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Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

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Old 01-15-2012, 09:03 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

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Originally Posted by Catherine602 View Post
I see, same as men?
You forgot one very important thing, opportunity. Women are no longer confined to the domestic front. Employment increases contact with men.
I didn't explicitly say this, but yeah. The more women attain equal status as men in all aspects, the more it is accepted if they behave similarly.

Quote:
What about primal evolutionary impulses beyond our control? If it is true for men then it is true for women.
I am not sure whether we disagree or agree on this issue.
And what exactly are "primal evolutionary impulses"? I assume you mean desire for sex/sexual intimacy, right?
Quite frankly, I believe that human behavior is primarily nurture and very little nature. Therefore, while people may have those impulses (they they can't control), acting on them is whole different story.
A person who cheats may follow his "primal impulse" but nobody can seriously tell me that if I offered that person $1000 bucks not to cheat, they would easily forego that activity - which is proof that at the end of the day they choose to cheat.

@MEM11363:
I partly agree with what you're saying but I also think you're taking the easy way out. Neither one 'deserves' any of this. Yes, in an ideal world they should both put equal effort in to resolve the problem. I don't defend her but in another thread by Brendan I have described in detail how I felt with my depression and how I perceived my relationship and that the suggestions you're making here - as logical as they are - are not as clear cut if you have MDD.

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If it isn't him - who owns "fixing the problem"? I think she does. And that means lifestyle - exercise - therapy - etc.
Yeah, tell a depressed person, they should 'just' do it. That's the first fallacy.

Quote:
None of this is that difficult. You either believe you are entitled to demand that your partner be involuntarily celibate, or you don't. I don't and fortunately my W doesn't. We both believe the vow to "love" includes making an effort for sex to be a positive part of the marriage. For the HD partner that means not grinding your LD spouse wi incessant demands. For the LD partner that means making the same effort not to starve/reject the most important person in your life.
I agree with all of this. But again, the depression is a major factor, the lack of sex just a symptom. You can't fix the symptom until you fix the actual problem.

Quote:
All that said Brendan's issue isn't really sex it's that his wife doesn't really respect him.
See, this makes me believe that you don't really know what depression is, otherwise you wouldn't make that argument. Being depressed doesn't mean you don't respect somebody and it doesn't mean you don't love somebody.
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Old 01-15-2012, 10:34 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Lastradas,
Depression is awful. Speaking first hand here.

That said it doesn't make it ok to treat my W badly for years on end.

And I grasp the inherent: I am depressed therefore I cannot find the energy to begin fixing myself.
The thing is he can't own her depression. If she needs help with it she needs to ask.

On top of all that - she comes across as very indifferent to him. And that indifference is likely much more than a symptom of depression.

All that aside, do you feel he is obligated to stay with her if she isn't willing to actively work on her issues and the marriage?

A long time ago I saw a special on welfare reform in Wisconsin. They interviewed a woman who had been on welfare for 20 years. When they stopped her benefits she said "I had been depressed for 20 years which was why I couldn't work. But suddenly I felt better and got a job.





UOTE=lastradas;551738]I didn't explicitly say this, but yeah. The more women attain equal status as men in all aspects, the more it is accepted if they behave similarly.


I am not sure whether we disagree or agree on this issue.
And what exactly are "primal evolutionary impulses"? I assume you mean desire for sex/sexual intimacy, right?
Quite frankly, I believe that human behavior is primarily nurture and very little nature. Therefore, while people may have those impulses (they they can't control), acting on them is whole different story.
A person who cheats may follow his "primal impulse" but nobody can seriously tell me that if I offered that person $1000 bucks not to cheat, they would easily forego that activity - which is proof that at the end of the day they choose to cheat.

@MEM11363:
I partly agree with what you're saying but I also think you're taking the easy way out. Neither one 'deserves' any of this. Yes, in an ideal world they should both put equal effort in to resolve the problem. I don't defend her but in another thread by Brendan I have described in detail how I felt with my depression and how I perceived my relationship and that the suggestions you're making here - as logical as they are - are not as clear cut if you have MDD.


Yeah, tell a depressed person, they should 'just' do it. That's the first fallacy.


I agree with all of this. But again, the depression is a major factor, the lack of sex just a symptom. You can't fix the symptom until you fix the actual problem.


See, this makes me believe that you don't really know what depression is, otherwise you wouldn't make that argument. Being depressed doesn't mean you don't respect somebody and it doesn't mean you don't love somebody.[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:30 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

I just want to throw this out there. In search of cleaning up my own depression and anxiety problems I have determined that the lack of sex is a big problem for me.

My wife in the many excuses she gives me says she is depressed. And yes I can see that. But she is able to fake being happy around other people.

I understand faking being happy around other people, I do this myself. But I do not understand not being able to meet your partners need while being able to fake happiness to other people.

It is different to me if a person is so far down that they just don't get out of bed ect.
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:41 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

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I just want to throw this out there. In search of cleaning up my own depression and anxiety problems I have determined that the lack of sex is a big problem for me.

My wife in the many excuses she gives me says she is depressed. And yes I can see that. But she is able to fake being happy around other people.

I understand faking being happy around other people, I do this myself. But I do not understand not being able to meet your partners need while being able to fake happiness to other people.

It is different to me if a person is so far down that they just don't get out of bed ect.
Yeah, but you're also drawing conclusions from yourself to other people. Based on what I read here from Brendan, I can very well understand what his wife may be going through.
You know, I may be completely wrong. She may be a heartless b*** who couldn't care less about him. I can only offer my insight and own experience. And from that I can tell you that despite being depressed led me to act very similarly as Brendan's wife, even though I still loved him and wanted to meet his needs but I just couldn't.
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:53 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

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Lastradas,
Depression is awful. Speaking first hand here.

That said it doesn't make it ok to treat my W badly for years on end.
Well, playing devil's advocate, I think it's debatable whether she is treating him badly. Just because they disagree on something doesn't mean it's bad. If he had no desire for sex, nobody would argue that she's treating him badly.

Quote:
And I grasp the inherent: I am depressed therefore I cannot find the energy to begin fixing myself.
The thing is he can't own her depression. If she needs help with it she needs to ask.
Very much agreed. She's the one who needs to get the depression fixed. Problem in my opinion is that he doesn't really give a crap about the depression but only about the frequency of sex. And clearly, this is a chicken and egg situation, but if all my partner was concerned about, was frequency of sexual intercourse, it's very hard to feel cared about and my healing progress is significantly slower than if I had a supporting partner who doesn't just seem to care about sex.

I truly do understand his position but fact is, the way he acts, it ain't getting better because 1) his method hasn't worked at all
, yet he keeps doing the same thing 2) she'll start resenting him eventually if she already isn't. Again, I am basing that on my own experience, other people may have a different experience.


Quote:
On top of all that - she comes across as very indifferent to him. And that indifference is likely much more than a symptom of depression.
\
We don't know that. For all I know, she is completely stonewalling because of his constant focus on one thing.

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All that aside, do you feel he is obligated to stay with her if she isn't willing to actively work on her issues and the marriage?
Absolutely NOT. As a matter of fact, I think he should have left her already. Just like everybody else, he has the right to happiness and sexual satisfaction. But he keeps saying that he wants to be with her and his kids. So, if that's what he wants, why does he keep trying things that are clearly not working out in his favor?
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:00 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

Lastradas,
Lets pretend:
1. Brandons wife had a normal level of desire, and
2. HE had no desire for sex, and
3. He basically told her to "suck it up and accept it" and
4. She came on here for advice

I frankly would be telling her the same stuff I am saying to Brandon.

I come back to: "If you can't find it in your heart to spend at least one hour a week showing me that kind of love - you don't really care for me". Just as true for men as it is for women.

Do you really think it is not "treating someone badly" when you deprive them of something they are "only allowed to do WITH YOU"?

As for his area of focus - we will never know whether he primarily cares about her well being or his needs. Or what he started out caring about 3 years ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lastradas View Post
Well, playing devil's advocate, I think it's debatable whether she is treating him badly. Just because they disagree on something doesn't mean it's bad. If he had no desire for sex, nobody would argue that she's treating him badly.


Very much agreed. She's the one who needs to get the depression fixed. Problem in my opinion is that he doesn't really give a crap about the depression but only about the frequency of sex. And clearly, this is a chicken and egg situation, but if all my partner was concerned about, was frequency of sexual intercourse, it's very hard to feel cared about and my healing progress is significantly slower than if I had a supporting partner who doesn't just seem to care about sex.

I truly do understand his position but fact is, the way he acts, it ain't getting better because 1) his method hasn't worked at all
, yet he keeps doing the same thing 2) she'll start resenting him eventually if she already isn't. Again, I am basing that on my own experience, other people may have a different experience.


\
We don't know that. For all I know, she is completely stonewalling because of his constant focus on one thing.


Absolutely NOT. As a matter of fact, I think he should have left her already. Just like everybody else, he has the right to happiness and sexual satisfaction. But he keeps saying that he wants to be with her and his kids. So, if that's what he wants, why does he keep trying things that are clearly not working out in his favor?
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:20 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

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Originally Posted by MEM11363 View Post
I come back to: "If you can't find it in your heart to spend at least one hour a week showing me that kind of love - you don't really care for me". Just as true for men as it is for women.
Speaking for myself, I know that this isn't true.

Quote:
Do you really think it is not "treating someone badly" when you deprive them of something they are "only allowed to do WITH YOU"?
Well, here I am referring back to an good old example: If she was physically not capable of engaging in sexual intercourse, you wouldn't say this. Yet, she would still be depriving him of sex. From what I read, when you were depressed you didn't experience a lack of interest in sex, hence it seems incomprehensible to you why someone would do it if they were depressed and I can talk until I am blue in the face but I was depressed and as much as I wanted to have sex with my partner, I simply couldn't and I engaged in the same behavior Brendan's wife is: stonewalling. And my partner pushing the sex thing, seemingly not caring what else was going (because if I made myself have sex with him, the world was okay for him and it didn't seem to cross his mind that I may be feeling differently), really didn't make me want to engage with him in any other way, despite loving and caring for him. My partner, just like Brendan, cared for me ( I know this - well maybe not towards the end but that's a different story), but the association he made between sexual intimacy and our relationship being in the green was so off putting that I felt he couldn't care less if I spread my legs on a regular basis.

I am not taking sides, I am simply trying to demonstrate two things:
-that her behavior may not purely be the result of spitefulness.
-that he maybe hasn't really tried much, but his attempts were more or less pseudo attempts to get her to have sex with him (and I am saying this because I've read his posts and every time he does ~ one nice thing he seems to expect the world to turn around and her to become sex - crazy (of course I am exaggerating here)
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:36 PM   #68 (permalink)
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LOL

But my W can't have sex. Well can't have intercourse. It hurts. So we don't do "that". As for your situation - if having sex meant your partner ignored your depression - that is very sad.

And ummm if my depression made me impotent - I would please my wife in other ways. And I would do it for HER. You didn't want to give to your ex because when you did - he responded in a way you disliked. You are talking about "love" the feeling. I am talking about love "the choice".

You can say "I loved him - I really did - I simply refused to give him what he needed from me because ....long list of reasons why he was a selfish partner....".

And my view of that is it is fairy tale love. The kind where how I "feel" matters more than "what I do".

I cannot count the nights I have responded to a kind offer to connect with "tonight I will love you by rubbing your back while you drift off to sleep". It is a choice to stretch yourself when tired, sad or anxious. And a choice not to take something from someone who is willing but clearly tired, sad or anxious.

As the sun sets each day it is far more likely for us to exchange some version of "you come first tonight, no no, YOU come first tonight" than it is to hear:
"it's MY turn to get my way tonight, no no, it's MY turn"


TE=lastradas;552401]Speaking for myself, I know that this isn't true.


Well, here I am referring back to an good old example: If she was physically not capable of engaging in sexual intercourse, you wouldn't say this. Yet, she would still be depriving him of sex. From what I read, when you were depressed you didn't experience a lack of interest in sex, hence it seems incomprehensible to you why someone would do it if they were depressed and I can talk until I am blue in the face but I was depressed and as much as I wanted to have sex with my partner, I simply couldn't and I engaged in the same behavior Brendan's wife is: stonewalling. And my partner pushing the sex thing, seemingly not caring what else was going (because if I made myself have sex with him, the world was okay for him and it didn't seem to cross his mind that I may be feeling differently), really didn't make me want to engage with him in any other way, despite loving and caring for him. My partner, just like Brendan, cared for me ( I know this - well maybe not towards the end but that's a different story), but the association he made between sexual intimacy and our relationship being in the green was so off putting that I felt he couldn't care less if I spread my legs on a regular basis.

I am not taking sides, I am simply trying to demonstrate two things:
-that her behavior may not purely be the result of spitefulness.
-that he maybe hasn't really tried much, but his attempts were more or less pseudo attempts to get her to have sex with him (and I am saying this because I've read his posts and every time he does ~ one nice thing he seems to expect the world to turn around and her to become sex - crazy (of course I am exaggerating here)[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:45 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

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How do you explain the dramatic increase in women cheating and reaching parity with men?
I would venture that it's because it's only in the last (roughly) 60 years women have felt able to get away with it in the way that men have.

Before that, men controlled essentially all the money and property in the relationship, divorce laws were heavily stacked in their favour and society was less negative toward them if they cheated. Women had more to lose.

But that's just my twopenn'orth.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:07 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

What is indeed interesting is that the co-authors have been married for 20 years . . . and remained faithful!

Barash makes the crucial distinction between instinct/impulse and willpower/choice. Very pithy, I should think.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:17 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Was reading all posts inlciding lastradas until i read this CRAP that you wrote:

"
Very much agreed. She's the one who needs to get the depression fixed. Problem in my opinion is that he doesn't really give a crap about the depression but only about the frequency of sex. And clearly, this is a chicken and egg situation, but if all my partner was concerned about, was frequency of sexual intercourse, it's very hard to feel cared about and my healing progress is significantly slower than if I had a supporting partner who doesn't just seem to care about sex."

wont go into any more specifics as im looking after daughter right now, but i do 70% of cleaning, 100% of outside cleaning, 50% of cooking and try nonsexual touch still even though she shrugs it off a lot.

And these long letters that im writing????

Counsellor advised me to write a letter or email to her as she doent enjoy confrontation. One letter which i did on saturday and it wasnt that long lol.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:23 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

a quick bit of humor that i heard from a guy in my town who has same issue. gotta laugh abotut his sometimes.

similar to what

like MEM11363 said " Do you really think it is not "treating someone badly" when you deprive them of something they are "only allowed to do WITH YOU"?




our wives are stopping us doing what only we can do with them brendan.

Its like going to the pub and not being allowed to have a beer, going to the basketball but leaving qwith 5 mins to go when its 88-88, its like going to the races and not having a bet.

Its sorta true, going to the races is fun and you love it but not the same without having a bet.

for what its worth he also really does love his wife as i do and has had no sex for 2 years and is 30.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:27 PM   #73 (permalink)
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another good call from MEM11363.

"And ummm if my depression made me impotent - I would please my wife in other ways. And I would do it for HER. "



thats what i think sometimes, im not angry at her for the no sex as she isnt horny due to depression mostly. But can she try other ways at ALL? Even a handjob anything, this makes me sad in some ways. Like MEM said if i couldnt get horny i still believe id at least do something a quarter sexuall for my wife.

gotta go shop cya
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:44 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

10-11-2011, 0244 AM,
Title: Wifey gives ok to go to a brothel/hooker
Poster: Brendan

"as discussed on other topics my wife and i (28). do not have sex anymore as she doesnt want it or doesnt want to or doesnt feel like it or has no sex drive. 3 years maybe 5 or 6 times.

she has now come to me and said she is okay with me seeing a hooker or go to brothel.

That just does not turn me on or is not what im after, my reply was i dont think i will as it does not turn me on to pay for sex even that ii know plenty of men who do.

should i be really angry that she has suggested this or happy she thinks she is trying to help me out - intially i think its rude and lazy.

Im meeting her counsullor next week for the first time, she has been about 6 times. things sure to come up."


brendan, I confess- I don't think you're making any progress.

You have struggled for years with this problem. You have been sharing your travails on TAM for months now. You have posted multiple threads, hoping to get some advice that will work, while avoiding the unpleasant truths about your situation.

Your wife doesn't love you. She may not even love herself. She doesn't-love you so much that she would rather you go have sex with another woman than her.

You are apparently to the point that you're considering it. Doing that will not get you sex with your wife, which is WHAT YOU WANT.

What you're doing IS NOT WORKING.

So try this. Stop doing 70% of the indoor cleaning. Start cooking for only you and your daughter. Stop touching your wife and trying to make her feel special. Go look for Morituri, and click on the Link in one of his posts, and read up on the ****ing 180 and start doing it.

God gave us brains to think with. Based on your own writings, your marriage has not gotten better. That should tell you that what you are doing is not working. So do the 180, stop rewarding your wife for not-meeting your needs, and see if that changes things up.

The worst thing that will happen is she will stop having sex with you. Oh, wait.....
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:09 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Default Re: thinking of getting a sex partner whilst married

OP -- Your previous threads are all over the place. Your first one says that you cyber cheated with a "friend" and your wife found out. Then you go on to the whole " she told me to go to a brothel" and now you are back at "she won't sleep with me". Well, if I found out about my H having cyber-sex, I probably wouldn't want to sleep with him either. Point blank.

It would do you some good to look at all the advice and realize you are getting nowhere by simply disagreeing and deciding it isn't for you. maybe you need to go back to the beginning and ask her to deal with the cyber cheating with you to get her back to wanting sex with you.
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