In need of advice - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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In need of advice

Let me begin by saying that this is my first post but have* been lurking around and reading lots of posts over the past several years. I know this will be a long post but I feel that I need to include all the history and the details to get a good opinion and any advice that might be given. I'm basically trying to figure out if I am being unreasonable or if it's my wife, or both.*

Ill begin by telling the details of my wife and I. We are both early 40s, three kids, 9, 4 and 2, been married 10 years together 12. I was married once before but divorced with no kids. I came from a single parent home, my mother and grandmother raised me, My wife came from a solid two parent home with one sister. No abuse or any other childhood problems for either one of us that I know of. With that I will start with my early adult life.

At 19 I met and married my first wife after about 2 years of dating. I was a virgin when we met and she was my first, I was not her first, she was very experienced. As you can imagine after we were married at the age of 21 we both had a high sex drive. It was the late 90s and the cool thing then was for girls to be bi-sexual. So we experimented with that for a while and then that lead to us into the swinging lifestyle.

All total that lasted about 3 years and after I put her through school we both decided it was time to settle down and think about having a family. With that being said I stopped and she continued to see other men and even began living with one while I worked, so we divorced. The reason I included that information is that is has been a source of ammunition for my current wife to use against me. After my divorce I stayed single for about a year and then jumped back into dating, but nothing to serious.

After about 9 months of dating several other women I met my current wife at a job that I worked at part time. At this job, EMS, we would spent up to 24 hours together because we worked 24 and 48 hour shifts. So during that time we spent a lot of time together. It was not a secret that I was kind of seeing two women at the same time but nothing was exclusive and both women knew about the other. My wife and I were both about 26 at this time. Both the other women were younger, I think 19 and 23 maybe. During this time at work my wife would quiz me on what I liked, anything from what I liked to eat to the things I liked to do.

She even questioned me about sexual stuff. At that time I was more than happy to talk to someone about that kind of stuff.* As a side note before I started dating again I had read an article for single people dating that stated when getting into a new relationship it's also a good idea to disclose hope, dreams, wishes, habits, good and bad to the person your seeing after a few dates. For instance it appears to be getting serious or could become serious it stated it might be a good idea to reveal if you have a high sex drive or low sex drive. So I kind of stuck with this and it seemed to help. Don’t get me wrong I never told anyone on a first date that I wanted lots of sex, but one person I dated brought up what I wanted in a relationship and told her then that I had a high sex drive and she stated sex was ok but not that important to her, but she could probably change for me.

I saw that as a red flag and we both just decided to move on. Anyway the reason I'm rambling on about this is that is the same conversation I had with my current wife and she stated she also had a high sex drive and we would fit together good.* Anyway my wife was the type of person who liked a challenge and stated that would like to go out with me and she stated she could give me anything and more than the younger girls could. So I took her up on that offer.**

Fast forward two years later and we are getting married. No real problems before marriage, sex life is good. No secrets no hidden fetishes, sex is about the same as with any other women I had been with. What I call normal is missionary, from behind, oral sex both giving and receiving, women on top and occasionally anal. My wife did all this and then some before we were married and never had a problem with it, or she never stated she did. Matter of fact she would get on top and start with anal without me even asking while we were dating. So after we get married, matter of fact on the honeymoon and two or three days in we are having sex and I stated I wanted to do something besides missionary, from behind or anal or something different she pops off that we are married and we needed to have"normal sex from now on". So at that point I just thought who the heck did I marry?*

As life goes on we end up pregnant sex life goes down but not too much to complain about. A year or two after the first baby she became pregnant again but miscarries. After years of trying sex is off and on we end up with two more children. Sex during this time has become more of a necessity trying to get pregnant than anything else. We end up fighting about that several times.**

After ten years of marriage and 3 kids sex life has been diminished to about twice a month if I'm lucky and all the stars fall in the right place. The problem has become that she will get in these religious cycles, where she wants to be a straight laced Christian but only follows the ideas and rules that suit her at the time.**After some time she will get mad at the church or someone there and revolt from it. But until then I'm stuck with no real options. The more time passes the more verbally abusive she becomes. I know the best answer would be to divorce and just move on but I cant stand the thought of being without the kids for any given time. *

The one time we went to a marriage counselor the moment the counselor focused on her as the problem she bolted and called the counselor nuts. And that is about what she thinks about anyone that does not agree with her is that they are nuts or just plain wrong.**

I guess I'm really don’t know what I'm looking for here but its more of a way to get this off my chest.

Last edited by Lostxxx69; 04-18-2017 at 12:12 PM.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 10:14 PM
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Re: In need of advice

Please add paragraphs. It is just to hard to read all this without them.
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 05:00 AM
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Re: In need of advice

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Originally Posted by Lostxxx69 View Post
Let me begin by saying that this is my first post but have* been lurking around and reading lots of posts over the past several years. I know this will be a long post but I feel that I need to include all the history and the details to get a good opinion and any advice that might be given. I'm basically trying to figure out if I am being unreasonable or if it's my wife, or both.*

Ill begin by telling the details of my wife and I. We are both early 40s, three kids, 9, 4 and 2, been married 10 years together 12. I was married once before but divorced with no kids. I came from a single parent home, my mother and grandmother raised me, My wife came from a solid two parent home with one sister. No abuse or any other childhood problems for either one of us that I know of. With that I will start with my early adult life.

At 19 I met and married my first wife after about 2 years of dating. I was a virgin when we met and she was my first, I was not her first, she was very experienced. As you can imagine after we were married at the age of 21 we both had a high sex drive. It was the late 90s and the cool thing then was for girls to be bi-sexual. So we experimented with that for a while and then that lead to us into the swinging lifestyle.

All total that lasted about 3 years and after I put her through school we both decided it was time to settle down and think about having a family. With that being said I stopped and she continued to see other men and even began living with one while I worked, so we divorced. The reason I included that information is that is has been a source of ammunition for my current wife to use against me. After my divorce I stayed single for about a year and then jumped back into dating, but nothing to serious.

After about 9 months of dating several other women I met my current wife at a job that I worked at part time. At this job, EMS, we would spent up to 24 hours together because we worked 24 and 48 hour shifts. So during that time we spent a lot of time together. It was not a secret that I was kind of seeing two women at the same time but nothing was exclusive and both women knew about the other. My wife and I were both about 26 at this time. Both the other women were younger, I think 19 and 23 maybe. During this time at work my wife would quiz me on what I liked, anything from what I liked to eat to the things I liked to do.

She even questioned me about sexual stuff. At that time I was more than happy to talk to someone about that kind of stuff.* As a side note before I started dating again I had read an article for single people dating that stated when getting into a new relationship it's also a good idea to disclose hope, dreams, wishes, habits, good and bad to the person your seeing after a few dates. For instance it appears to be getting serious or could become serious it stated it might be a good idea to reveal if you have a high sex drive or low sex drive. So I kind of stuck with this and it seemed to help. Don’t get me wrong I never told anyone on a first date that I wanted lots of sex, but one person I dated brought up what I wanted in a relationship and told her then that I had a high sex drive and she stated sex was ok but not that important to her, but she could probably change for me.

I saw that as a red flag and we both just decided to move on. Anyway the reason I'm rambling on about this is that is the same conversation I had with my current wife and she stated she also had a high sex drive and we would fit together good.* Anyway my wife was the type of person who liked a challenge and stated that would like to go out with me and she stated she could give me anything and more than the younger girls could. So I took her up on that offer.**

Fast forward two years later and we are getting married. No real problems before marriage, sex life is good. No secrets no hidden fetishes, sex is about the same as with any other women I had been with. What I call normal is missionary, from behind, oral sex both giving and receiving, women on top and occasionally anal. My wife did all this and then some before we were married and never had a problem with it, or she never stated she did. Matter of fact she would get on top and start with anal without me even asking while we were dating. So after we get married, matter of fact on the honeymoon and two or three days in we are having sex and I stated I wanted to do something besides missionary, from behind or anal or something different she pops off that we are married and we needed to have"normal sex from now on". So at that point I just thought who the heck did I marry?*

As life goes on we end up pregnant sex life goes down but not too much to complain about. A year or two after the first baby she became pregnant again but miscarries. After years of trying sex is off and on we end up with two more children. Sex during this time has become more of a necessity trying to get pregnant than anything else. We end up fighting about that several times.**

After ten years of marriage and 3 kids sex life has been diminished to about twice a month if I'm lucky and all the stars fall in the right place. The problem has become that she will get in these religious cycles, where she wants to be a straight laced Christian but only follows the ideas and rules that suit her at the time.**After some time she will get mad at the church or someone there and revolt from it. But until then I'm stuck with no real options. The more time passes the more verbally abusive she becomes. I know the best answer would be to divorce and just move on but I cant stand the thought of being without the kids for any given time. *

The one time we went to a marriage counselor the moment the counselor focused on her as the problem she bolted and called the counselor nuts. And that is about what she thinks about anyone that does not agree with her is that they are nuts or just plain wrong.**

I guess I'm really don’t know what I'm looking for here but its more of a way to get this off my chest.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 11:15 AM
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Re: In need of advice

If her sexual behavior changed immediately after marriage, that sounds a lot like a bait and switch - assuming your behavior didn't change.

If you didn't have kids, I would say that you have a valid reason for divorce, she presented an untrue image of herself in order to get married. With kids its more difficult.

The above assumes that we have the whole story. Have you changed your behavior since you were married?

Have you asked her straight out - "you used to enjoy a wide range of sexual activities - what changed?". Tell her that you expected to spend the rest of your lives enjoy passionate sex, didn't she?
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 11:40 AM
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Cool Re: In need of advice

Visited with a pastoral friend who lectures about Christian married couples and sex!

He is astounded at the number of Christian women or men who will want to diminish their feelings for spousal sex once the "I do's" are said and in place!

Accordingly, married Christian couples ought to be the most sex ridden entity that there is in creation, because the act of loving sex was bestowed to us by God, for not only procreation, but also for a married man or woman to unselfishly show their spouse just how very special that they are in their life!

He stated that far too many will use the Bible, the Church, their children, their job, their jaded self-imagery or even their childhood upbringing as justifiable crutches to hindering what is supposed to be the most loving and revered thing that marital partners can ever hope to bestow upon one another!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

My Story! http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-t...andonment.html

Last edited by arbitrator; 04-17-2017 at 11:00 PM. Reason: Edification
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 12:21 PM
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Re: In need of advice

Yes paragraphs are your friend.

I read six main issues in your post. I am going to assume those are the main issues.

(1) You have a number of small children at home.

(2) You feel that sex twice a month is not adequate for your needs.

(3) You feel that your wife's religious views are interfering with a healthy sex life

(4) You wife has some kind of view that the role of a wife is different than the role as a lover

(5) You have had some counseling that has turned you wife off to future counseling.

(6) you were raised mostly by a single mother and a grandmother.

First, having a number of small children at home to take care of can really drain a woman's libido. So in a long term marriage, one should not be surprised that this would be the sexual low point. You get to decide your own boundaries, but by working at it (both you and your wife) it could get better.

It should like in your current situation you are HD and she is LD. Not too surprising with the small children. As David Schnarch says every aspect of marriage involves negotiation of a compromise that works for both the HD and LD partner. There is Low Desire (LD) for chocolate ice cream and HD for chocolate ice cream. Just because on partner needs chocolate ice cream more than the other doesn't mean the marriage is doomed to failure. There can be disagreements of HD/LD TV watching, video gaming, etc. And yes, there can be HD/LD issues regarding both sexual frequency and variety.

I was in a sex starved marriage and mean really sex and intimacy starved. I had my wife read a few highlighted passage from Schnarch about that there is no "right amount of sex or wrong amount of sex" that it is all a compromise that a married couple has to work out. I told my wife that I needed to change some of my behaviors and want her support and that to save our marriage I wanted us to go to sex therapy. An ST is a marriage counselor with extra training in sexual problems and issues.

I strongly suggest that you drop all ideas that your wife is broken, wrong or unfair. Get over any anger you have toward her. Figure out what it is that you might have done in the past that contributed to your marital problem. If you think hard enough you will find that you are probably part of the problem. It took me a long time to figure out what I had done and not done that contributed to my being in a sex starved marriage.

Does your wife have a religious person (priest, nun, clergy) that she respects? Is there a woman in her church that she knows who might be able to talk to her and give her guidance? Again, not that she is wrong, just who you wife can use as a sounding board. There are also sex therapists and marriage counselors who provide counseling through a Christian perspective. Taking to some people associated with her church or religious background may help you get a recommendation on a sex therapist or marriage counselor that might be more attractive to your wife.

I think that you and your wife need a really good sex therapist or marriage counselor (probably ST) that your wife will respect. You should try to find three or four and let her pick the one she prefers to see with you. Again, for the purpose of helping you reach a compromise with your wife and for you to make changes in yourself for the betterment of your marriage.

Now, lets get to you a little more directly. I strongly suggest that you read Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. It is about men, who have been raised by women, educated and controlled in school by women and have been taught from an early age that they need validation from women. They tend to grow up to become co-dependent on their wife, always looking to their wives for emotional validation. They do all kinds of things that basically poisons their marriage by making them unattractive to their wives.

I was a Nice Guy. It took a lot of hard work on my part to loose my Nice Guy card. I had no idea how much of the problem I was within my sex starved marriage until after I read that book and figured out what it was trying to tell me. The opposite of a Nice Guy is not a Jerk, but an integrated complete man. A man who is a good father, a good husband and a strong, moral, ethical person. A man who takes responsibility for his own happiness and the happiness of his family.

Good luck. I think that if you are willing to look very closely at yourself and you actions and work very closely with your wife and getting both of you into a really good marriage counselor or sex therapist you can learn more about yourself and your wife and reach a compromise in your relationship that you can both live with and in which a marriage can thrive.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 01:05 PM
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Re: In need of advice

My wife bailed on counseling when they pointed out that SHE had problems (as did I) so I know what you mean.

Go back to counseling. If she goes, great. If she doesn't then go alone and let her know you are going so she knows the marriage is in trouble.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: In need of advice

First off thanks for the Grammar lesson, I was in a hurry and didn't even think about paragraphs. To answer a few of the questions and comments, the bait and switch I feel is 100% spot on. And anything changed about me, well I'm sure there has been changes but I still treat her and love her the same as when were dating. I routinely buy flowers, leave little love notes almost daily, although I will admit the past two months I have not due to the fact that for 75% of our time together she does not speak much to me.
We have talked about the sexual needs and wants that I have, and again when we started dating I told her that was a big thing for me and that if she didn't feel the same way that it might be best to move on. So in other words after about 4 or 5 dates and it looked like things were getting serious I was up front about my views of several thing including sex. Her response several times now is that she feels we are older and we need to have "normal Sex" now.
I read six main issues in your post. I am going to assume those are the main issues.

(1) You have a number of small children at home. Yes

(2) You feel that sex twice a month is not adequate for your needs. I think it's more about quality than quantity, good sex twice a month is better than her just bending over and telling me to hurry up four times a month.

(3) You feel that your wife's religious views are interfering with a healthy sex life. Somewhat kinda true but I'm not sure how to describe.

(4) You wife has some kind of view that the role of a wife is different than the role as a lover. That one is not really how I would state it. She is more of a leader than follower but only if I do or lead the way she thinks it should be.

(5) You have had some counseling that has turned you wife off to future counseling. True.

(6) you were raised mostly by a single mother and a grandmother. Yes
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 01:32 PM
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Re: In need of advice

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Originally Posted by Lostxxx69 View Post
I think it's more about quality than quantity, good sex twice a month is better than her just bending over and telling me to hurry up four times a month.
I read this comment and think that perhaps as a couple that you may not be able to enjoy one-sided experiences with each other.

It took me a while to realize that when my wife was not in the mood, but she was still willing to satisfy me, that rejecting that offer was making us BOTH feel rejected. Some women take great pleasure in simply making their husbands happy, but at the same time some women get extremely resentful if they feel "forced" to enjoy themselves every time sex occurs in the marriage.

The same dynamics take place when a man may struggle with intermittent erection problems. The woman may feel emotionally traumatized that her husband may struggle to sometimes enjoy sex in the marriage, and the man may have his erectile problems compounded with performance anxiety created by his wife's reaction to these issues, thus making sex traumatic unless he feels that his libido is cranked up enough to be a sure thing.

So a question... when you say "quality" are you referring to both of you enjoying nice orgasms each time? Do you think you would be open to enjoying sex for the purpose of not having an orgasm and focusing solely on emotional closeness with your partner? Such lovemaking may or may not include penetration and may be limited to hugging while nude, talking and gentle touching for the purpose of basic pleasure, but not performance driven for an orgasm.

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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 02:28 PM
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Re: In need of advice

How long has you wife been wrapped up in religion? Was it before you were married? If so, consider that all along, she might have found "normal sex" acceptable, but "wild sex" immoral. The wild sex might have been the bait to get a ring on her finger, and the religion is likely the root cause to your marital woes. Just my opinion.

On the face of it, the situation seems extremely unfair. Your post mentions seeking clarity, as to whether you're being unreasonable. Here's my opinion: I think it's completely reasonable to expect sex as described from one's wife, especially if such sex was enjoyed before the marriage.

Had you posted 10 years ago, I would have advised marriage counseling, sex therapy, and ultimately divorce, if those avenues did not lead to resolution. But since you have children, I would not advocate divorce unless your wife poses an actual danger to the family or you are immensely miserable. Doesn't seem to be the case here...

The best thing for you would've been communication with your wife about the problem a decade ago, immediately when "she changed" and before kids. But based on your post, communication still seems like a good option to me.

From the sounds of it, your wife loves you and cares about what you feel (heck, she promised you the world, just to win you over). Assuming that she does in fact give a damn about you, use her feelings to your advantage by reasoning along the lines of feeling hurt, rejected, and so on about the sex life. Heck, be sincere and put her on a major guilt trip; ask how she would feel, if you rejected her! These simple tactics might get results.

If no results after good ol' communication, go to marriage counseling and/or sex therapy. If those don't work, or your wife won't go, get your mind off of sex with wholesome things -- family, friends, hobbies.

Whatever becomes of this, at least you've got the memories of great sex with your wife. Some guys on TAM would kill for those! I am among them. Good luck!
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 04:09 PM
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Re: In need of advice

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.....Her response several times now is that she feels we are older and we need to have "normal Sex" now.

(1) You have a number of small children at home. Yes

(2) You feel that sex twice a month is not adequate for your needs. I think it's more about quality than quantity, good sex twice a month is better than her just bending over and telling me to hurry up four times a month.

(3) You feel that your wife's religious views are interfering with a healthy sex life. Somewhat kinda true but I'm not sure how to describe.

(4) You wife has some kind of view that the role of a wife is different than the role as a lover. That one is not really how I would state it. She is more of a leader than follower but only if I do or lead the way she thinks it should be.

(5) You have had some counseling that has turned you wife off to future counseling. True.

(6) you were raised mostly by a single mother and a grandmother. Yes

Ok let's try this again.

Small kids kill libido in most women. It also inhibits most women from doing acrobatic and loud "quality sexual things" with their husbands. So this might be a temporary thing while you have a small child. Any way that your child can have a sleep over party with a neighbor's child? Offering a neighbor a chance to drop their child off for an evening off is a great way to get something going in the neighborhood, where you and your wife might be able to have a night with no child. When they are older, a week at summer camp was wonderful or an overnight at the grandparents.

If you really want quality, talk to your wife about role playing and if she has any fantasies she might like to explore. Again, don't expect her to get dressed up as a Harem dancer if you child could come running through the door at any minute.

You wife's' religion might not be the issue, but her upbringing might be. A lot of girls are raised to be "good girls" and "Good girls would never do certain perverted things. My wife was raised Catholic. The nuns told her that anything (yes ANYTHING) that a husband and wife did after marriage was OK. My wife told me this many times as we were dating. She promised to do some kinky stuff after marriage. Her thought was that marriage would change her and she would grow in her ability to become more sexual.

Didn't happen, even the promised stuff. During therapy she confessed that she had thought she would be able to change herself, that she wanted to change herself, but she just could not. She also said that the nuns didn't know how perverted the things that husbands could ask of their wives when they said anything was OK. I attribute this to cultural upbringing rather than actual religious scripture. Even the Sex Therapist in working to help save our marriage could not convince my wife to try oral sex as it was just too revolting.

I really don't understand how she can be more of the leader if you are the leader in the right direction. That one is beyond me.

As I said earlier some women have their own self image of what is acceptable behavior of a wife, mother, grandmother. Sort of a reverse Madonna/Wh#re complex. That is probably something only your wife can change and all you can do is support positive change. Again, not sure what leading in the right direction might mean.

You really should try to figure out how to get the two of you into counseling. For me it was convincing my wife that I needed her help and support to change myself and my sincere believe that she was not broken or that I wanted the counselor to fix her so I didn't need to change.

Finally, you really need to get Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy and read it, study it and figure out the life lessons he is trying to give you.

Good Luck

Last edited by Young at Heart; 04-18-2017 at 04:13 PM.
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