Intimacy and Resentment - Page 6 - Talk About Marriage
Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

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post #76 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 08:51 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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I'm going to take your advice and summon the primordial wolf inside me. One can be both assertive and respectful, both kind and firm. That's a good balance, and a good way to be.
Now you're getting it.

If you avoid conflict it also means you're passive. A passive conflict avoidant man is NOT sexy. He makes a great husband/life partner because he actively works to create a peaceful home. But...... Peaceful isn't exciting.

I get that you being fully responsible to bring the sexy, in the dynamic that your wife isn't joyfully responding, is a LOT to put on you. But just as you are now just learning that your sexuality is completely healthy and normal and you should not down play or apologize for wanting to get laid, your wife also has to learn that she will eventually get into it every damn time.

Let me repeat that: your wife has to learn that even if she isn't "in the mood" you can get her there so long as she is open to being turned on. And that's what you should be expecting from your wife. "Be open and willing to be turned on whenever I approach you."

People with strong sex drives want sex frequently because they are always a little bit aroused, or become aroused very quickly. They spontaneously become aroused just by thinking about naked bodies.

People with weak sex drives are rarely spontaneously aroused. They do not become aroused until they have been sexually touched in a pattern that works for them. They can also inhibit their sexual arousal and repress it.

So the husband, sometimes a wife but usually a husband here at TAM, wants his wife to want sex more and she can't, physically can't accommodate this. She can't make herself want sex more often. But she can make herself be open to being turned on and aroused by a pattern of sexual touching that works for her.

This is what you tell/ask/demand/beg your wife: "could you be open to being turned on even if your not in the mood?"

This is what you ask yourself: "can I turn my wife on and get her aroused? Why kind of response do I need from her in order to feel validated?"


Give your wife a lady boner and then ask if she wants sex? "Aha, see? Once you're turned on you want sex, so just let me play with your body and I'll get you there."

Damn, turned myself on with that last line. But I'm easy.

"Some women are blessed with multi-orgasmic ability for a reason and I'm damn sure not going to waste a blessing" ~FrenchFry

"Vaginas are tricky creatures." ~Lucy999
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post #77 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 08:58 PM
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Do yourself a favor and give your attempt 1 year. Do your best to meet her needs. After that year if things don't improve you need to be willing to divorce. Of course you shouldn't tell her you're doing this. Also, you want to ensure she doesn't get pregnant. I'd suggest she goes off any birth control and you start wearing a condom (or two) every time. That way there shouldn't be any "oops" happening. Good luck!
I think that she should know that this "trail period" is happening. Let her know that you will do the best you can to meet her needs and that you expect the same from her. If nothing is resolved, there will be a divorce (you have to be firm on that and let her know there's no changing the date or no excuses. If there's no improvement or you aren't satisfied, it's over). I think this will make her realize that her method of solving the "problem" will not work. I would file the divorce paper work and let her see it so she can see that this is no bull and is the real thing. She obviously thinks she has the upper hand, you have to try to take that position away from her.

Based on what you've said, I don't think you'll do this though. I don't think you're willing to be tough enough on her to solve the problem.

She obviously has no problem being tough with you.
I wouldn't tell her because I'd want to know that any positive results are due to my efforts and not a fear of me divorcing her. Regardless, he can spend a lifetime trying to "figure things out" or he can realize he made a mistake marrying her and move on.
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post #78 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 09:07 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Maybe after studying psychology for a decade I know a thing or two more than the average stiff on the subject?
I don't claim to be an expert - just sharing my experience and what worked for me.
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post #79 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 09:21 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Give your wife a lady boner and then ask if she wants sex? "Aha, see? Once you're turned on you want sex, so just let me play with your body and I'll get you there."

Damn, turned myself on with that last line. But I'm easy.
My wife really enjoyed that post!
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post #80 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 09:26 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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I don't claim to be an expert - just sharing my experience and what worked for me.
It works for some cases. Just like my trusty finasteride (Propecia) pills work for some people 😷

In practice, you need both a descriptive approach - describe what the issue is - as well as a prescriptive approach - how to address. Most DIY books skip the first part by assuming all kinds of things. If the assumptions match one's use case the book​ is golden.

In reality, most men of a certain age, education, and income are Nice. Not just to their wives but to others. Basic sociology. But being Nice doesn't mean all these folk are celibate...
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post #81 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 09:31 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Right! I haven't been super-explicit with her about what I need and how often.
You need to be super-explicit.

My wife loves me.

I'm a very good husband.

Before I clearly told her what I wanted, I didn't get it.

Now that I finally got through to her what I wanted (it took a few times to sink in), she happily gives me what I want.
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post #82 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 09:46 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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And knowing what I now know, in all honesty, I would never do it again. To me, it's not worth it in the end. It's not worth the effort to decipher the contradictory vagaries of a wife's sexual desire, anymore than it's worth the effort to pour a foundation upon the sand.
That answers a question I had near the end of your thread; "Are you happy with having to game your wife to get the results you wanted?"
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post #83 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 11:06 PM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

Astral,
I apologize. Usually I avoid making value judgements. I should not have said - double talk - as it implies intentionality.

I should have said: seemingly contradictory statements.

And I recognize that we all do so. Often unintentionally.

But if you hear only one thing I say - hear this.

It is very, very rare that someone is able to force more sex - through guilt or pressure.

A2 likely has responsive desire - and you can google that - learn how to work with it. Both of you can.

But you also need to create more passion. If you can.

Treating her like she is fragile - when most likely A2 is emotionally stronger than you are - is actually harming the marriage.

This does not mean - being cruel or hateful. It means just saying what is true without anger or malice.

If it was me - I'd switch to a combo barrier - condom plus diaphragm. And I would tell her that there is absolutely no chance of even considering a child without resolving this.

But but but. Resolving this - means - you fixing this conflict avoidant style AND figuring out how to be playful in a physical manner that works for her.

And - likely - you can't read her very well and she thinks it's ok to reject you as much as she likes. The no child thing will force some real honesty. But the hormonal birth control is plain insanity given your issues in this area.



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Originally Posted by astral.wheats View Post
It's less that its unfair, and more that I was confused by what you meant by "double-talk" and also thought some of your assertions were a bit shaky.

I thought I was clear at one point that we have had discussions re:sexual frustrations and desires throughout our relationship (before marriage and after). Maybe I left that out. Some of those discussions were more fruitful than others. It's not a forte for me. After reading a little bit of NMMNG, I definitely have some of the traits--especially a drive to avoid conflict and upsetting others. This definitely hamstrings some of our conversations, so I'm to blame in that aspect. If I could have been more fully open and honest upfront, maybe things would have progressed differently. I take your point, and it's something I have to live/struggle with. I think I'm just now becoming comfortable with the fact that my desires are important and that I deserve to have a good sex life. How messed up is that?

I understand what you mean by one-sided now, although when she does stuff like that, it's not from me asking and it's something she expresses pleasure in. One sided, yet also a mutuality, by my reckoning. Again, I take your broader point. If I wasn't clear enough about wanting more of this in the past, I've sort of dug my own grave. That's a pretty pessimistic way to look at it, but there's an element of truth and accountability there. However, before we took vows, wife agreed that she would try to work on her side of things, and work towards a more regular, satisfying sex life. I trusted her, and still do. We just haven't made it click yet.

Thanks for your response. Helping me to see a bit of a blind spot.
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post #84 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 12:17 AM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

I am going to save you some time and give you the gold from Neuklas's thread.

"Here's what I do know - sitting around the house with a pissy attitude, eating a bunch of crap, putting on 20 pounds, being lazy, and staying up really late playing Call of Duty Ghosts is not a great way to get unsolicited BJs from the wife.

On the other hand, being a bit unavailable because you are out pursuing your passions, being fit, being happy, being cheerful, working to achieve your goals and take care of your family - AND really doing those things because they are important to you, as opposed to just being passively aggressively silent and gone like a little whiny b!tch, seems to result in almost more married sex than you want . . ."

Pay special attention to the 2nd paragraph!
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post #85 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 01:54 AM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

It seems you are basically getting variations of two conflicting pieces of advice here from various posters (Actually you are getting 3 - but I 100% agree with Mem that you can not force someone to have sex with guilt or pressure i.e. threats without risking severe consequences for the relationship and the marriage.)(However IF not having more sex in their marriage is truly a deal breaker for a spouse - sharing that vital piece of information with their spouse is very important!!! And actually that piece of information should be stated at the very beginning of the marriage - or at the least when problems start to occur - or as soon as the HD realizes that he feels that way)

The 2 conflicting pieces of advice you have been given so far are based on totally different situations happening in the marriage. They are also based on the assumption that your wife does not want more sex because of something you are doing or not doing. Its possible that she would not want more sex with anyone no matter what. So keep that in mind. It may have NOTHING to do with you!!!!

The 2 pieces of advice so far:

1. Meet her needs more, spend more time with her, help her feel loved and wanted and valued, date and court her more - and then she will want to have more sex with you. (This will work only if your wife needs or wants you to do all of this - if her perception or reality is that you are gone a lot either physically or emotionally - and often ignore her, her needs and wants - except when you want sex, or you make very little effort to make her feel loved and valued. Remember - it does not have to be the reality - but if it is her perception than that is her reality)

2. Create space, don't meet her needs so readily, concentrate more on yourself, be more manly, more assertive, more straightforward - less available - and then she will desire you more (This can work if in the past you have been around hoovering or smothering your wife too much - or again if this is her perception, that you are too needy, are too compliant, are too wishy washy about your opinions or your expressing your own needs and desires, and are way too attentive to her needs and wants.)

So which one fits your situation, fits with what you have been doing with your wife up till now or what her perception is?

I'll give you a hint of which one I am guessing it is - it's not the one that you have already been doing. More of the same is not going to get you anywhere. I'll also give you another hint - straight from your wife's behavior as you described it - "Cold-shouldering and general withholding. Not a good idea. I know it doesn't lead to any long term change or a better situation. Weirdly though, she seems to get my point after a couple days and then will seek out sex. Then we repeat the cycle."

While you are right that cold-shouldering and general withholding is not a good idea. The fact that when you withdraw - she seeks out sex says something very significant here.

Personally, from what you have written thus far - I think you may have a tendency to hoover and smoother a bit too much. I think you may come across as a bit needy to her. And I am willing to bet money that kind of behavior - or at least too much of it - turns your wife off and/or at the very least makes her smug in thinking she has you where she wants you no matter what. So why does SHE need to do anything different than what she is doing now? You are the one chasing her!!

So I think you might want to take a look at your personality and how you are with her and perhaps give advice #2 or a form of it a try for awhile.

But be aware - that any changes you make can't be fake and they can't be short term. Don't try to turn yourself into something you aren't. You still have to meet her basic needs and desires and there has to be a balance of alpha and beta behaviors on your part. Too much of one and not enough of the other will not work. Going from one spectrum to the other is not good either.

Always remember because this is very important: You have to be authentic to who you are.

Don't make any changes to your behavior or personality solely to get more sex from your wife. That never ever works!!! Look at yourself and evaluate where your weaknesses are and where your strengths are. Make changes to become a better person, a better husband, a better man - because it makes YOU feel better about yourself and makes you more confident and secure with yourself. Otherwise you will just create a situation that you will start to resent - the same as you have now. And nothing will have really changed - you will just move from one frustrating situation to another. Which is where I think Neuklas seems to have found himself. (Just the vibe I am picking up. Feel free to correct me Neuklas) Once you get to the point that you are not needy for sex from your wife - perhaps your offering sexual contact may be more appealing to her.

Authentic, confident, happy, emotionally self sufficient men are attractive. Needy, smothering, childish, moody, insecure are not!

Are you authentic with your wife? Or are you constantly trying to do, say, or act the right way to make her happy or thinking it will lead to more sex? Do you feel free to share what you really think with your wife without worrying about her reaction? Are you dependent or do you come across as dependent on your wife for your happiness, security, or self esteem?

Research reactive sexual desire in women. It may help you understand your wife a little more.

Last edited by mary35; 05-19-2017 at 02:20 AM.
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post #86 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 03:01 AM
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Cool Re: Intimacy and Resentment

Marriage that is non-inclusive of loving sexual relations between its partners is tantamount to being, as the United States Supreme Court has often ruled, to be deemed to be a cruel and unusual punishment!

Or at least in the case of marriage, it damned well ought to be!

"To love another person is to see the face of God!" - Jean Valjean from Les Miserables

My Story! http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-t...andonment.html
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post #87 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 04:12 AM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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2. Create space, don't meet her needs so readily, concentrate more on yourself, be more manly, more assertive, more straightforward - less available - and then she will desire you more (This can work if in the past you have been around hoovering or smothering your wife too much - or again if this is her perception, that you are too needy, are too compliant, are too wishy washy about your opinions or your expressing your own needs and desires, and are way too attentive to her needs and wants.)

So which one fits your situation, fits with what you have been doing with your wife up till now or what her perception is?

I'll give you a hint of which one I am guessing it is - it's not the one that you have already been doing. More of the same is not going to get you anywhere. I'll also give you another hint - straight from your wife's behavior as you described it - "Cold-shouldering and general withholding. Not a good idea. I know it doesn't lead to any long term change or a better situation. Weirdly though, she seems to get my point after a couple days and then will seek out sex. Then we repeat the cycle."

While you are right that cold-shouldering and general withholding is not a good idea. The fact that when you withdraw - she seeks out sex says something very significant here.

Personally, from what you have written thus far - I think you may have a tendency to hoover and smoother a bit too much. I think you may come across as a bit needy to her. And I am willing to bet money that kind of behavior - or at least too much of it - turns your wife off and/or at the very least makes her smug in thinking she has you where she wants you no matter what. So why does SHE need to do anything different than what she is doing now? You are the one chasing her!!

So I think you might want to take a look at your personality and how you are with her and perhaps give advice #2 or a form of it a try for awhile.

But be aware - that any changes you make can't be fake and they can't be short term. Don't try to turn yourself into something you aren't. You still have to meet her basic needs and desires and there has to be a balance of alpha and beta behaviors on your part. Too much of one and not enough of the other will not work. Going from one spectrum to the other is not good either.

Always remember because this is very important: You have to be authentic to who you are.

Don't make any changes to your behavior or personality solely to get more sex from your wife. That never ever works!!! Look at yourself and evaluate where your weaknesses are and where your strengths are. Make changes to become a better person, a better husband, a better man - because it makes YOU feel better about yourself and makes you more confident and secure with yourself. Otherwise you will just create a situation that you will start to resent - the same as you have now. And nothing will have really changed - you will just move from one frustrating situation to another. Which is where I think Neuklas seems to have found himself. (Just the vibe I am picking up. Feel free to correct me Neuklas) Once you get to the point that you are not needy for sex from your wife - perhaps your offering sexual contact may be more appealing to her.

Authentic, confident, happy, emotionally self sufficient men are attractive. Needy, smothering, childish, moody, insecure are not!

Are you authentic with your wife? Or are you constantly trying to do, say, or act the right way to make her happy or thinking it will lead to more sex? Do you feel free to share what you really think with your wife without worrying about her reaction? Are you dependent or do you come across as dependent on your wife for your happiness, security, or self esteem?

Research reactive sexual desire in women. It may help you understand your wife a little more.
I agree with everything here re: #2. Mary is spot on.

As for me, I did change for me. I'm better off for it and happy I did it. I needed to do it because I had become complacent about some areas of my life. I don't have any regrets about the effort I needed to put forth there or the determination to make those changes permanent.

When I say I wouldn't do it again, I guess what I really mean is I would not bother to rekindle lost sexual desire in a relationship without children. Instead, I would understand that I made a poor choice and I would move on. Because if it's that way without kids, there is very little chance of it getting better after you add a few of them and all their activities and the way they change your wife's view of herself - her new primary responsibility to be mom first and not wife, and then add a larger mortgage, more work stress and responsibility, and several years of inertia where you have tolerated bad behavior from her towards you re: meeting your needs.

That's a deep hole to climb out of, and yes, OP is doing some of the digging. So, if he wants to climb out and fill in the hole, for himself, he should. However, what I found is the hole is even easier to dig the second time, third time, etc. The dirt is loose and the shovel goes in pretty easy. Therefore, if I did not have some strong, compelling, lifelong reasons to plant myself on that patch of ground, I'd take a stroll for a while. And maybe on that stroll I'd find another patch of ground that was more pleasing, and much more difficult to dig into.
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post #88 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 04:37 AM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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That answers a question I had near the end of your thread; "Are you happy with having to game your wife to get the results you wanted?"
@Buddy400 your post from the end of my thread:

So, I read this entire thread in one go last night, stayed up way too late. Lately it's been very important that I get enough sleep and I thought (many times) to myself how weird it was that I was staying up late to do this. I do a lot of thinking about topics I consider important. Lately I've been thinking a lot about relationships, particularly between men and women, particularly about sex. Since my usual interests are History, Public Policy, Global Warming and Baseball, this topic doesn't seem to fit. Especially since I have few problems in this area personally. But, then again, what’s more important than sex?

I was describing what I’d spent the last night doing to a friend that shares the same diverse group of interests. He asked what the story was and I highlighted the main elements of Nueklas’ tale. As I got near the end, he asked “Does it end well?”.

Well, that depends. It seemed like a happy ending. After all, there’d been self-improvement, more satisfying sex. But I was haunted by something Nueklas had said early on: "I fight all day at work. It's business. No one is going to give it to you, so you have to take it. Home is the sanctuary. Last thing I want there is more of what I just left at the office. It's not so much conflict avoidance at that point as it is a strong desire to have one place in your life with no conflict at all."

By that measure, maybe it wasn’t that happy an ending after all. He’s got to be on the top of his game all day long at work and he just wants to come home and have his wife respect him, love him, enjoy his company and relax in his “sanctuary”. I don’t think that’s a bad thing to want. Sure, constant striving leads to more achievement. But really, sometimes you just want to relax. Be at home. Whatever was going on in his wife’s head; could it really have been worth taking this away from him?
--------------------------------------------------------------

I'd answer your question this way: without my children, who I adore, no, it's not worth it. Which is why, if I were the OP and at his stage of life, I would run for the hills.
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post #89 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 06:12 AM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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How much time are you spending together meeting eachother's emotional needs? How often are you two having sex a week, and how often are you meeting her needs for intimate conversation, non-sexual affection, and companionship (doing fun things together)?

For women to desire sex, they need 2 things:

1. An emotional connection
2. The prospect of enjoyment

You may think you're doing enough to make her feel connected enough to desire sex, and it may be true that you do a ton for her, but if you're not spending enough time meeting her emotional intimate needs (listed above), she's simply not going to desire sex.
That may very well be the case, but why isn't she doing something about her needs getting met? It seems that it's always the partner who is having less sex than they desire who is expected to meet the others needs first, with the "promise" of more sex as a result.

Why not the other way around? OP will desire more non-sexual intimacy with his wife, if his needs are more closely being met, no?

Yet the default response to the person who's needs are sexual, and not being met, is that they have to ensure their partner (who is withholding sex) is getting their needs met first. It's never the other way around.

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post #90 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 07:01 AM
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Re: Intimacy and Resentment

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Now you're getting it.

If you avoid conflict it also means you're passive. A passive conflict avoidant man is NOT sexy. He makes a great husband/life partner because he actively works to create a peaceful home. But...... Peaceful isn't exciting.

I get that you being fully responsible to bring the sexy, in the dynamic that your wife isn't joyfully responding, is a LOT to put on you. But just as you are now just learning that your sexuality is completely healthy and normal and you should not down play or apologize for wanting to get laid, your wife also has to learn that she will eventually get into it every damn time.

Let me repeat that: your wife has to learn that even if she isn't "in the mood" you can get her there so long as she is open to being turned on. And that's what you should be expecting from your wife. "Be open and willing to be turned on whenever I approach you."

People with strong sex drives want sex frequently because they are always a little bit aroused, or become aroused very quickly. They spontaneously become aroused just by thinking about naked bodies.

People with weak sex drives are rarely spontaneously aroused. They do not become aroused until they have been sexually touched in a pattern that works for them. They can also inhibit their sexual arousal and repress it.

So the husband, sometimes a wife but usually a husband here at TAM, wants his wife to want sex more and she can't, physically can't accommodate this. She can't make herself want sex more often. But she can make herself be open to being turned on and aroused by a pattern of sexual touching that works for her.

This is what you tell/ask/demand/beg your wife: "could you be open to being turned on even if your not in the mood?"

This is what you ask yourself: "can I turn my wife on and get her aroused? Why kind of response do I need from her in order to feel validated?"


Give your wife a lady boner and then ask if she wants sex? "Aha, see? Once you're turned on you want sex, so just let me play with your body and I'll get you there."

Damn, turned myself on with that last line. But I'm easy.
Beautifully said Anon Pink!! Loving your advice, and @mary35 's as well
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