Thoughts on this - Page 17 - Talk About Marriage
Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

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post #241 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 11:27 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by alexm View Post
It's really just that she doesn't repay me in the way that I desire, despite being told so. I don't mean 'repay' like she owes me anything, I just mean in the marital needs idea of things. It's generally what we married folk are supposed to do - meet my needs, I'll meet yours. Instead, she repeatedly 'repays' me in the way that SHE would want to be repaid. We go in circles about this all the time. It's not that I don't appreciate her appreciation for me, it's just not in the manner that I respond to - it's hers. It'd be like if she did something super thoughtful and nice for me, and my way of saying thanks and showing her my appreciation was to 'treat' her to some amazing oral sex.
You know... you and I are much in the same pattern with sexual frequency.

While opinions forge forward, what matters most is effort... best it can be delivered from one side and acceptance from the other.

I cannot tell you what you should or should not appreciate, that would be misplaced on my part. But I can tell you that the way you place this is far different than she sees it and has for many things.

You know she sees your love different, you know you have a much more romantic view, you believe she doesn't see marrying her first love as you do, you fear she used up her passion...

Yet you know she loves you, enjoys you, is committed to you.

What you are attempting to focus on thinking that you are missing out... is something you're missing out on.

Once you get past this, and you will, it will be a lot easier to focus on your blessings.

नमस्ते 🙏

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post #242 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 11:34 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

At risk of being a buzz kill......

Having sex - 'when you don't want to' is - let's freeze the frame right there. And I mean - right there.

I love this phrase because it - is common and yet subject to a frighteningly wide interpretation: When you don't want to

At one end of the spectrum it simply means a lack of desire to do - whatever.

At the other end it means - you actively prefer to NOT do the activity in question.

If this is simply a matter of responsive desire - you have a very real chance at making it all work well.

If however, this is sexual aversion, whole different story.

A low key conversation about responsive desire - that includes the theme of reciprocity - can be a very positive first step.

Let's fool around for a while and see if nature takes its course. If it does - great. If not - we can stop.

For that to work a few things must be true:
- Trust (that if it is a bust you won't just stop - but you will shrug it off)
- Good will - this is just a generalized marital vibe - that comes from a high level of synchronization/collaboration

If your partner perceives sex as something you do WITH them, as opposed to TO them, this isn't stressful. Reason is simple. If the former - you won't WANT to proceed - if it isn't really happening for them. A good partner won't just know that (in their head) they will believe it (in their heart).

Aversion is a totally different and largely unsolvable issue. Doesn't matter WHY someone feels that way - just that they do.




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That's just the thing. You don't understand how others feel about sex. But, if they told you, you'd do your best to give them what they want (to the degree that you were capable and you felt they were deserving of your best efforts).

That's the thing with Alex and Ultred's wives. Any reasonable person would think that their wive's know what they need/want.

There's still a chance they don't really (I know this from personal experience).

People like Alex, Ultred, Ellis & me think it should be obvious. After all, we would have gotten it by now.

So that's the case for making 100% sure that they understand. But, it can't just be talk. There have to be actions as well.

And no whining!
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post #243 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 11:37 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I don't see a judge ordering sexual relations anywhere in there, john. Nor his or her standing over anyone (with a police officer nearby, ready to arrest) insisting it happen.

Marital relations are ultimately voluntary.
Sigh.

The fact it's a prime cause for divorce should tell you how the courts see it.
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post #244 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 01:01 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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A good partner won't just know that (in their head) they will believe it (in their heart).

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post #245 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 05:59 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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So... what if you take that feeling bad out of the equation and set a boundary that foregoes a doormat status?

One can be a nice guy and not be a doormat... where does that place one?
Of course one can be a nice guy without being a "nice guy". What I am doing is asserting a boundary.

When I am asked (or as it would be, frequently expected) to do loving acts for her while she gives excuses as she foregoes loving acts in return, it trips a boundary, and I stop giving as much.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley

Last edited by farsidejunky; 04-11-2017 at 06:14 AM.
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post #246 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:13 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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As to your "solution" . . .

Far, I think you are getting caught up in "right-fighting," or "rights-fighting." I do not think this is going to lead to long term marital satisfaction.

It is like you are on a marital ship that has sprung a leak, and you are insisting on only bailing out the ship what you perceive to be your "share" of the time.

It doesn't work that way, far. Not for mature people. Mature people simply do what needs to be done, according to their ability to do it.

If one person is capable of plugging the hole and scooping up all the water and throwing it overboard, to help the ship regain balance, that is what he or she does. They don't worry about "fairness" and "equality." They worry about getting the ship up and running again. They know that is what is ultimately going to help everyone--themselves included.
The point you are missing is that sometimes one gets so tired of plugging holes and bailing water(while the other is distracted with something far less important) that they are willing to allow the ship to take on water, to the point that it very may well sink. I am willing to lose the ship if her other priorities are so important as to ignore the water pouring in, as she expects me to continue to pitch water.

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Please consider that by engaging in this withdrawal technique, you may risk jeopardizing the long term emotional connection that you and your wife need to maintain a stable and satisfying marriage.

I understand you may feel powerless at times with your wife's lack of inspiration towards meeting your sexual desires. It is understandable that you would want to get even.

Understandable, but not very mature. And in the long term, likely counterproductive.
This "getting even" thing is another attempt at mischaracterization. I will not continue to do for one who is capable but chooses not to because it causes me to not only resent her, but also to get mad at myself. I get tired of feeling that way. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see Alex's situation much the same, although in fairness it could be projection. Their marriage seems mostly good with a very narrow comfort zone from her in the sex department.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #247 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Alex - I'm reading along on this thread because as I mentioned before, I suspect I'm pretty similar to your wife's position (although my H and I do not have a verbally scheduled sex date that we keep).

Have you ever actually talked to her about any of this? I'm talking about a lay-all-the-cards-on-the-table talk. Maybe you have and it got you nowhere. I'm just curious to know what she has to say about all of this. And curious to know if she REALLY knows how you feel.

As the LD, I cannot actually EMPATHIZE with my husband (I do not get the same things out of sex that he does, and I do not have the same level of baseline desire that he does.) I can only guess what he's thinking or feeling at any given time. That is really hard. Unless he speaks to me about it, I'm kind of in the dark, because I really don't have that same need or desire that he does so I cannot imagine how he feels.

A really big obstacle in my marriage has been getting my H to actually talk in plain words about what he wants, or even more importantly, what he DOESN'T want. I do not consider myself to be an evil witch out to make him miserable and overall I'd say we have a decent marriage (and honestly, it sounds like you and your wife do too). But there have been many times where he just seems to expect me to know what he wants or what he's thinking without ever telling me. You often hear people say women do this - but men do it too, and I primarily find out once he's reached the end of his rope and proceeds to get angry at me. I'm not stupid...(I think?)... but I sure feel that way sometimes when we get to the point where he's losing it, and I am getting hit by a train that I didn't see coming!

My point: If my H and I had made an agreement to sex on a certain frequency, and for weeks upon weeks it appeared to be working for him and he was happy, I would keep doing it expecting the same results unless he told me he wanted something different. So, have you told her?

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Yes, we've talked, and she knows my stance, and doesn't disagree with it, either.

For my wife, I believe it is two-fold: There is a certain element of LD to her, for sure, but I largely believe it to be manufactured. What she is, I think, is responsive desire. I believe that in her past (long before me, I might add) she went with the flow. Partner initiated sex, she had sex, and enjoyed it as much as the rest of us enjoy sex.

However, like just about anybody (especially women), she had some negative experiences with sex, particularly guys who only wanted her for that. She doesn't talk much about her past, but that has been one thing she's mentioned on more than one occasion - only being wanted for sex. That is a familiar complaint for many women, and I'm not sure there's a whole lot of you who can't say you've had at least one experience where you've felt this is the case.

Long story short, I tend to believe that she embraced her responsive desire once upon a time. And by the time we started dating she had consciously or subconsciously implemented these parameters on her sexuality. As in she will not 'give in' every time a guy tries to initiate sex.

So - control of her sexuality, something she likely did not feel at certain points in her life. She wants to be loved and wanted and desired for other reasons. With me, she is, obviously. But old habits die hard?

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #248 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:25 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Far, I know you have a good heart. I know you are a sincere person. And these things make me have a good feeling about you overall.

But when I read some of your responses, I can understand the frustration your wife must feel with you.

If you would like to hear my thoughts on that, let me know. I will not get into it if you do not want to.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #249 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:29 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Yes, we've talked, and she knows my stance, and doesn't disagree with it, either.

For my wife, I believe it is two-fold: There is a certain element of LD to her, for sure, but I largely believe it to be manufactured. What she is, I think, is responsive desire. I believe that in her past (long before me, I might add) she went with the flow. Partner initiated sex, she had sex, and enjoyed it as much as the rest of us enjoy sex.

However, like just about anybody (especially women), she had some negative experiences with sex, particularly guys who only wanted her for that. She doesn't talk much about her past, but that has been one thing she's mentioned on more than one occasion - only being wanted for sex. That is a familiar complaint for many women, and I'm not sure there's a whole lot of you who can't say you've had at least one experience where you've felt this is the case.

Long story short, I tend to believe that she embraced her responsive desire once upon a time. And by the time we started dating she had consciously or subconsciously implemented these parameters on her sexuality. As in she will not 'give in' every time a guy tries to initiate sex.

So - control of her sexuality, something she likely did not feel at certain points in her life. She wants to be loved and wanted and desired for other reasons. With me, she is, obviously. But old habits die hard?
I certainly think she embraced her responsive desire the other day!

And that is because you made it possible for her. You made it safe.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #250 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:43 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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As many of you know, my wife is quite LD. Over the past couple of years, we seem to have settled in on once a week intimacy, and it pretty much happens only on one day of the week, over the weekend. Pretty much around the same time, as well.

Throughout the rest of week - nothing. Nothing sexual, no flirtiness, no build-up, etc. It is what it is.

Generally speaking, I am fine with this - the sex is actually good, and it's not one-sided.

However, I am getting tired of this 'schedule'. Knowing it's going to happen (without any build-up whatsoever, even right before). I know it's going to happen, and when. I do still try to initiate throughout the rest of the week on occasion, but more often than not (way more often), it's rejected.

So basically 95% of my sex life is on one day of the week, around the same time, and absolutely zero sex or even sexuality the rest of the time.

Yes, I've talked to her about this. She knows I don't like this scheduled/expected sex life. It removes any sort of anticipation or excitement from it. And even though the sex is good, it winds up being almost purely physical for me, because all the other things around sex are simply removed. In essence, it's basically just going through the motions.

I'm at the point now where I simply don't want this anymore, but I'm at a crossroads about what to do. My only recourse that I can see at this point in time is to reject and/or avoid these scheduled sessions, but in all likelihood it'd backfire. I'm just not enthusiastic about it anymore, even though it's my only real sexual outlet.

There have been 4 or 5 times in the past 2 weeks in which we were home alone for extended periods of time. An entire weekend, even. This is rare for that to happen this often. No sex during this time, and even the 'free' weekend, it still ended up happening on the same day at the same time. I hinted, initiated, even bluntly said "hey, let's go upstairs" - nothing.

I'm not trying to figure out my wife - I already know what she is. This has been discussed ad nauseum here, and also with her. But the reality is that I'm starting to feel used, if that's even possible. It's always on her schedule - a literal schedule, at that. The only reason I've kept going on her schedule is that it's sex, and I want to have sex. But I'm simply tired of the way it goes down, and the fact that it's figuratively marked on a calendar.

So this weekend, I've planned to avoid. It's baseball season (yay!), so I have an excuse to not come to bed. I'm torn to whether or not she'll care, or if she does, if she says anything. I've rejected her in the past a minute amount of times, and she generally hasn't taken it well, but I've had legitimate excuses (total exhaustion, mainly). But I've never said no to, or avoided sex with her when I'm feeling fine.

It's juvenile, but it's also pretty last ditch. It's likely it won't help things, but I'm at the point now where I'm genuinely tired of simply doing it on her schedule. I also feel (well, know, really) that she obviously requires this schedule to become aroused and/or psyched up to have sex.
I wouldn't do it (withhold). You will suffer more. If she cares about you and your relationship, you have to tell her exactly what you have written here and how it affects you. I think the problem is often how to make the spouse understand what's a big deal and not feel embarrassed about it.
She can make up her own schedule in her head, make it irregular and pick days on her own in advance, if that's what she needs to get going, just not let you know what it is and when it's coming, then to you it will feel spontaneous and she will have time to build it up in her mind (I think my wife is similar). If she genuinely cares, she will make the effort.
Is she Christian? It seems the bible has a verse about having a duty to care about those things (we are both atheists so it doesn't work for us :-) From spending too much time on the faith boards to pass time, it seems to me a very handy to use bible as leverage :-)
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post #251 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I certainly think she embraced her responsive desire the other day!

And that is because you made it possible for her. You made it safe.
Yes, absolutely. It is not gone for good.

What I mean, though, is perhaps in her past she would have been capable of having sex daily, or even more, depending on how often her partner would initiate.

What it currently is, is once a week, and it's still responsive desire, but she limits herself to this one time. I still have to initiate on this day. I still had to initiate on Sunday.

That one day a week has become the defacto "it's okay to sexually touch me/kiss me deeply/initiate sex with me because I'll be responsive" day. Every other day is off limits for this. If I try to kiss her deeply on, say, a Tuesday, she will, but will also pull away after a few seconds, for example. It's like an alarm goes off in her head that says "It's not Saturday! It's not Saturday! Abort! Abort!"

The longer I've been with her, the more I think I'm starting to understand this to be the case. If I go to kiss her deeply on a Tuesday, I'm not actually looking for sex. I just want to make out with my wife. I used to think she just assumes I'm after sex - I'm not so sure any more. I think it's entirely possible that if we make out, SHE'LL want sex, and that's a no-no.

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post #252 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:48 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Yes, absolutely. It is not gone for good.

What I mean, though, is perhaps in her past she would have been capable of having sex daily, or even more, depending on how often her partner would initiate.

What it currently is, is once a week, and it's still responsive desire, but she limits herself to this one time. I still have to initiate on this day. I still had to initiate on Sunday.

That one day a week has become the defacto "it's okay to sexually touch me/kiss me deeply/initiate sex with me because I'll be responsive" day. Every other day is off limits for this. If I try to kiss her deeply on, say, a Tuesday, she will, but will also pull away after a few seconds, for example. It's like an alarm goes off in her head that says "It's not Saturday! It's not Saturday! Abort! Abort!"

The longer I've been with her, the more I think I'm starting to understand this to be the case. If I go to kiss her deeply on a Tuesday, I'm not actually looking for sex. I just want to make out with my wife. I used to think she just assumes I'm after sex - I'm not so sure any more. I think it's entirely possible that if we make out, SHE'LL want sex, and that's a no-no.
Interesting!

Just keep making it safe for her, from your end.

And very good to hear the progress and insight! Nice to hear hopefulness in SIM!

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #253 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:53 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

It sounds to me like the once a week thing is her compromise. Left to her own devices, she'd choose less, but keeps up with once a week to keep you happy.
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post #254 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 07:03 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Sounds like my wife. Sunday between 2pm and 5pm we will have "sex". (well she'll give me a HJ).
That's one hell of a long handjob. Must be purple until next Sunday
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post #255 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I wouldn't do it (withhold). You will suffer more. If she cares about you and your relationship, you have to tell her exactly what you have written here and how it affects you. I think the problem is often how to make the spouse understand what's a big deal and not feel embarrassed about it.
She can make up her own schedule in her head, make it irregular and pick days on her own in advance, if that's what she needs to get going, just not let you know what it is and when it's coming, then to you it will feel spontaneous and she will have time to build it up in her mind (I think my wife is similar). If she genuinely cares, she will make the effort.
Is she Christian? It seems the bible has a verse about having a duty to care about those things (we are both atheists so it doesn't work for us :-) From spending too much time on the faith boards to pass time, it seems to me a very handy to use bible as leverage :-)
Nope, no religion here. She's not a non-believer, either. Probably somewhere in between atheist and agnostic, who also doesn't really think about it all that much! I don't think she actually has an opinion on religion one way or the other.

I agree and also disagree with the "if she cares she'll make an effort". It's never that simple IRL. On paper, in words - yes, of course, just DO it! It's easy for us to say. It's like an alcoholic. They don't really want to hurt others, that's not the goal. But they do. The ones who are hurt by it can tell them to just quit. Seems sensible, including to the alcoholic, but it's just not that simple.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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