Thoughts on this - Page 92 - Talk About Marriage
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post #1366 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:17 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

The seems remarkably common. As far as I can tell my wife almost always has an O - we use toys / vibrators are part of our sex play. But she very rarely wants sex.

I think that for some an orgasm is sort of mechanical. Many straight men would have an O if given a BJ by another man. That doesn't mean that they enjoy it - its just a mechanical response. Many women may be similar - the right physical stimulation will cause them to O, but it doesn't mean that they particularly enjoy the experience.

The problem is that I don't really know. I simply cannot put myself in the mindset of not enjoying sex with the person I love, if that person is making an effort to please me. All I can do is try too imagine some other situation which is physically pleasurable but not enjoyable.

There was a female poster here who described that she didn't want an orgasm as part of sex.


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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.
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post #1367 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:40 AM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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In trying to help Alex figure this out, I think it's good to keep in mind he said it's not just sex his wife shuts down except for that one small window of time a week, it's all of the "extras" that usually accompany a full sexual relationship she shuts down too, such as flirting, anticipation, etc. They are like asexual beings except for an hour a week, per her control.
I am still suspicious of this "control" idea. It tends to set up a perpetrator/victim frame. And that can lead to resentment rather than understanding and empowerment.

But if it is indeed a control issue, it is helpful to remember that people are usually controlling because they do not feel safe. So a quick way to start resolving the issue would be to take an honest look at *why* they would not feel safe, through their eyes, and what the other partner could do to make them feel safe.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #1368 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:10 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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But if it is indeed a control issue, it is helpful to remember that people are usually controlling because they do not feel safe. So a quick way to start resolving the issue would be to take an honest look at *why* they would not feel safe, through their eyes, and what the other partner could do to make them feel safe.
A: It is control.
B: What probably makes her feel not safe is not being in control. Which is why I suggested a negotiated amount per month or whatever of not being in control. My wife once decided to give up control and respond whenever I initiated and whenever she wanted to as well. Within a couple months she realized that wasn't going to work with the comment "no matter how much it is not enough". Well no, actually it was enough but there is no amount you can offer that will result in me turning you down - there is a difference.
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post #1369 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:11 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.
See, for me orgasms and my sex life with my husband are things that can exist in separate realms. No matter what my sex life with my husband has been like, my dose of orgasm wasn't affected. If I want one, I can have one.

But liking sex is a different matter. I didn't like it for a period of time with my husband, but it had little to do with whether or not I liked orgasm (which I do, a lot.)

And now that sex with my husband is something that I want and need, it has little to do with whether or not I orgasm during sex with him (which I do sometimes, and sometimes not, but never because I can't.)

(I'm coming to realize that the relationship between female orgasm and sex is really different for different women. But it does seem to almost always be important for the man's enjoyment.)



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The seems remarkably common. As far as I can tell my wife almost always has an O - we use toys / vibrators are part of our sex play. But she very rarely wants sex.

I think that for some an orgasm is sort of mechanical. Many straight men would have an O if given a BJ by another man. That doesn't mean that they enjoy it - its just a mechanical response. Many women may be similar - the right physical stimulation will cause them to O, but it doesn't mean that they particularly enjoy the experience.

The problem is that I don't really know. I simply cannot put myself in the mindset of not enjoying sex with the person I love, if that person is making an effort to please me. All I can do is try too imagine some other situation which is physically pleasurable but not enjoyable.

There was a female poster here who described that she didn't want an orgasm as part of sex.
For me, not all orgasm are created equal. They are simply a physical release sometimes, other times they are part of our sex "play," other times they are a very intense part of our emotional bonding during sex. They have little to do (for me--not speaking for other women here) with my sex life with my husband. My pleasure in that has almost exclusively to do with . . . well, his pleasure. I get off on him getting off, to be blunt. I get actual sexual pleasure out of, say, giving him a blow job. It's different than the physical pleasure I get from an orgasm, and also more intensely sexually pleasurable.

I can't figure out if I'm just kinked way different than most women, or if because I can "afford" to see orgasm as separate from sexual pleasure because orgasms aren't ever something I see as something I have to "get" during sex.

I do know that if my husband expected me to orgasm or pressured me to or didn't let me just please him during sex, then I'd get less enjoyment out of sex. Might feel like I had to fake them because of my "need" for him to be sexually satisfied in order for me to "get off" on sex.

When you're dependent on your partner's sexual pleasure for your OWN sexual pleasure, it can complicate things.
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post #1370 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:15 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by anonmd View Post
A: It is control.
B: What probably makes her feel not safe is not being in control. Which is why I suggested a negotiated amount per month or whatever of not being in control. My wife once decided to give up control and respond whenever I initiated and whenever she wanted to as well. Within a couple months she realized that wasn't going to work with the comment "no matter how much it is not enough". Well no, actually it was enough but there is no amount you can offer that will result in me turning you down - there is a difference.
I think the only way to effectively help someone overcome control issues is to help them feel safe enough to willingly and wholeheartedly give up perceived control. And the only effective way I know of doing that is to earn their trust.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #1371 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:23 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by anonmd View Post
A: It is control.
B: What probably makes her feel not safe is not being in control. Which is why I suggested a negotiated amount per month or whatever of not being in control. My wife once decided to give up control and respond whenever I initiated and whenever she wanted to as well. Within a couple months she realized that wasn't going to work with the comment "no matter how much it is not enough". Well no, actually it was enough but there is no amount you can offer that will result in me turning you down - there is a difference.
That is interesting. She didn't find not being in control to be a relief?

See for me, it was about control and always wanting control. The more control I had, the less happy and less safe I felt. But at the time I was sure it was what kept me safe. But "safe" meant at arms length from intimacy, really.

I did give up control, and not having choices feels a lot safer to me. Just getting to the point where I was miserable enough to say to my husband, "Please help me, I'm so unhappy," was the hard part. And trusting him enough to take that control and not abuse it took some time. And he also had to learn how to navigate not letting me take control in way that was destructive to me/our marriage vs. knowing when I really needed what I said I needed. Lots of deep communication and trust and a willingness to forgive mis-steps along they way as we learned together.

It's hard to be THAT vulnerable with another person though. Do you think your wife just couldn't go all the way with giving up control, or that she really isn't unhappy having the control after all?
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post #1372 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:53 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.
While I would want to agree with you on this, my wife displays the same phenomenon in this regard just as @alexm wife likely does. Not only is my wife orgasmic, but she often enjoys being multiorgasmic and describes that each one gets stronger and stronger exponentially so. But on the average day she has virtually no motivation to enjoy that, and she will quickly tell you that sex is just not that important to her.

One thing I have picked up on here recently is that when sex is super awesome, it often leaves my wife feeling guilty and/or a little ashamed of herself. When I ask her why she says she feels as if it is wrong and that it should not feel that good. Almost as if she feels undeserving to experience that level of pleasure.

I also know my wife really likes to be in control when in comes to sex in our marriage with regards to when, where, and how often. Part of me thinks that if she really embraces enjoying sex and started wanting it more often, that she would effectively loose control and become subject to me rejecting her. While I am always eager to please, I am not always receptive to uncontrollably wanting to be pleased myself. For whatever reason my wife receives 100% of her sexual validation by making me completely loose control to the point I have to have it, and over our marriage she has learned the ideal frequency at which this occurs.

So I don't know if that offers some insight for you and Alex, but it may shed some light on the dynamics of why a wife can go crazy in bed and then care less about it for days afterwards.

Regards,
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post #1373 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Good point and one I think gets lost at times. I don't think it's always intentional just someone gets so frustrated that they only focus on the faults of their partner all the time. I know it helped me when someone on here said look in the mirror yourself. I really saw yes I had legit complaints but I was also failing in ways I didn't see.

What does crack me up though is studies show like 25% of women orgasm in sex but the wives of the men here are like 100% ha. I love reading she isn't into sex with me anymore even though I give her 5 orgasms at least every time haha.
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I've wondered how she orgasms but still doesn't like sex. That's the part that simply does not compute. How can anyone who orgasms regularly not like sex? It makes no sense! I've not doubted that she orgasms, I've doubted that she doesn't like sex. I think she just likes control and with holding sex is a form of control.
She likes sex - she does not like sexuality. Does that make sense? (honestly asking). She is simply not a sexual person, and in truth, she never really was. It was masked by us actually having sex regularly, and without a schedule. But in retrospect, even when things were "good", she never initiated in a sexual way. For her, it's very much get down to business.

One thing I've learned here is that each and every woman orgasms differently, orgasms from different things, does not orgasm from other things, etc etc etc. My wife clearly knows her body and what gets her there (which is not much, TBH - physically). The mental aspect is what's missing in her case, save for one small window per week.

Some women absolutely require total mental stimulation to orgasm. Others do not. It's that simple.

The ability for a woman to orgasm is not at all dependent on whether she's hyper-sexual or not.

As well, a woman (or man) can certainly enjoy something they do not have an overwhelming urge to do. Most of us, myself included, view something like sex as being totally awesome, so why not have it twice a day? Anon, I'm with you on that. It's not logical in our view. But not everybody thinks like we do.

The logic behind some responses implies that it's all for show, it's fake, it's not possible. Come on, now.

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post #1374 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Ask her
That's how I learned she dislikes it very much, so... no. I've left it in her hands, and it hasn't stopped, so I have no complaints. It'll never happen on it's own, and I'll live. It's a non-issue, and shouldn't have been brought up in this thread, nor have the whole 'fake orgasms' stuff. We're going off the rails, here.

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post #1375 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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First, it isn't that she doesn't like sex (Alex reports that she is always very into sex when they have it).

Just because she likes sex doesn't mean that she always wants to have sex or is willing to have sex at any time.

I'm an introvert and social gatherings are quite taxing for me.

On the other hand, it's common for me to be the life of the party and appear to be having a great time (and I usually am having a great time). However, I can only handle this in limited quantities. Too many parties and I'd be mentally exhausted.

So, how can I enjoy parties and not want to go to them all the time?

I think these "she has orgasms and therefore should want to have sex all the time" or "if she doesn't want to have sex all the time, she must not be having orgasms" memes can lead to misunderstanding the nature of the problem.
Couldn't agree more, and that's also a great analogy.

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post #1376 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:22 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by GettingIt_2 View Post
When you're dependent on your partner's sexual pleasure for your OWN sexual pleasure, it can complicate things.
This could be the subject of its own very interesting thread, GI.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #1377 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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I am still suspicious of this "control" idea. It tends to set up a perpetrator/victim frame. And that can lead to resentment rather than understanding and empowerment.

But if it is indeed a control issue, it is helpful to remember that people are usually controlling because they do not feel safe. So a quick way to start resolving the issue would be to take an honest look at *why* they would not feel safe, through their eyes, and what the other partner could do to make them feel safe.
Believe me, I've addressed this.

I've never for a second thought that *I* was any part of her not feeling safe. I've asked her directly about this. I've even gone so far as to ask her best friend - somebody who has known her longer than I have.

The reality is, best I can tell, is that she has had bad experiences with long term relationships. No abuse (definitely not physical). As I've mentioned here before, her last ex before me had major trust issues. His ex wife cheated on him, and he brought that mindset into the relationship with my now wife. Controlling and jealous. The other major relationship she had, he cheated on her, apparently repeatedly. So, IMO, the only two major relationships she had before me were completely sunk because of trust issues (and technically, trust issues around sex, to be exact).

I have little doubt that in both of those relationships, she probably DID give herself to them completely - as one should, therefore multiplying the 'hurt' factor 10-fold when they went south.

In any case, she has said she feels safer, more secure, and more loved and cherished with me than she ever has before.

And perhaps that's my downfall, ironically enough (and has been pointed out by some pretty smart people here).

Which is why I'm moving to destabilize the relationship just a teensy bit.

Security and safety are paramount to a relationship's success, of that there is no doubt. But too much of that, and the need to mate-guard, or otherwise ensure the 'excitement' continues is lost. It happens a LOT, we all see it every day here on TAM. Get that spark back, or destabilize the relationship. I've tried the former, many, many times. This is my first foray into the latter.

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post #1378 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:42 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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This could be the subject of its own very interesting thread, GI.
Really? It seems pretty basic to me that mutual pleasure completes with selfish pleasure in everything from emotional needs to sexual needs in a bonded couple. It's the whole idea of "dependency" all over again. In highly intimate relationships, there seems to be a natural conflict between the pleasure of having one needs met and the pleasure of meeting the needs of our partners. When the pendulum swings too far one way, there will eventually be a conflict that either leads to correction . . . . or not.

I think in a couple that in intentional about their intimacy, there still might be lots of conflict, but a much higher incidence of correction. It's about staying "in tune" with the intimacy and health of the relationship, and prioritizing it above either person's individual needs.

Last edited by GettingIt_2; 04-21-2017 at 01:46 PM.
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post #1379 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:42 PM
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Believe me, I've addressed this.

I've never for a second thought that *I* was any part of her not feeling safe. I've asked her directly about this. I've even gone so far as to ask her best friend - somebody who has known her longer than I have.

The reality is, best I can tell, is that she has had bad experiences with long term relationships. No abuse (definitely not physical). As I've mentioned here before, her last ex before me had major trust issues. His ex wife cheated on him, and he brought that mindset into the relationship with my now wife. Controlling and jealous. The other major relationship she had, he cheated on her, apparently repeatedly. So, IMO, the only two major relationships she had before me were completely sunk because of trust issues (and technically, trust issues around sex, to be exact).

I have little doubt that in both of those relationships, she probably DID give herself to them completely - as one should, therefore multiplying the 'hurt' factor 10-fold when they went south.

In any case, she has said she feels safer, more secure, and more loved and cherished with me than she ever has before.

And perhaps that's my downfall, ironically enough (and has been pointed out by some pretty smart people here).

Which is why I'm moving to destabilize the relationship just a teensy bit.

Security and safety are paramount to a relationship's success, of that there is no doubt. But too much of that, and the need to mate-guard, or otherwise ensure the 'excitement' continues is lost. It happens a LOT, we all see it every day here on TAM. Get that spark back, or destabilize the relationship. I've tried the former, many, many times. This is my first foray into the latter.
Anything with the word "destabilizing" in it sounds risky to me. What if she does not respond the way she did the last two times? What if she just stops trying?

As to her insecurity from her past . . . what would concern me if I were you, Alex, is why, if you are a much better guy than those two previous ones (and I am sure you are), she is not able to overcome any possible fear? Was there just more "raw" attraction with the first two, and with you it is more a "mature" attraction? Could that explain the lack of spontaneity?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #1380 of 1926 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Thoughts on this

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Originally Posted by badsanta View Post
While I would want to agree with you on this, my wife displays the same phenomenon in this regard just as @alexm wife likely does. Not only is my wife orgasmic, but she often enjoys being multiorgasmic and describes that each one gets stronger and stronger exponentially so. But on the average day she has virtually no motivation to enjoy that, and she will quickly tell you that sex is just not that important to her.

One thing I have picked up on here recently is that when sex is super awesome, it often leaves my wife feeling guilty and/or a little ashamed of herself. When I ask her why she says she feels as if it is wrong and that it should not feel that good. Almost as if she feels undeserving to experience that level of pleasure.

I also know my wife really likes to be in control when in comes to sex in our marriage with regards to when, where, and how often. Part of me thinks that if she really embraces enjoying sex and started wanting it more often, that she would effectively loose control and become subject to me rejecting her. While I am always eager to please, I am not always receptive to uncontrollably wanting to be pleased myself. For whatever reason my wife receives 100% of her sexual validation by making me completely loose control to the point I have to have it, and over our marriage she has learned the ideal frequency at which this occurs.

So I don't know if that offers some insight for you and Alex, but it may shed some light on the dynamics of why a wife can go crazy in bed and then care less about it for days afterwards.

Regards,
Badsanta
Fascinating, honestly.

She has hinted at something like this in the past. I'm a giver in the bedroom, there's no doubt about it. I don't make it ALL about her, but I think I used to tread that fine line a little too much.

I enjoy giving, sexually, because I get off on it. I'm not doing it for her, so much as I'm doing it for me. This is a hard concept for many people to grasp. It's not AT ALL about ego for me, either. "I can get any woman off multiple times because I'm sooo good in bed and such a giver!" Totally not that. I genuinely get off on getting a woman off. Whatever.

Anyway, at some point she told me straight up that she doesn't want it to be all about her - that she wants ME to enjoy myself. My response was that I AM, very much so. Her response to my response was that she didn't feel like it. I asked her for suggestions. She said she wanted me to occasionally show her that it's only about me - that I just wanted to get off, and to not worry about her.

I spent a while doing just that, intermittently. She had no complaints. Neither did I, TBH, but it's not "me". I can't explain why. Having quick, sweaty banging sessions like that is perfectly fine when the kids are downstairs and we only have a few minutes. Doing this when we have all the time in the world? Didn't sit well with me.

I fully admit that I've let this aspect of our sex life go. I can't say that I spend all my time on pleasing her and make it all about her, but from her POV, I am.

Could this be as simple as her simply wanting me to bang her every now and again?

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