Intimacy and Resentment - Page 5 - Talk About Marriage
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post #61 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 04:10 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Originally Posted by astral.wheats View Post
-She's told me that she doesn't feel like she should be responsible for my sexual needs, and tells me to masturbate more. I've tried to make clear how sex for me isn't just a physical thing. Masturbating is a detached physical act, but good sex makes me feel loved, valued, connected, etc...
Generally speaking women that when a man is needy that it is rather unappetizing. It would serve you better to be very confident about yourself and transform your neediness into compliments.

What you need to do is rephrase things a little. Instead of "honey sugar I really really need you tonight please please please" you should say "honey sugar you need to stop being so freaking beautiful right this minute or I will not be able to keep myself off of you tonight!"
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post #62 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 04:11 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

I am NOT speaking as a mod.

Asteral has been dishonest with A2 about his needs for 5+ years of a 6 year relationship. He has already engaged in classic nice guy double talk on this thread. In one post he says he is a generally low priority of hers and in another post he says otherwise.

And instead of actually dealing with the issue - like he should have 5.5 years ago or 2 years ago by not marrying - he just wants one way sex on a routine basis.

She may be selfish - maybe - or perhaps she is turned off by a partner too timid to say what's what in ten words or less.



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During the "trail period" birth control would be a must. I don't think that he'll ever be desired by her, but that may be the best he's going to get...from her anyway. Unless she cuts the BS, he'll never have a real marriage unless he has it with someone else. I'm hoping filing will be a way of cutting through her BS, if not it's all over anyway.
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post #63 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 04:42 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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It's actually an excellent book. Have you read it?
I actually have. Great for a small percentage of applicable cases, not so great for most of the others.

Like it happens here in TAM, the book does little to convince the hapless male to look deep and find root causes. It simply reiterates "it's you" a few hundred times, tells you to "take control" and, good luck with that.

My experience has been that people are far more complicated than a simple pop psychology book can describe. Generalities are good, but they generally don't work.
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post #64 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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I am NOT speaking as a mod.

Asteral has been dishonest with A2 about his needs for 5+ years of a 6 year relationship. He has already engaged in classic nice guy double talk on this thread. In one post he says he is a generally low priority of hers and in another post he says otherwise.

And instead of actually dealing with the issue - like he should have 5.5 years ago or 2 years ago by not marrying - he just wants one way sex on a routine basis.

She may be selfish - maybe - or perhaps she is turned off by a partner too timid to say what's what in ten words or less.
Explain where I did "classic nice guy double talk." (I get the sense that whatever this is bothers you deeply) You're making a lot of strong claims, and I'm not sure this maps on faithfully to what I've expressed here. I'd debate whether I've been dishonest with my partner. In my original post, I shared that we have had some conversations about this already. Could we both be more open and explicit in our conversations? Of course, that's a good next step. Also, it's feasible that my partner could treat my emotional needs with a higher priority than my sexual needs. That's what I was trying to express.

How did you get that I want "one way sex on a routine basis?"

"Actually dealing with the issue" is what I've been trying to do. I love and have loved my partner enough that I'm willing to accept some level of incompatibility, and work towards good compromises elsewhere. That's a difficult process, and the reason I posted.
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post #65 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 05:25 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

astral-wheats;

I strongly suggest that you read some of David Schnarch's books. The classic is the Passionate Marriage, but his newer books are much easier to read. He has sections in his book abut how to attain intimacy. What he has found is that most people can't handle real intimacy as to get there you have to be completely vulnerable. Most people are too afraid to be truly mentally, emotionally intimate.

Scharch believes that marriage is the hardest thing that two people can do, if done correctly. Specifically, two people come together and become a single family unit. The grow and mature at different rates. As such they are constantly pushing and pulling at each other emotionally throughout the life of the marriage.

Schnarch points out that every aspect of marriage is about compromise and that there is no right or wrong answer. There is only what compromise will work for the couple at this point in time and may need to be renegotiated later. That means that the amount of sex you want versus what your wife wants is neither right, wrong, or normal. You describe your definition of intimacy and you define hers. Schnarch would say neither of those are really intimacy and he has exercises for the brave of heart on how to gain intimacy.

To bare you soul sufficiently to be really emotionally intimate will require you and your wife to self -soothe. This is a technique to quite you mind and keep from panicking that he teaches in his books. True intimacy is gained when you and your spouse mature or self-differentiate, push your boundaries through self-soothing to do specific acts that are way beyond your and your spouse comfort zone. It is an OMG I will do anything for her and she will do just about anything for me moment. It is about emotionally connection and being on the same page or state of development. It is not about orgasms or cuddling.

Good luck. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Last edited by Young at Heart; 05-18-2017 at 05:46 PM.
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post #66 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 05:40 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

I respect your opinion and agree that many books don't reach those that read them. In many cases it is not the fault of the book.

I also believe that there is not single silver bullet that solves all problems. So yes, a single book may or may not help the first time it is read.

However, I do think that there are several books that if studied can provide insights into a person's problems. A big fan of Shakespearean and Greek Tragedies and Comedies. However, they require even greater introspection and study.

I do feel that some books have helped me, and from what I have experienced on this and the MW Davis website forum that Glover's book NMMNG has value as part of a larger reading list and self improvement list for more than a small number of men in troubled marriages, especially if they involve a wife who wants sex much less than the husband.

An even better approach is with the guidance of a marriage counselor, however, some people don't want to start there for a variety of reasons. For them reading some books is probably better than nothing.

There is no one-size fits all solution.
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post #67 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 06:40 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

If my wife told me to masturbate more, I would tell her there was no reason to be married.

But I told my wife soon after we met that she had to have sex with me every day or I would think she did not love me. There's only one way to my heart, and it's through sex. She agreed, and has stuck to it, even through all the hell I have put her through. So I have nothing to compare to.

I can't understand why you are being so nice about it. Snarl some, and get assertive. Well, that's my way, anyway. But my wife calls me the big bad wolf, and responds very well to my assertiveness.

Oh, and Mary says besides, if she told me to masturbate more, I would just grab her and masturbate her, because of course I interpret it that way...
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post #68 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 07:05 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

Astral,
I get it - I do. You feel like what I wrote was unfair. I've tried to explain it better below. And I believe the way you responded is selective. You ignored the comment about validating her treatment of you by marrying her. Instead of saying: gosh I guess I created this, you respond with - gee I guess I'm going to have to create the passion in the marriage.

You knew what she was like when you got engaged and then married her. Your current resentment implies otherwise. That seems dishonest to me. And you seem uninterested in considering how that might seem to her. Did you overtly lie to her? I imagine not. But the way you describe the sequence of events, you deceived her regarding what was ok/not ok behavior in a core area by not resolving it pre marriage.

And when you say you've already discussed this with her several times, I believe you. But that's AFTER exchanging vows.

If M2 had married me, then turned around and said: MEM, you need to be much more ambitious in your career, or I won't be happy with you. I would have said: Why didn't you say that before we exchanged vows?


My commentary on extracted quotes. Your quotes are below.
1. This is nice guy double talk. No one does zero for a partner in a marriage. This type statement allows you to interpret what you meant very broadly after the fact. Not good.
2. This is a clear, concise statement of the issue - well said.
3. Connect this statement with (4). Because in (4) what you describe is one sided. Why I said the request is for more one sided stuff.
4. See comment above
5. This - compared to (1) above creates confusion.

Astral quotes:
------------------------
1. It's not that she never does things for me, though.

2. I should be clear of that. We typically have penetrative sex every week or two.

3. Honestly, that would be fine if she were willing to do other things more regularly. Maybe that's something I need to emphasize with her.

4. In reality, we have intercourse weekly or bi-weekly, depending on what's going on. She will "take care of me" in other ways maybe once a month.

5. I do worry how she reacts, probably overly so, but that's my own baggage. She is actually quite conscientious about my reactions and responses in other areas, but there's a block when it comes to sex.



Quote:
Originally Posted by astral.wheats View Post
Explain where I did "classic nice guy double talk." (I get the sense that whatever this is bothers you deeply) You're making a lot of strong claims, and I'm not sure this maps on faithfully to what I've expressed here. I'd debate whether I've been dishonest with my partner. In my original post, I shared that we have had some conversations about this already. Could we both be more open and explicit in our conversations? Of course, that's a good next step. Also, it's feasible that my partner could treat my emotional needs with a higher priority than my sexual needs. That's what I was trying to express.

How did you get that I want "one way sex on a routine basis?"

"Actually dealing with the issue" is what I've been trying to do. I love and have loved my partner enough that I'm willing to accept some level of incompatibility, and work towards good compromises elsewhere. That's a difficult process, and the reason I posted.
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post #69 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 07:10 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

OP, your thread struck a chord with me because you are the me I was, more or less, minus 15 years. I have a thread here with my story that you can read if you have 30 posts, or are a forum supporter, and are so inclined.

I did some things that worked. And some things that didn't. But figured out a way to trigger the frequency and desire I do badly wanted. I was happy. And then I would get complacent and things would change for the worse until I got back on the wagon. So, at least for me, there was a blueprint I could follow (once I learned how to read it) that worked.

And knowing what I now know, in all honesty, I would never do it again. To me, it's not worth it in the end. It's not worth the effort to decipher the contradictory vagaries of a wife's sexual desire, anymore than it's worth the effort to pour a foundation upon the sand. And spare me the "but husbands can be LD too" chorus. Of course they can. I speak only from my own experience.

Young, no kids, and sex ranking on the rise? Clear the LZ, pop smoke, and wait for the chopper to sky out to a better place.

Because trust me, if lasting change is your goal, you can get it. But only if you're willing to never in your life to allow yourself a sanctuary of downtime where you are off the clock.

My wife has given me the greatest things in my life. My children. I wouldn't trade that for the world. She's also gifted me the worst things in my life - years of unrequited desire, passion, affirmation, and more. If I didn't have the former, I would never tolerate the latter. And if the former didn't exist but the latter did, the last thing I would do is even consider sticking around. And then if she also told you to jerk off more???? Are you f'ing kidding me?

A person says that to you, and you want to fulfill her need for non-sexual intimacy? Give her a foot massage and listen to her trials and tribulations, and then when she's soundly asleep, and fully content, you what? Grab her bottle of Jergens and go to town on yourself? Maybe do it lefty so it feels new and different? Gimme a f'ing break.

Read my thread and choose wisely. I wouldn't make same choices again. And if I were at the stage of life you are .... well, I'd learn to be happily alone. Seriously.
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post #70 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 07:18 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Originally Posted by john117 View Post
I actually have. Great for a small percentage of applicable cases, not so great for most of the others.

Like it happens here in TAM, the book does little to convince the hapless male to look deep and find root causes. It simply reiterates "it's you" a few hundred times, tells you to "take control" and, good luck with that.

My experience has been that people are far more complicated than a simple pop psychology book can describe. Generalities are good, but they generally don't work.
That wasn't my experience at all. A lot of that book applied to me, and I took it seriously and made some serious changes. One of the themes of the book is that it may make your marriage better or send it to a long overdue grave. My marriage ended and divorced finalized over a year ago, and I haven't felt better. That book wasn't everything to me, but it was a real eye opener and a very valuable tool for me.

So if you're saying that guys that come to TAM are just looking for easy answers and too lazy to do to the work, well ok. There are plenty of those. But why discount a useful tool just because it's pop psychology to you? Fine if it wasn't for you, but why dump on something potentially useful just because you don't think it is?
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post #71 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Originally Posted by MEM2020 View Post
Astral,
I get it - I do. You feel like what I wrote was unfair. I've tried to explain it better below. And I believe the way you responded is selective. You ignored the comment about validating her treatment of you by marrying her. Instead of saying: gosh I guess I created this, you respond with - gee I guess I'm going to have to create the passion in the marriage.

You knew what she was like when you got engaged and then married her. Your current resentment implies otherwise. That seems dishonest to me. And you seem uninterested in considering how that might seem to her. Did you overtly lie to her? I imagine not. But the way you describe the sequence of events, you deceived her regarding what was ok/not ok behavior in a core area by not resolving it pre marriage.

And when you say you've already discussed this with her several times, I believe you. But that's AFTER exchanging vows.

If M2 had married me, then turned around and said: MEM, you need to be much more ambitious in your career, or I won't be happy with you. I would have said: Why didn't you say that before we exchanged vows?


My commentary on extracted quotes. Your quotes are below.
1. This is nice guy double talk. No one does zero for a partner in a marriage. This type statement allows you to interpret what you meant very broadly after the fact. Not good.
2. This is a clear, concise statement of the issue - well said.
3. Connect this statement with (4). Because in (4) what you describe is one sided. Why I said the request is for more one sided stuff.
4. See comment above
5. This - compared to (1) above creates confusion.

Astral quotes:
------------------------
1. It's not that she never does things for me, though.

2. I should be clear of that. We typically have penetrative sex every week or two.

3. Honestly, that would be fine if she were willing to do other things more regularly. Maybe that's something I need to emphasize with her.

4. In reality, we have intercourse weekly or bi-weekly, depending on what's going on. She will "take care of me" in other ways maybe once a month.

5. I do worry how she reacts, probably overly so, but that's my own baggage. She is actually quite conscientious about my reactions and responses in other areas, but there's a block when it comes to sex.
It's less that its unfair, and more that I was confused by what you meant by "double-talk" and also thought some of your assertions were a bit shaky.

I thought I was clear at one point that we have had discussions re:sexual frustrations and desires throughout our relationship (before marriage and after). Maybe I left that out. Some of those discussions were more fruitful than others. It's not a forte for me. After reading a little bit of NMMNG, I definitely have some of the traits--especially a drive to avoid conflict and upsetting others. This definitely hamstrings some of our conversations, so I'm to blame in that aspect. If I could have been more fully open and honest upfront, maybe things would have progressed differently. I take your point, and it's something I have to live/struggle with. I think I'm just now becoming comfortable with the fact that my desires are important and that I deserve to have a good sex life. How messed up is that?

I understand what you mean by one-sided now, although when she does stuff like that, it's not from me asking and it's something she expresses pleasure in. One sided, yet also a mutuality, by my reckoning. Again, I take your broader point. If I wasn't clear enough about wanting more of this in the past, I've sort of dug my own grave. That's a pretty pessimistic way to look at it, but there's an element of truth and accountability there. However, before we took vows, wife agreed that she would try to work on her side of things, and work towards a more regular, satisfying sex life. I trusted her, and still do. We just haven't made it click yet.

Thanks for your response. Helping me to see a bit of a blind spot.
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post #72 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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OP, your thread struck a chord with me because you are the me I was, more or less, minus 15 years. I have a thread here with my story that you can read if you have 30 posts, or are a forum supporter, and are so inclined.

I did some things that worked. And some things that didn't. But figured out a way to trigger the frequency and desire I do badly wanted. I was happy. And then I would get complacent and things would change for the worse until I got back on the wagon. So, at least for me, there was a blueprint I could follow (once I learned how to read it) that worked.

And knowing what I now know, in all honesty, I would never do it again. To me, it's not worth it in the end. It's not worth the effort to decipher the contradictory vagaries of a wife's sexual desire, anymore than it's worth the effort to pour a foundation upon the sand. And spare me the "but husbands can be LD too" chorus. Of course they can. I speak only from my own experience.

Young, no kids, and sex ranking on the rise? Clear the LZ, pop smoke, and wait for the chopper to sky out to a better place.

Because trust me, if lasting change is your goal, you can get it. But only if you're willing to never in your life to allow yourself a sanctuary of downtime where you are off the clock.

My wife has given me the greatest things in my life. My children. I wouldn't trade that for the world. She's also gifted me the worst things in my life - years of unrequited desire, passion, affirmation, and more. If I didn't have the former, I would never tolerate the latter. And if the former didn't exist but the latter did, the last thing I would do is even consider sticking around. And then if she also told you to jerk off more???? Are you f'ing kidding me?

A person says that to you, and you want to fulfill her need for non-sexual intimacy? Give her a foot massage and listen to her trials and tribulations, and then when she's soundly asleep, and fully content, you what? Grab her bottle of Jergens and go to town on yourself? Maybe do it lefty so it feels new and different? Gimme a f'ing break.

Read my thread and choose wisely. I wouldn't make same choices again. And if I were at the stage of life you are .... well, I'd learn to be happily alone. Seriously.
I'll take a look at your thread when I get some more posts under my belt. Either way, your cautionary tale makes me wonder if my optimism (whatever's left of it) is naive. I've considered what it would mean for me to leave the relationship, and that's a painful thing in itself. I'm still confident the wife and I can find a better path than the one we're in. It's just going to involve ripping the band-aid off.
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post #73 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Originally Posted by WilliamM View Post
If my wife told me to masturbate more, I would tell her there was no reason to be married.

But I told my wife soon after we met that she had to have sex with me every day or I would think she did not love me. There's only one way to my heart, and it's through sex. She agreed, and has stuck to it, even through all the hell I have put her through. So I have nothing to compare to.

I can't understand why you are being so nice about it. Snarl some, and get assertive. Well, that's my way, anyway. But my wife calls me the big bad wolf, and responds very well to my assertiveness.

Oh, and Mary says besides, if she told me to masturbate more, I would just grab her and masturbate her, because of course I interpret it that way...
I'm going to take your advice and summon the primordial wolf inside me. One can be both assertive and respectful, both kind and firm. That's a good balance, and a good way to be.
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post #74 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 08:23 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Originally Posted by astral.wheats View Post
I'll take a look at your thread when I get some more posts under my belt. Either way, your cautionary tale makes me wonder if my optimism (whatever's left of it) is naive. I've considered what it would mean for me to leave the relationship, and that's a painful thing in itself. I'm still confident the wife and I can find a better path than the one we're in. It's just going to involve ripping the band-aid off.
You can't change her. You can only change what you're willing to tolerate. So, understand that the bandaid that needs to be ripped off is actually on your own skin. And therefore, you can cause yourself fleeting severe pain or prolonged pain, depending on your approach.

Optimism is fine in the abstract. Strive for realism.

What do you want?

How long do you imagine you will want it?

What will you do when your needs are irrelevant? Can you recover from that? Do you know you already have acquiesced to being there?
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post #75 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 08:34 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Originally Posted by Tex X View Post
That wasn't my experience at all. A lot of that book applied to me, and I took it seriously and made some serious changes. One of the themes of the book is that it may make your marriage better or send it to a long overdue grave. My marriage ended and divorced finalized over a year ago, and I haven't felt better. That book wasn't everything to me, but it was a real eye opener and a very valuable tool for me.

So if you're saying that guys that come to TAM are just looking for easy answers and too lazy to do to the work, well ok. There are plenty of those. But why discount a useful tool just because it's pop psychology to you? Fine if it wasn't for you, but why dump on something potentially useful just because you don't think it is?
One does not really need a book to tell them it's time to bail out. Instinct works just as well.

I'm not a big fan of pop psychology books in general, and that includes much of the obligatory reading list in Tam.

Maybe after studying psychology for a decade I know a thing or two more than the average stiff on the subject?

A few books - generally written by professionals - are a bit more "credible" in my view. Schnarch (sp?) And a few more are good - but any book that oversimplifies human sexuality into a checklist and a condominium timeshare rah rah sales pitch isn't going to be quite as credible in my view.

Most guys coming here are looking for answers, period. The problem is there may not be any, easy or hard. As you said, sometimes you need to bail out. At that point you only need your parachute's user manual to tell you how to pull the cord.
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