what others see - it's same old, same old. My signature is a direct quote from a long-time user who feels that way, as is his prerogative. But it's also not helpful, and it reminds me that some people are just miserable, and to not become so jaded over my 'problem' that I start to have that kind of mindset. All in all, life isn't bad over here in Mike Land.

I think it's only natural that somebody eventually tells you to fish or cut bait. I'm not there, and I'm not sure I ever will be. As @Hope1964 said, sometimes the marriage is otherwise very very good and this is the only 'issue'. For some of us, that issue isn't divorce-worthy. It's just ****ing frustrating. Technically speaking, it's something some of us CAN live with, but we really don't want to.

I can only speak for myself, but when I bring up this matter on TAM, I'm not wallowing in self pity. Quite the opposite, actually. When I take the time to make a post like this (no matter how repetitive it may have become to some) it means I'm determined, a little bit PO'd, and yes, need to vent a little. I'm tired of the status quo, and after years of looking to change her, it's become apparent that I need to change my own view, my own habits, my own goals, my own life.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #1793 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 07:43 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Almost all of them, though, pointed out that average doesn't necessarily imply desirability or even normality.
I majored in math. I understand the difference between mean and median. We can argue over technical definitions. We can argue whether the distribution is a bell curve or some other shape. We can argue over whether mean or median is a better predictive tool.

In any case, after we get done arguing over semantics, my point still stands. Data about other couples' behavior is unhelpful in resolving a mismatch within one particular couple. Data about other couples' behavior is only helpful in assessing the likelihood that each partner within the couple can break up the relationship and reasonably expect to find a different partner who desires sex at a rate closer to the unhappy individuals desired frequency. It may help me decide where to draw my line in the sand. It is unlikely to sway my partner to move closer to my desired spot.

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post #1794 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:03 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I got the ever-popular "I love you. but I'm not in love with you." At one point. he did say that he felt a need to be free of responsibility for wife and children...to be a carefree bachelor again. From my point of view, it seemed as if he had faced his mortality and freaked out and had a massive midlife crisis.

I did ask "why?" on the day he made his big announcement. I was in shock. He offered nothing that made any sense. He didn't really verbalize his point of view. Then, he moved out. and we basically haven't spoken to this day, after spending half our lives together. So I'm still trying to figure out why our family got blown up. So are the kids.
That's hard to fathom and I can only imagine how difficult to deal with, especially with children involved. I won't ask anymore questions in this thread, but I encourage you to start a new thread about your situation (if you have not done so already).
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post #1795 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:24 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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My post wasn't directed at you (that is why I quoted Hope's post), more a general observation as I have seen in other threads (and this thread as well but earlier on) some comments from other posters that basically implied the people who were talking about their issues were whining or full of self pity.
But the post you quoted from Hope was directed to me....and then you commented on what Hope was saying to me in basic agreement with her. Therefore the confusion.

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post #1796 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:33 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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But the post you quoted from Hope was directed to me....and then you commented on what Hope was saying to me in basic agreement with her. Therefore the confusion.
Is there a rule for when we quote/reply to a post, how far back the quote chain to look back before an early poster is off the hook

Like I said, I was just replying to Hope's comment about "sitting in misery" and a general observation I have made in other threads like this one. No more, no less.
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post #1797 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:36 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by alexm View Post
I think it's only natural that somebody eventually tells you to fish or cut bait. I'm not there, and I'm not sure I ever will be. As @Hope1964 said, sometimes the marriage is otherwise very very good and this is the only 'issue'. For some of us, that issue isn't divorce-worthy. It's just ****ing frustrating. Technically speaking, it's something some of us CAN live with, but we really don't want to.
. . . .
I'm tired of the status quo, and after years of looking to change her, it's become apparent that I need to change my own view, my own habits, my own goals, my own life.
Yes, this, so much this. I can live with it, but I don't like it. And the only one I can change is me.

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post #1798 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:36 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Someone posts something that's a small issue in their life overall, they even SAY it's a small issue, and TAM blows it into cause for divorce and a restraining order. This thread didn't get derailed QUITE that far, but I've seen it happen.

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You could change too. It's just that easy.
Is there some reason you think I haven't?

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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
I did not specifically point out either you or Alex, and I fully understand your positions, and never took issue with it.

Sorry if you didn't like what I wrote...but don't put words in my mouth.
You're posting on Alex's thread. Who am I supposed to think you're talking to?? I didn't put words in your mouth, I quoted you. I'm allowed to disagree with you, you know.

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Originally Posted by EllisRedding View Post
The key here as well, just because people are here venting does not mean they are sitting in a big pool of misery. Heck, I thought that was part of the reason for this thread, to give Alex a chance to talk things out, get feedback from those who have gone through or are going through similar situations.
Exactly. It would sure be nice if people addressed what's being addressed and didn't just try to push their own agendas. I know, I know, that's a pipe dream

People don't get a free pass to cheat just because their marriage sucks.

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post #1799 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:56 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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You're posting on Alex's thread. Who am I supposed to think you're talking to?? I didn't put words in your mouth, I quoted you. I'm allowed to disagree with you, you know.



Exactly. It would sure be nice if people addressed what's being addressed and didn't just try to push their own agendas. I know, I know, that's a pipe dream
What you quoted of mine was from the middle of a back-and-forth I was having with someone else and was not directed at anyone's situation. But again, feel free to take it personally and assume you know what I meant and what my intention was, as you've clearly done.

Some people actually are sitting in misery over this issue, I did not name anyone who is, and I didn't even mean that anyone on this thread is. I was talking about the topic in general (which would have been obvious if you had read more than the one post of mine you quoted). But instead you immediately decided I was talking about you and alex.

You can disagree with me, but you can't impose what you think I meant over what I actually meant. So you will be disagreeing with something I never meant, but feel free.

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post #1800 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:36 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Yes, I've tried that. Let her know that its getting late. Her response is always that there is plenty of time - followed by the inevitable "I'm sorry, I'm really feeling tired now".

Yes, I could say "I told you it was getting late", or "that is what you've said the last half dozen times", but why. She clearly doesn't want sex at the point, so I'm not going to pressure her into it.

I'm convinced that if I did tell her at the outset that she keeps doing this, she would just find some more important task she *had* to do.

I think she starts out thinking that she will want sex later - after all there is no reason not to, but discoveres that she doesn't when the time comes.


She has never commented on my being passive. I expect she likes it. Certainly she gets unhappy when I disagree with her about doing pretty much anything. The thing is, I'm easy to please, so I don't see any point starting an argument over where to eat, or any of the many other trivial decisions we make - I don't want to pretend something matters to me when it doesn't.

On the occasional things that matter, I won't budge. Sometimes it creates big problems, sometimes not.

Her complaints about my behavior over the years pretty much are:

I work too much - used to be true, but my job changed over time so that I no longer work crazy shifts, and haven't for many years.

I interrupt her - She interrupts me a roughly equal amount, but I've been sure to stop doing it - though it makes conversations more awkward,

I don't listen - That I can't fix - I'll be working on something and she will start talking, but not have succeeded at grabbing my attention

Its not her *fault*. She can't change what she is. I can't change what I am further than I have already done. I can live like this or leave. I've decided to stay, but complain on TAM. So TAM readers get the brunt of my frustration.





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Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
There is also an element of your passivity here. You clearly refuse to point out when she repeatedly says "let's get to bed early so we can have sex" and then stays up late doing something else. You are the one playing the board game with her, right? So why didn't you stop in the middle of it and say "no, this will make it too late for sex, and I'd rather have sex, let's go". For some reason this type of "control" you might exhibit is something you don't want to do. It doesn't come natural to you or whatever reason.

I understand she is controlling in general and believe you. But what you are bringing to the table not only enables what she's bringing, it also seems to be in the same proportion to what she is bringing.

So her need for control = your need to be passive.

I am not suggesting you stop being passive, and I'm sure you've tried that before. I'm just pointing out that you are both contributing to your sexual dynamic. The main difference between you two is that she's happy with that dynamic and you aren't. Is it her "fault" that you are unhappy, when what you "have" is the same as what she has but it makes her happy? I'm sure you know that you are making a choice and don't blame her completely. But I do always read in your posts a sense that you still think she could and should "do more to make you happy", which is another way of saying "if she was different, I could be happy". And another way of saying "if she would change, I would be happy". And another way "I want her to change".

As @Wildejade said earlier, why wouldn't you instead say "I want to change"? There's that underlying message that she is at fault and is doing this to you without your consent.

But your passivity IS your consent. You just don't like the results.

A question for you...has she ever voiced any complaint with you or your marriage? If so, what was it, at what time in your marriage was it, and was it something you could address? And did you address it? And more specifically, has she ever said anything about your passive nature, good or bad?
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