DawnD

PHT Lump--- I would seriously just skim through the OP's additional threads. I have skimmed over them, and it is apparent to me that his wife has little to no respect for him.

Flirting is not going to change that, as you will see in one of his threads. Making himself more attractive will do more for his ego, but his wife needs some serious IC. I don't think his problems can be solved without her getting that counseling.

2sick

So well put That_Girl!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!! I would also like to add that talking or telling a long story is definitely not on the same line as flirting!

And that's right don't trust that biotch!!!!

Sawney Beane

Back in post 126, you said:
"the next time you're at a party, let your wife see you throwing out some lighthearted, witty banter with attractive women. This will trigger her preselection instinct and she will naturally be more attracted to you." My emphasis. This certainly appears to contend that it does indeed trump everything...

If the wife's position is that the potential to stray is the problem, whether the man is showing interest in a woman or the woman is showing the interest, unless he's beating her away with a stick, the reaction is the same.

A jealous rage over appearing to be preparing for sexually interacting with another partner whilst in an exclusive, monogamous relationship? Who'd think it? It's like someone not becoming suspicious of a person appearing to be casing their house or car...

The problem is that preselection theory totally ignores any influence from higher reasoning or psychology. Provided that you're working with someone who is entirely driven by instinct, you're fine. Probably works 100% of the time in a wolf pack. In human society, less so. Much less so.

__________________
Can you rokker Romani chib, pal?
Aye, aye, brother!
What's Weshenjuggalslomomengreskeytemskeytudlogueri?
I don't know what you say, brother.
Then you don't jin Romani chib...

FrankKissel

Will do, whenever I get a chance to sit at a computer.
In the meantime, as a MMSL advocate, a question for you:

If a married man came here and said his wife was demanding he perform a specific act he didn't want to perform - say, every Sunday afternoon having lunch with his in-laws instead of watching his favorite NFL team - and he relented, would you congratulate him for being a giving husband?
Or would you call him a Beta who just failed a major sh!t test?

Be honest.
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DTO

Total Bullsh!t.

Dad is sexually frustrated, arguments with mom ensue because of the way she's treating him. Kids will be negatively impacted.

Or, Dad is sexually frustrated, decides for his own good to pull back from wife and focus on himself and kids. Mom is offended because, to her, a blowjob is so trivial that their presence or absence should have zero impact on the way he treats her. She gets pissed off and the kids are impacted.

Also, kids definitely care whether their parents treat each other well. My late son, at age 9, had stated his dissatisfaction with him mother "because she's always yelling at you". Kids as young as two express a preference for a parent or caregiver that is more attentive to their needs. As they age that sentiment matures into application of right and wrong, and fairness.

Not liking oral sex is a legitimate opinion (although IMO a weird one), refusing it to your spouse is a personal choice (although a dubious one).

But, faking willingness to provide as manipulation to get one's way is a character flaw. If she will lie, conceal, or manipulate in this way then she will do it in other ways too. It's a lack of respect to essentially lie to you because what she wants is more important than treating you fairly.

This tendency of hers to manipulate has the potential to permeate several aspects of your marriage (money, child-rearing) unless you put a firm stop to it. I know it's tough to upset the apple cart with small kids in the picture, but you've been warned.

Lastly, don't let yourself be played by the "you only want sex, you don't love me" card. Flip that around to "if you loved me you would not decide this on your own dislikes when you are perfectly capable of giving them cheerfully" or, even better "if you loved me then you would have been honest from the start about your dislike and not wait until you've gotten what you want from me".

DTO

Why would he leave his family?

What I mean is that these things usually take a "would you lose your family over this" tone to them. That sounds like a scare tactic.

A more fair way to label this is "would you be willing to lose your wife over this?" The kids are and always be his regardless if the marriage ends, and if he's an active parent there's no reason to think he cannot get 50% custody (if it came to that).

I just see no reason to see this as a binary "you suck it up for your kids OR you've failed your family".

that_girl

He would be leaving his family, no?

Not that I truly care. It's his choice and he'll have to live with it.

Has the OP even been back here? Geesh. All this talk for nothing.

And 50% custody sucks for kids. Believe me, I know.

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DTO

Not really. What makes it a "bait and switch" is that she knew giving BJs (with the implicit promise that they would continue) increased her attractiveness to the OP. She knew (by his asking for them) that they were important, and she chose to let him believe that they would continue.

I think it's important to note the timing of her objection to blowjobs - at that magical "second child" mark that seems to mark the completion of child-bearing for so many people. Why not tell him before the wedding, for instance? Also, the fact that she is defensive and not remorseful for leading him on speaks volumes.

that_girl

Maybe he sounds like a big, whiny baby when talking about it. Which is a HUGE turn off. He's desperate. Most desperate people aren't "cool".

We don't know their dynamics.

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DTO

I see your point, but that's kind of a red herring.

The difference is that ED is an involuntary body process. He cannot control whether his body can generate and sustain an erection. She is completely capable of giving a BJ; all that is required is an attitude adjustment from "yuck!" to "my husband, who is there for me and sacrifices for me, has earned it so I will get comfortable with it".

Now, if he had ED but refused to get medical help, or that he could not get it up for her from too much masturbation or porn, then I would argue she would have grounds to leave.

Just to be clear, conscious choice does not equal medical issue.

PHTlump

I don't see how. I never stated that attraction is a binary switch that is either off or on, and that the preselection effect can flip a wife from being completely turned off to completely turned on. I'm simply stating that preselection can nudge your wife's attraction up the scale a bit. If a wife's attraction to her husband is currently at a very low level, then I doubt preselection, by itself, will bring much noticeable change.

Perhaps. I readily admit that there is no seduction technique that will work on 100% of women in every circumstance. You are correct to point out that exceptions exist to every rule.

I said a jealous rage over an interaction with a woman. I agree that most women would get jealous over asking for sex. I disagree that most women would get jealous, to the point of causing a scene, over a conversation. 2sick and that girl have already backed me up. When I asked about a hypothetical scenario of their husband pulling the interest of an attractive woman through conversation, they each state that they would be turned on, not angry with their husbands.

Not at all. As I said before, sexual attraction is not a yes/no question. You can be attracted to someone a little or a lot. That's why the 1-10 sex rank scale is useful. Most people will fall in between the 1 and the 10. If preselection will add a point to your sex rank, that doesn't assume that your wife is incapable of rational thought. It just means she's got a little animal in her somewhere.

DTO

This is gold.

What I would ask the OP's wife is "how did the nature of your interactions transform from pleasing him to reducing your own discomfort?"

The harder question is "do you see the slippery slope to which you've brought the marriage? Do you grasp that he has just as much right to stop doing those things for you that he dislikes? How would you feel if he did just that?"

Recommending that the OP de-emphasize the BJs to maintain his marriage and family is reasonable. Expecting him to treat her to the same high standard as when she was meeting his needs is not. If these really are as important as he maintains, the lack is likely to manifest in the way he treats her. My guess is that she isn't prepared to see her benefits cut similarly.

that_girl

We only know the OPs side of the story. Does he sacrifice for her? is he there for her? We don't know the answers from that in her perspective.

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hbgirl

If BJs are more important to you then I would absolutely leave the marriage.

DTO

I think he should ask her precisely this. If I were still similarly situated, it would make a big difference if my ex was of the mindset that she's willing to cut me a similar amount of slack, or if her thought process was "no, you'd better continue doing everything pretty much the same".

Because, the prior issue reflects a willingness to be fair, and the latter issue is just selfishness.