Thoughts on this - Page 121 - Talk About Marriage
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post #1801 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 11:00 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Holdingontoit View Post
I majored in math. I understand the difference between mean and median. We can argue over technical definitions. We can argue whether the distribution is a bell curve or some other shape. We can argue over whether mean or median is a better predictive tool.

In any case, after we get done arguing over semantics, my point still stands. Data about other couples' behavior is unhelpful in resolving a mismatch within one particular couple. Data about other couples' behavior is only helpful in assessing the likelihood that each partner within the couple can break up the relationship and reasonably expect to find a different partner who desires sex at a rate closer to the unhappy individuals desired frequency. It may help me decide where to draw my line in the sand. It is unlikely to sway my partner to move closer to my desired spot.
errrr, dude, I was *agreeing* with you, not arguing.
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post #1802 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-07-2017, 12:53 PM
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Thoughts on this

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What you quoted of mine was from the middle of a back-and-forth I was having with someone else and was not directed at anyone's situation. But again, feel free to take it personally and assume you know what I meant and what my intention was, as you've clearly done.



Some people actually are sitting in misery over this issue, I did not name anyone who is, and I didn't even mean that anyone on this thread is. I was talking about the topic in general (which would have been obvious if you had read more than the one post of mine you quoted). But instead you immediately decided I was talking about you and alex.



You can disagree with me, but you can't impose what you think I meant over what I actually meant. So you will be disagreeing with something I never meant, but feel free.


Just an observation but something I noticed happens not infrequently: you mention something in a passive form (grammatically), while it's pretty self evident who and what you mean, but when you realise that perhaps it was too confrontational or maybe over the top, you either retrace your steps ('don't put words in my mouth') or change the tack so that this negative that you were just criticising, suddenly becomes a positive & something you like in people... It makes it difficult to read/understand the tone of your original posts correctly (for me at least).
Maybe it's a forum thing.




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post #1803 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-07-2017, 01:34 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
Yes, I've tried that. Let her know that its getting late. Her response is always that there is plenty of time - followed by the inevitable "I'm sorry, I'm really feeling tired now".



Yes, I could say "I told you it was getting late", or "that is what you've said the last half dozen times", but why. She clearly doesn't want sex at the point, so I'm not going to pressure her into it.



I'm convinced that if I did tell her at the outset that she keeps doing this, she would just find some more important task she *had* to do.



I think she starts out thinking that she will want sex later - after all there is no reason not to, but discoveres that she doesn't when the time comes.





She has never commented on my being passive. I expect she likes it. Certainly she gets unhappy when I disagree with her about doing pretty much anything. The thing is, I'm easy to please, so I don't see any point starting an argument over where to eat, or any of the many other trivial decisions we make - I don't want to pretend something matters to me when it doesn't.



On the occasional things that matter, I won't budge. Sometimes it creates big problems, sometimes not.



Her complaints about my behavior over the years pretty much are:



I work too much - used to be true, but my job changed over time so that I no longer work crazy shifts, and haven't for many years.



I interrupt her - She interrupts me a roughly equal amount, but I've been sure to stop doing it - though it makes conversations more awkward,



I don't listen - That I can't fix - I'll be working on something and she will start talking, but not have succeeded at grabbing my attention



Its not her *fault*. She can't change what she is. I can't change what I am further than I have already done. I can live like this or leave. I've decided to stay, but complain on TAM. So TAM readers get the brunt of my frustration.

Is it possible to tell her explicitly that you want to **** her first and then play the board games/go on holiday/wear sexy lingerie etc? 'First we need to save our marriage, honey. Now take your clothes off.'

Is it wrong to show when one is desperate?
This applies to Alex too: why is it ok to show sexual desperation at the beginning of a relationship but not in the middle of it? (Referencing to when you said that things used to be simpler in the beginning. They were also simpler for you btw).

I have a feeling she might waiting for a clear sign that you actually want to have sex with her (back to uhtred). Bouncing the idea around in the room a bit waiting till someone shows a clear indication - ('it's getting late' maybe an ok move in Britain where I live, where everyone is polite and drinks tea all day long, but not in the general world, I would have thought -
It seems a bit unclear to me (sorry if I got it wrong) why you play board games with her which don't involve sex. Too considerate maybe?

After a week of no sex, I literally tell my wife that my balls are blue colour and if she doesn't open her legs, there will be an explosion.
(Ok that has to be done semi-jokingly).
But I think some women enjoy knowing when their husband is desperate. I don't think it's necessarily a weakness to show sexual frustration. Nor does it have to be a 'control' thing on woman's part.
It could be a straightforward 'game'.

Alex feels frustrated to always be in the passenger's seat but did you know that all the control can come from the 'passive' backseat driver? :-) you have the power to accept or reject her schedule thingy.

My guess is this behaviour becomes 'conditioned' when too many rejections have taken place. My advice: unless there's a valid reason to be rejected (illness etc), don't accept it. Make a fuss/confront. You carry it around with you and end up in a vicious circle.
I know I make it sound unreasonably easy. There are clearly cases where it's not straightforward (i.e. Rape histories etc, asexuality etc).


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Last edited by inmyprime; 05-07-2017 at 02:06 PM.
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post #1804 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-07-2017, 02:32 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

PS: That crude/humorous approach may also not work for every type of person of course. I am not sure it might be effective in far's case: she might not be open to that kind of humour.
I think it might work in uhtred's case (since she likes board games and might be open to playfulness...) and possibly alexm's (if frequency becomes an issue).
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post #1805 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-07-2017, 03:10 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Yep, this. It's a quandary of my own doing - I know this. I've always known this. The frequency is... fine. I'd prefer more often, but hey, once a week at my age, with our schedules - okay.

But, it's just that - it's on her terms. Always on her terms. I feel like I'm along for a ride. A good ride, once a week... but a ride nonetheless.

So for me, I look at it this way - not everything has to be mutual in our marriage. There are things I'm happy being a passenger for, there are things I'm more comfortable being in the drivers seat for. These things, AFAIK, are mutually acceptable to the two of us. We each have our strengths and weaknesses, and we delegate accordingly.

This, I have no say in. It's been made abundantly clear to me that my opinion, my needs, my preferences, are moot.

So several weeks ago, I arrived at the only logical solution to regaining some measure of participation in my own sex life (see original post, page 1). For the past 5, 6 years, I've been a passenger. Actually, I've been the family dog that gets excited when he hears the words "ride in the car?"

And that's been my own doing - I realize that. I've been conditioned (probably subconsciously on her part. I hope.) to respond only when I'm told to, and to otherwise (to use another dog analogy) "leave it".
I think you are being too hard on yourself. But also that you might be making a mole out of an anthill. I mean when you write things like "It's been made abundantly clear to me that my opinion, my needs, my preferences, are moot." I am really not sure you are being fair to her.

When she jumps into bed naked: that's initiating and wanting sex with you. 100%.
The only thing I can see is the Saturday schedule thing and this is due to her work schedule/her life, yet your phrasing implies that it's her. Can you not look it from the perspective that her work/life makes it more difficult to think about sex on other days and let her personally off the hook?
Ask yourself this: if she didn't work, which days of the week do you think you'd be having sex on?
Yes: it would be the 'wheel of fortune' day. Just like when you go on holidays and have sex.

We all have stuff in our lives that interferes with other stuff. I have to be away about 70% of the time on trips I am sure my wife doesn't think that it's me, who didn't leave her a choice in this but just the way our lives are set up? @Faithful Wife said a relevant thing about one of her relationships: that it's not deliberate from the partner's side and it's 'not meant to put you in your place'. I have been going on about projection of intentions way too much but in your case it still applies. (In other cases, compromise is needed).
In fact in your case, I would argue that it's even more clear cut than hers: you don't even know for sure that your wife's current sex frequency would be significantly lower than yours, if your lives/her work were set up differently.
I kind of started getting that impression when you were IMO (mis)labelling her :-) (ND etc while describing your sex lives. The guy who came up with these terms even posted on this thread somewhere.
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post #1806 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-07-2017, 04:35 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Other than being physically away, there has never been anything in my work/life which has interfered with sex .

Oh, you were talking about his wife . I doubt any amount of life rearranging would have any effect on frequency for the LD wife. Possibly slightly change the slope of the line but it always starts in the upper left pre-marriage and trends to zero on the lower right. Add break points @ 2 years, completion of child bearing then menopause and you've got the line. Slight flattening for a few months post periodic 'talks'.

The hilarious thing is how long it takes us to recognize the pattern.
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post #1807 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-07-2017, 04:53 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

But he wrote that on holiday, they can have sex any day, multiple times a week. That's the reason I asked about it further up the thread. She's clearly a different type of LD. And maybe not even an LD at all, who knows.

Yes, an LD spouse who refuses to make any effort*/find a compromise somewhere may require a totally different approach.

*And I don't care if some people think I am being too harsh on LDs. It doesn't mean one has to exclude all other causes, including one of the most important ones to look at first: yourself.
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post #1808 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-07-2017, 05:14 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
Btw the objectifying stuff: do you mind explaining why you enjoy it?
My wife seems to love it (and I always felt quite natural with it but afterwards I lie in bed wondering if it's maybe a form of personality disorder or maybe something happened in her life that she's not telling me about. Because she's so different in real life, outside of sex. Obviously I would never tell her these things because I don't want to make her uncomfortable about it or to kill the golden goose as they say .

And I do enjoy it too but a lot of it is because I get such strong feed back (she seems to get strongest orgasms from being objectified, sometimes pretty rough ). I can also play sub sometimes but not for very long. While I don't think she can be dom at all. I dunno.
'Romantic sex' rarely did anything at all for her in any case...
Just caught up on this loooong thread and wanted to answer this. I enjoy being dominated (objectified) sexually (in private). In fact, I need it.

The reason is because IRL I work with men exclusively and to avoid unwanted interactions and garner respect I have to “front” being calm, assertive (dominant) and repress my femininity. My hobbies are also more typically “male” hobbies.

Having to maintain this "front" day in and day out is emotionally exhausting. And so, in my private sexual life I let my submissive and feminine side free. Basically it keeps my life in some sort of balance.

So yes, if you knew me IRL you would never guess that I am very sexual and sexually submissive.

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to the stranger who has loved you all your life,
whom you have ignored for another . . .
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post #1809 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 06:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

You're not wrong about the scheduling thing. I've always known that in the back of my mind.

The only thing I don't agree with is the labelling/mislabelling. She describes herself as ND (or rather, asexual - but I actually disagree with the asexual part).

In any case, we discussed this topic a few years ago, and long story short, she claims she's never had desire before, ever. She doesn't understand the concept of being horny. Until she bought a sex toy at a party her friend had, she had never once masturbated. And even after buying the toy, it only lasted a couple of months (seems like it was more experimental than anything, a new sensation, and more novel than sexual. I don't think she's masturbated solo in a couple of years now).

Anyway, I don't believe she's asexual or NO desire, but I do think she's the very definition of responsive desire. But responsive only when there's agreed-upon physical touch, if you know what I mean. She has to know it's coming, has to prepare for it. It has to be on the agenda, I guess.

And I have difficulty understanding this (not that I have to, I know that now) because she's not like this with anything else. So there's a block of some sort when it comes to sex, and it can never be impulsive, on-the-fly, unplanned, whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
I think you are being too hard on yourself. But also that you might be making a mole out of an anthill. I mean when you write things like "It's been made abundantly clear to me that my opinion, my needs, my preferences, are moot." I am really not sure you are being fair to her.

When she jumps into bed naked: that's initiating and wanting sex with you. 100%.
The only thing I can see is the Saturday schedule thing and this is due to her work schedule/her life, yet your phrasing implies that it's her. Can you not look it from the perspective that her work/life makes it more difficult to think about sex on other days and let her personally off the hook?
Ask yourself this: if she didn't work, which days of the week do you think you'd be having sex on?
Yes: it would be the 'wheel of fortune' day. Just like when you go on holidays and have sex.

We all have stuff in our lives that interferes with other stuff. I have to be away about 70% of the time on trips I am sure my wife doesn't think that it's me, who didn't leave her a choice in this but just the way our lives are set up? @Faithful Wife said a relevant thing about one of her relationships: that it's not deliberate from the partner's side and it's 'not meant to put you in your place'. I have been going on about projection of intentions way too much but in your case it still applies. (In other cases, compromise is needed).
In fact in your case, I would argue that it's even more clear cut than hers: you don't even know for sure that your wife's current sex frequency would be significantly lower than yours, if your lives/her work were set up differently.
I kind of started getting that impression when you were IMO (mis)labelling her :-) (ND etc while describing your sex lives. The guy who came up with these terms even posted on this thread somewhere.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #1810 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Red Sonja View Post
Just caught up on this loooong thread and wanted to answer this. I enjoy being dominated (objectified) sexually (in private). In fact, I need it.

The reason is because IRL I work with men exclusively and to avoid unwanted interactions and garner respect I have to “front” being calm, assertive (dominant) and repress my femininity. My hobbies are also more typically “male” hobbies.

Having to maintain this "front" day in and day out is emotionally exhausting. And so, in my private sexual life I let my submissive and feminine side free. Basically it keeps my life in some sort of balance.

So yes, if you knew me IRL you would never guess that I am very sexual and sexually submissive.
I've long thought this about my wife. She, too, is in an exclusively male work environment (well, a few women, but not in her dept. AT ALL).

I can be dominant-ish, but I haven't really seen much difference when I am. I have also pushed the envelope a few times over the years, and that hasn't seemed to generate a positive response. Maybe I came across as fake, I don't know.

IRL, I'm neither dominant nor submissive, truly. I can be both at times, but I'm really just in the middle. Same with my wife, TBH. We both just go with the flow most of the time. Our sex is extremely similar. Neither one takes charge, neither one sits back. It couldn't be more mutual.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #1811 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 07:36 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

@alexm, I think you'd find your wife a whole lot easier to understand it you would just believe her.

Why are you so determined that she be responsive desire and submissive? Nothing you have said through this whole long thread indicates she is either in any way, and yet you keep coming back to it over and over, trying to wedge that square peg into the round hole that you've made for her.

I don't get it. Why not just believe her, and all of a sudden just about everything will make perfect sense.
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post #1812 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 07:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

Update: Bit of a "fail" weekend, but... meh.

Friday, house to ourselves. Had a fun evening out with friends, got home early enough, but she passed out before anything could happen. No big deal. I was up for a few hours after she was, so I was a little frustrated, but not at her.

Saturday, a bit of a cluster-fudge. Out with friends again, and home a bit later than I had hoped for, but all good. Said she was going up to bed, so I guess I expected the usual Saturday night. Came up 5 or so minutes later only to find her in bed, lights out. Awake enough to mumble good night and tell me to come back to bed in the morning and 'wake her up'. I went back downstairs and watched some baseball. Frustrated, but not upset.

Sunday morning - did as she had asked me. I'm almost always up before her on weekends, and I putter around, put the coffee on, etc. By the time I went back upstairs to wake her up (nudge, nudge, wink, wink!) she had gotten out of bed already. Probably missed her by a minute or two. I made it pretty clear, non-verbally, that I was not up there to get dressed, but she proceeded to do so, then brush her teeth, etc. Oh well!

Sunday night, not long before bed, it got the best of me, and I straight up asked her "so, are we going to **** tonight or what?" (I was smiling when I said this, btw. And yes, those are the exact words I used!) And she said, very coyly "welllll... okay!". So we did.

Not ideal for me, but I'll take it. I've stuck to my guns about being whiny or meek. And even though I DID ask, I didn't "ask".

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post #1813 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 08:01 AM
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Thoughts on this

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Last edited by TheTruthHurts; 05-16-2017 at 02:34 PM.
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post #1814 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 08:06 AM
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Thoughts on this

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Last edited by TheTruthHurts; 05-16-2017 at 02:34 PM.
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post #1815 of 1926 (permalink) Old 05-08-2017, 09:27 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

@alexm: I know you know this, but you are too nice. Why did you go downstairs and putter? You should have peed, brushed your teeth, used some mouthwash, sprayed on some cologne (if A2 like that) and woken her up as soon as you were no longer stinky. She told you to wake her up. You chose not to. Fail is entirely on you.

If you wake her up and she said "I meant at 7, not 5:30" you have your marching orders for the following weekend. But you still move forward at 5:30, or ask what time she wants you to wake her up if she prefers to roll over and go back to sleep. You are allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good enough.

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