Thoughts on this - Page 38 - Talk About Marriage
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post #556 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 01:18 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
But don't you see that your statements are loaded with assumptions and are condescending to men because of your generalisations? I absolutely cannot relate to "not being fully there" on a daily basis for sex with my wife because I crave it on the daily basis and it's not about the orgasm relief, it's about connecting with her and her wanting me in the same way. I had it once on a daily basis for two years and I still craved it. You don't believe me, even though there is less of a reason for me to make this stuff up than for someone who is doing it in order to get into bed with you. Maybe you believe everyone wants to mate with you but nobody can? :-)

I totally believe you, there's no reason for me not to. I'm just sharing my experience, and have no reason to doubt yours. There are a few people on this board who have sex daily and are in long term marriages. It is not completely unheard of. But it is not common either (daily sex). My experience has been that daily sex with me is manageable for some men and not for others.

It's difficult for me to believe that somebody like you exists in real life maybe for the same reason you believe I am making this stuff up. I have to say I always found "in your face, too sexually forward" women off putting (not talking about you). Maybe partly those were the same reasons you find "swagger" off putting. It's a a way to get attention and when it comes to quality sex, it is all superficial and may not be all as "advertised". But I don't care about it. I care about what my wife feels.

Hmmm...first, again I don't believe you are making anything up. As for being an in your face, sexually forward woman, sure I get that turns some guys off just as some guys like that turn some women off. However I don't find swagger off putting, I enjoy it. I guess you must have misread that part of my post where I talked about enjoying reading or hearing a man's swagger, because I like to know what he's got going on for himself (if appropriate).

Actually the reason I mentioned your posts sometimes sound a little made-upp-ish, is that there are so many generalities about how sex is "supposed to feel like" and about how you view yourself from a certain, sexual angle but it's very thin on specifics (actual technique and specific experiences). A bit like horoscopes. That's not to say horoscopes cannot be entertaining but there is a high probability that the way WE view ourselves is not that close to the way we actually are or the way others view us. It is one thing to project a certain image on a forum and quite another go about living a life as a real person.

I can understand why from your vantage point I sound made upp-ish. However, not only here but in other online places I have given tons of actual technique and specific experiences, I am not avoiding doing that or trying to sound like I'm reading a horoscope. Look - I just ENJOY sharing my perspective, ok? I know that mine is not the same as others but just as I benefit from reading the perspective of others who are both similar to me and very different to me,
I offer my perspective for the same reason. I am not saying my perspective is how it should be for any particular other person. My life in real life as a real person is a pretty cool life, in part because my sex life is so awesome.



I agree, if it was all that. However doing this while also telling us that all men you have been with were all empty talk when it comes to their HD is basically making fun of the problem of people like me and Alexm (and others I am sure) share. It comes across as though you believe we come here to "show off" or something. I guess if I knew you in person, I could assign a tone to your writing and maybe wouldn't infer it necessarily but those generalisations sometimes trip me up. I guess I must learn to stop "defending" all these men you have been with and look at myself as a separate entity to not get offended :-)

Yes please don't feel offended. I certainly don't feel offended by you. I just accept that I come across as abrasive to some people and I can be off putting. Going forward maybe you can just read my posts and be like "yeah she's just kind of a brat like that in her wording".

I think I am one of the few here (or perhaps one of the view actually admitting it) who are inclined to think that the problem is ME rather than HER, failing to ignite her desire for me in the same way I desire her. But sure enough, this will somehow be seen as swagger :-)

Again, swagger is GOOD. In my world, anyway. Can I ask you a question...if you knew with certainty that you could not ignite her desire for you in equal measure to your own, but also knew that no other man would be able to either, would you be able to be at peace with that? Or do you really have to know for certain that no other man could make her have more desire? I'm just trying to understand what you are really needing.

Remember the goal of feminism: Making sure only alphas get laid!
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post #557 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 01:32 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

Kag,
First of all, I think your high integrity/ high transparency approach is admirable. And that is especially true for the sex part.

Us humans are a confounded lot. Nowhere more so than in the bedroom where ego protection often crashes headlong into true intimacy.

I read this article about women faking it - and how bad that is for their LTR/marriage. And I nodded.

Because when you fake an orgasm you are combining apex intimacy with intentional deception. And when it's patterned deception - you are creating a huge amount of emotional torque.

So your H has a phobia of not being desirable. And it is a phobia - because you clearly desire him. And his phobia is triggered by you not reaching the rapture.

He also has a more general phobia of not seeming masculine/manly - which is why he claims to be fearless. Or at least to have no phobias.

So the approach to someone like that is to avoid words that - make him appear weak.

In the beginning - working through this with M2 - I learned that it was an epic fail to say:

I know that when I do XYZ, it makes you angry (and over time as I learned more - I discovered that the real deal was that XYZ caused her to feel either frightened or hurt - and that the anger was just a reaction - a secondary emotion)

Trial and error led me to a different delivery style which worked a lot better:

Sometimes I get the sense that when I do XYZ, that feels bad to you.
Or
Sometimes I get the sense that you don't much like it when I do XYZ

--------------
And if I got a defensive reaction - I would bookend the conversation with this:
Everyone has likes and dislikes. Stuff that feels good and other stuff that feels bad.

And then I drop it.
--------------




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Originally Posted by kag123 View Post
MEM -

I find this post fascinating and inspiring. What you did here is exactly what I try to do in my own marriage - I have a great interest in my own self discovery and simultaneously the discovery of my husbands inner workings as well - with the goal of a more harmonious marriage.

You were ingenious to discover M2's "phobias" as it gives you invaluable inside information about what her triggers are, so you can deftly maneuver around them and avoid any major landmines that might spring up.

I think every person on earth has those landmines scattered around them - but that each individual may not have the introspective clarity to know what their phobias and associate landmines are. Or they may know them, but refuse to acknowledge them or admit that they are there. There is nothing that I want more in my marriage than to learn and subsequently avoid my husbands landmines. I am 12 years into this relationship with him and still learning new things about him every day. My H conceals his phobias behind guarded doors. And he throws so much shade up around them that it is difficult for me to decipher what the truth is - he deflects me as soon as I get close to it. I've spent a long time studying him, and to this day I couldn't tell you whether the deflection I perceive is intentional (he is actively hiding parts of himself from me for some reason- shame? embarassment?) or unintentional (he has not even admitted his phobias to himself, so he tells himself and me that they just don't exist). 12 years in and I still feel like there are pieces of him that I don't really know at all.

One thing that struck me about this post of yours is that it appears that while M2 may not have given you these answers on a golden platter, she also did not actively work against you finding them or using them to help navigate your sticking points with her. You can see this because when you ask her for permission to do things, she doesn't protest against you asking, she just quietly says yes and is grateful that you asked first. That helps with your harmony with her.

Let's say my H had the same phobia - FOMO. He too would never dream of telling me I couldn't do something without him, so in reality I don't HAVE to ask permission as I know he will let me go. But let's say I asked permission as a courtesy to him per your move with M2. His reaction would be indignant. "Why are you asking me for permission? You know you don't need to ask me. Did you think I'd say no? Do you really think I am THAT overbearing that I'd tell you no? Have I ever said no to you before?" It gets to the point where I just roll my eyes and walk away, and get annoyed that I even tried to do something for his benefit when I get raked over the coals for it. How do you navigate that when your spouse won't let you help them?

What is most annoying to me - I try to be a completely open book. I think FW and I are kindred spirits in that regard because I am unapologetically honest in my life to the point of being seen as abrasive or intimidating. I have phobias for sure. More than the average woman, I think. I own them and for some of them, I even seek treatment. My husband knows them. I tell him what they are. I give them to him on the golden platter. I couldn't hide my flaws if I tried...it's just not in my nature to deceive. I would be horrible at it. Most importantly- I think that being unapologetically honest and forthcoming is the morally "right" thing to do. And to knowingly deceive is a major sin. (This is why I triggered hard a few pages ago when discussing the idea that LD'S must actively deceive those they enter into a relationship with. The whole idea that anyone would even accuse me of doing that stomps all over everything I believe in.)

Sometimes I think my husband is overwhelmed by my phobias, or that he cannot understand what it is like to have things that trigger an uncontrolled or exaggerated emotional response that logically you know is over the top, but that you feel you cannot stop from happening. I've tried to ask him if he has any phobias - literally anything in his life that causes him fear or anxiety- and he will look me in the eye and say "Nothing. I am not afraid of anything." And I can tell you he firmly believes it to be true. It's not true - it can't be true. Every single person on earth has things that cause them anxiety and fear. He's not a robot.

I can't for the life of me figure out how to bridge this gap and get to where you are with M2!

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post #558 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 01:58 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

IMP,
There's a reason M2 and I have extended the English language to create a vocabulary - solely focused on addressing my various (asynchronous/independent) behaviors.

The easiest was inVIDelity - for watching shows/movies without her.

There are others including:

inPODelity - for listening to podcasts without her

inWAdelity - for going on walks without her

----------
When you trigger your partner - it isn't true they only have two options: fight or flight

There's a third option - you can roughhouse - and that's generally what we do.

And I am unwavering in my belief that describing other people's phobias as 'crazy' solely because they differ from your own - is both mean spirited and hypocritical.

When you validate someone else's feelings in a playful manner - they generally respond well to it.

Let me turn it around. The wasp is flying around in the house. While I am trying to kill it - and my heart is racing - you could make a factual statement like: Good thing you aren't allergic. My response to that is - do you not grasp that I KNOW it's a phobia.

But if you ask: You want me to call a bus (slang for ambulance)? That just makes me laugh.

Playful acknowledgement is powerful.





Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
Comprehension lies in the eye of the beholder. I am pretty sure she asked you the question for two main reasons:
1. She spontaneously decided that it sounded like fun and wanted to come.
2. She wanted to see how enthusiastic you will be about her coming with you.

Sorry if I got it wrong. I do think I understand where you are coming from with your theory (modelling a behaviour in the same way she'd want to receive from you). But sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar. After a certain age, it is pretty much impossible to change in many regards, especially when it comes to reactive behaviour.
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post #559 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:05 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I can understand why from your vantage point I sound made upp-ish. However, not only here but in other online places I have given tons of actual technique and specific experiences, I am not avoiding doing that or trying to sound like I'm reading a horoscope. Look - I just ENJOY sharing my perspective, ok? I know that mine is not the same as others but just as I benefit from reading the perspective of others who are both similar to me and very different to me,
I offer my perspective for the same reason. I am not saying my perspective is how it should be for any particular other person. My life in real life as a real person is a pretty cool life, in part because my sex life is so awesome.

Yes please don't feel offended. I certainly don't feel offended by you. I just accept that I come across as abrasive to some people and I can be off putting. Going forward maybe you can just read my posts and be like "yeah she's just kind of a brat like that in her wording".
Deal I just won't use the word "brat".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithful Wife View Post
Again, swagger is GOOD. In my world, anyway. Can I ask you a question...if you knew with certainty that you could not ignite her desire for you in equal measure to your own, but also knew that no other man would be able to either, would you be able to be at peace with that? Or do you really have to know for certain that no other man could make her have more desire? I'm just trying to understand what you are really needing
I know what you are getting at with the question and it's a good one. I am trying to work backwards by way of elimination. Eliminating the idea that she'd be happier with someone else would put everything on me and her and is the obvious place to start in my mind. We could start working from there. If it's not up to me and I am not able to make her fully happy, then we have to think seriously whether it is a good idea to stay together (because eventually this problem will probably raise its ugly head one way or another).

If her desire has an overall "ceiling" (as I guess is what you are driving at) and I knew this for a fact (dunno how it's possible to find out) then it's an entirely different matter. I would stop torturing myself (and her) and find it easier to accept the situation and also her, for who she is. It doesn't mean that I would discontinue trying different things to have a good time together but I would probably take it less personally if I don't get the "right" feedback, if that makes sense, and would be more content with the fact that I know that she will be happy with me and her life with me, no matter what.

I realise that in your mind, both scenarios produce the same outcome in terms of our sex life and life in general but the former has less predictable outcomes. She might suddenly decide she can't bear it anymore with me and find someone else. Or she might to bear it with me and be miserable and not tell me.

Does it make sense?
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post #560 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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You want her to take charge. You do not want that position.

Is that accurate?
I don't want either of us to be in charge.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #561 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:19 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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That's what makes the ride interesting, right? If we knew everything ahead of time, and could control it, life would be pretty boring.
I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.

Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.
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post #562 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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MEM2020, this is a wonderful close to your most enlightening post...

In the last two weeks EB2 has been presented with our son (my stepson) being convicted of a felony, her brother dying, being told her job will be made redundant in June, and on top of that she hurt her back the first 10 minutes of Spring yard cleanup... distress was foremost and past practice would have had us not speaking when she needed me the most.

Instead, I was your "wife-whisperer" that you spoke of... what a difference.

She asked last night what I thought of her retiring, seeking a permission that was not mine to have to give, and I gave her my thoughts but in the end told her that no matter what she decided, I had her back. I got the biggest hug and I love you this morning as we were trading places in the shower and body to body, we were at peace body and soul... my calm is her calm when she does need it the most, and I was there "effortlessly" without terms or conditions, what a great place to be.

Thank you for sharing...

Hey @alexm, this is good stuff to think about..
I'm not insulted by this, but what makes you think this isn't how I operate currently with my wife?

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #563 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:28 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.

Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.
That is kind of the beauty of this thread: it meanders. Big thanks to Alex and the two mods here who are allowing these interesting conversations.

Imp, would you say you have control issues? Or not at all?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #564 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:29 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I don't want either of us to be in charge.
What would be your ideal arrangement?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #565 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:30 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

IMP,

This my man - is the absolutely transparent expression of anxiety.

This type thing is why I love TAM.



Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.

Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.
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post #566 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:34 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by jld View Post
That is kind of the beauty of this thread: it meanders. Big thanks to Alex and the two mods here who are allowing these interesting conversations.

Imp, would you say you have control issues? Or not at all?
Anything is possible. I am not the best person to characterise myself
I think my wife sees me as ego-centric, not very well attuned to what's going on outside of my head, socially awkward and needing constant validation from others/outside (the latter partly my job's fault).
Don't remember her saying anything about control.
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post #567 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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What would be your ideal arrangement?
That neither of us are in charge of each others sex life...

This whole 'once a week thing' is fine. It's not ideal, but I'm okay with it. What I don't like is that it's the same day, pretty much same time.

What I don't like is that it's dictated to me when I can have sex (and really where, too).

I'm okay with planning. I'm okay with scheduling. This is how life is at my age, with kids and jobs and everything else.

I don't want to plan or schedule my sex life, thankyouverymuch. I just want it to ****ing happen, even if it's once a week.

"Every time I read your posts about your wife I want to swallow strychnine."
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post #568 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:38 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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IMP,

This my man - is the absolutely transparent expression of anxiety.

This type thing is why I love TAM.
Well. Is there a "cure"? Because I am not sure I am liking it!
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post #569 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 02:44 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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That neither of us are in charge of each others sex life...

This whole 'once a week thing' is fine. It's not ideal, but I'm okay with it. What I don't like is that it's the same day, pretty much same time.

What I don't like is that it's dictated to me when I can have sex (and really where, too).

I'm okay with planning. I'm okay with scheduling. This is how life is at my age, with kids and jobs and everything else.

I don't want to plan or schedule my sex life, thankyouverymuch. I just want it to ****ing happen, even if it's once a week.
That's why I was wondering whether it would not be easier to change YOUR perception of it, rather than try and change HER behaviour. To understand that perhaps that's not a bad or "insulting" thing for your wife to "schedule" it in her head. Maybe it will help if you try to understand "why" she goes about it the way she does (unless of course she hates your guts and that's the only way she can stand it, in which case Pandora's Box!
(That last comment is not about you, it's about me.)
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post #570 of 1499 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 04:24 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by inmyprime View Post
I am not sure. I crave for consistency and I wish I could hold onto just ONE good moment in my life. Life otherwise just slips away in front of us. You don't really experience it properly either because of constant worries or because...well the human brain is not able to live in the present. We either obsess about the past or we worry about the future. The present is totally elusive. Watching your little one smile: you can't really take it all in because you know the moment is already in the past and you worry what will happen next. It is quite sad. I want to be able to hold onto something tangible, consistent and permanent but nothing of the sort exists.

Sorry, I have no idea why I have just written this.
IMP - I once got swallowed whole by this type of thinking, to the point where I had a full out breakdown. It is what led me to ultimately seek help, and I am now medicated for it and much better off than I used to be. I'm not saying you need medication or even that you have any type of diagnosable disorder like I do. Just that you need to keep recognizing these thoughts and find a way to snap your brain out of it, because they can be poison if you let them run on too long. The human brain is able to live in the present if you train it to do so.



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