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Sex in Marriage Sexual problems are common in many relationships. This section is for discussions about sexuality. Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice. Any other threads may be deleted.

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Old 02-05-2012, 08:36 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: husband dislikes giving (TMI warning)

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Originally Posted by tacoma View Post
Yet again...

This is why you don`t marry someone you`ve never slept with.
Here`s my advice..

You can continue to believe this is going to get better and live the next few years sexually miserable building resentment and crushed self esteem from your husbands constant rejection of your sex until you absolutely hate him and THEN divorce him to discover a man who actually appreciates a womans body.

OR

You can get the divorce now and save yourself years of pain and therapy.

Your call but the only other option is to never divorce him and live your entire life with the resentment and hatred, eventually ending up celibate in a sexless relationship like two roomates who dislike each other.

Edit:

I have three ..yes three...lifelong friends who were absolutely disgusted by the idea of performing oral sex on a girl in high school.
Now 25 years later each and every one of them is still disgusted by the idea of performing oral on a woman.

Yes, they`re all lifelong bachelors.

It`s unlikely to change.


Waiting until marriage for sex often leads to crippling inhibitions.

Who would buy a car without taking it for a test drive?
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:49 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Waiting until marriage for sex often leads to crippling inhibitions.

Who would buy a car without taking it for a test drive?
While I see you laughing, I think this analogy is taken too seriously too often.

I'm not aware of any studies that link abstinance until marriage with crippling inhibitions - neither higher nor lower incidence of them. It would be interesting to see if any study exists, and if it does, if other social factors are also involved. However; this board provides plenty of opportunity to observe for crippling inhibitions in a non-scientific environment and ask about such factors as whether or not a test drive was taken.

I am aware of at least one study that links taking multiple cars on test drives (metaphorically speaking of course) to a higher incidence of divorce, and this is the Teachman study. I'm not so familiar with the internals of the study which would include any other factors involved. Going just from the abstract and conclusion, it would seem that marrying a partner who has had partners before, or if you are such a partner, may decrease the chances of a successful marriage.

I think the statement you put in your message is one mythbusters should take up. From what I can see, the sentiment expressed doesn't seem to hold up when studies in a scientific study.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:51 PM   #33 (permalink)
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i do not know what to really tell you this just baffles me as i am just amazed that you guy's married without knowing anything about each other. He is selfish and seems rather immature on the topics of sex and has a hedonistic view point of sex it almost seems not only that but it amazes me he finds his own wife's vagina "Gross". All in all you can only change a person so much i cannot tell you that how you two went about your relationship before marriage was wrong because that would be unfair. However i find it astounding that you know so little about each other it seems and that the sex is almost non existent and you are both unhappy primarily you in regards to the sex in your marriage which in itself is never at all a good thing. A person who is selfish when it comes to sex is setting themselves up for failure on the part of having of finding a partner who is so willing to ignore and than in part try to disregard their own wants and desires that is a hard person to find.

Anyhow best of luck and i suggest you two talk it over and you state your side.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:53 PM   #34 (permalink)
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While I see you laughing, I think this analogy is taken too seriously too often.

I'm not aware of any studies that link abstinance until marriage with crippling inhibitions - neither higher nor lower incidence of them. It would be interesting to see if any study exists, and if it does, if other social factors are also involved. However; this board provides plenty of opportunity to observe for crippling inhibitions in a non-scientific environment and ask about such factors as whether or not a test drive was taken.

I am aware of at least one study that links taking multiple cars on test drives (metaphorically speaking of course) to a higher incidence of divorce, and this is the Teachman study. I'm not so familiar with the internals of the study which would include any other factors involved. Going just from the abstract and conclusion, it would seem that marrying a partner who has had partners before, or if you are such a partner, may decrease the chances of a successful marriage.

I think the statement you put in your message is one mythbusters should take up. From what I can see, the sentiment expressed doesn't seem to hold up when studies in a scientific study.
i think often it leads to problems in the cases the people know little about each other. If you have been together for years or know everything about one another and than you marry than finally have sex i would imagine little problems happen. However marrying than the two of you just than having sex while you also know little of each other is often a set up for failure and often i find the marriage is pushed in those cases. Sex is a very important part of a majority of all healthy relationships and seems to be of an up most importance in regards to long term relationships. I remember hearing and reading that humans are most happy when they are having sex now imagine sex with someone you truly love and care about you cannot beat those feelings of joy. Now imagine never being pleased or cared or being tended to during sex that can lead to problems.
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:37 PM   #35 (permalink)
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i think often it leads to problems in the cases the people know little about each other. If you have been together for years or know everything about one another and than you marry than finally have sex i would imagine little problems happen. However marrying than the two of you just than having sex while you also know little of each other is often a set up for failure and often i find the marriage is pushed in those cases. Sex is a very important part of a majority of all healthy relationships and seems to be of an up most importance in regards to long term relationships. I remember hearing and reading that humans are most happy when they are having sex now imagine sex with someone you truly love and care about you cannot beat those feelings of joy. Now imagine never being pleased or cared or being tended to during sex that can lead to problems.
This is a valid statement since it begins with "I think ... " I also post what I think, and much of that is based on my experience, but nevertheless, it is what I think. (I'll bring in discussion about confirmation bias, cognitive bias, and cognitive dissonance at another time as we all use these to defend what we think). I always like to discuss with someone who knows we are both discussing what we think, and neither of us has the final answer.

Let me challenge a little bit of the rest of what you are saying, though. In doing this, let me share a little more about when my wife and I got married. I'm not recommending this course of action to anyone, but this is the true start to our marriage.

I met my wife because I was lost in a foreign country, and she was the only one who had studied English at all in the place where I stopped to find help (and her English was not good at that time). She went so far out of her way to help that she went and got some of her own money and paid for a taxi to get me back to where I needed to go. I felt terrible about it, so I made notes of where this place was, and the next day, I returned there in a taxi to be sure I paid her back even though she never asked me to do that.

There are a few critical events that happened in the next few days that I don't have time or space to write here, but to shorten it down: I proposed to her two weeks after I met her. We were married 3 months after we met. I posted above that it was 6 months after we were married before we even learned to make her orgasm, so sex wasn't perfect when we got married. However; the way I think about it, it would have taken us six months to learn that even if we weren't married. I'm really glad we didn't just give up, because 27 years after being married, our sex life is great. We had a lot to learn, just as I said in my first post in this thread, but we learned it together, and we improved over the years as I've posted in other threads. I have a lot of info if you're interested in the "How would you classify your sex" thread, and you can see there that there is nothing resembling a dissatifying inhibition. I also describe there very briefly how it developed over the years, and it did take years to get anywhere close to where we are today.

I'm glad I didn't just try it out and decide "Well, she's not very good in bed" and just leave it there because if I had, I would have missed out on the greatest friend and blessing in my life, and someone who would develop into a great sex partner over the years. I can promise you I wasn't very good, so I'm likewise glad she didn't just try me out and decide I wasn't very good and she needed to move on. I'm doubly glad that the person I REALLY learned about sex with was her - no regret, and if I had it to do over again, that's exactly how I'd want it to happen next time.

We can discuss our social backgrounds if you'd like, but the reason I just don't buy the arguments that people so casually toss out about how you need to test drive the car first and if it isn't good when you test drive it, then you're setting yourself up for failure to continue is because I have my own experience to draw from. It started awkwardly, and in a manner that nobody would recommend a relationship start, and it became something great - the greatest blessing in my life. (BTW, No, I didn't recommend to my kids that they start relationships like this, either, but they all know the story).

But back to your opening sentence, after 27 years of marriage, I'm comfortable, and very much in love with that lady, but I STILL don't know everything about her. I know enough about her to trust her, but if you think about it, she made a big gesture that helped that trust the first time she met this stupid American who was out exploring in her country without even taking enough money to pay for a taxi.

I also realize you said "often" and not "always," and I realize what that means .

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Old 02-05-2012, 11:56 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Awesome post Shy_guy; I really enjoyed reading the story of you and your wife.

So my plane ticket to see my husband in his country at the end of this month has been confirmed. He and I really need to have a deep talk about our issues (including sexuality) and I hope we will have that talk either tonight or tomorrow.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:00 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I don't particularly enjoy going down on my husband, but I do it because he likes it and I like making him happy.

I think that marriage, more than anything, is about mutual compromise and sacrifice. I don't think the dealbreaker is him not wanting to go down on you, it's the fact that he doesn't want to do something simply to make you happy.

I'd be like quit whining, it's just a vagina. Now get down there and shut up. lol
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:27 AM   #38 (permalink)
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When he does give your Oral act like its the greatest thing in the world and make all kinds of sounds of pleasure,let him know that he is making you go crazy.

We you do get together again just have a good old day of exploring each others naked bodies,lick,suck,caress and anything else you want to do and he should catch on to do the same,but hold off on the intercourse.If you don't have some go out and get some flavored lube and use it everywhere.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:02 AM   #39 (permalink)
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While I see you laughing, I think this analogy is taken too seriously too often.

I'm not aware of any studies that link abstinance until marriage with crippling inhibitions - neither higher nor lower incidence of them. It would be interesting to see if any study exists, and if it does, if other social factors are also involved. However; this board provides plenty of opportunity to observe for crippling inhibitions in a non-scientific environment and ask about such factors as whether or not a test drive was taken.

I am aware of at least one study that links taking multiple cars on test drives (metaphorically speaking of course) to a higher incidence of divorce, and this is the Teachman study. I'm not so familiar with the internals of the study which would include any other factors involved. Going just from the abstract and conclusion, it would seem that marrying a partner who has had partners before, or if you are such a partner, may decrease the chances of a successful marriage.

I think the statement you put in your message is one mythbusters should take up. From what I can see, the sentiment expressed doesn't seem to hold up when studies in a scientific study.
I honestly don't care about scientific studies when it comes to this issue. I have seen too many marriages have MAJOR sexual problems because of this outdated notion of virginity until marriage. My beliefs come from my vast personal experience, as well as what I read on TAM.

I can't be the only person who has seen sexual inexperience cause problems. So maybe if Mythbusters looked into this issue, you might be very surprised.

Your answer comes from wanting to validate your marriage and the way abstinence worked for you and your wife. In these times, you are the exception and not the rule. You were married nearly THIRTY years ago! That is why I did not say that marriages like yours "never" work out.

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Old 02-06-2012, 10:34 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I honestly don't care about scientific studies when it comes to this issue. I have seen too many marriages have MAJOR sexual problems because of this outdated notion of virginity until marriage. My beliefs come from my vast personal experience, as well as what I read on TAM.

I can't be the only person who has seen sexual inexperience cause problems. So maybe if Mythbusters looked into this issue, you might be very surprised.

Your answer comes from wanting to validate your marriage and the way abstinence worked for you and your wife. In these times, you are the exception and not the rule. You were married nearly THIRTY years ago! That is why I did not say that marriages like yours "never" work out.
You make a lot of assumptions when you begin wanting to tell me where my answer comes from. Do tendencies to make these types of assumptions figure into how you form other opinions as well?

This is, in fact, what I meant when I said I understand about confirmation bias, cognitive bias, and how we defend out perceptions from things that contradict it with our Cognitive Dissonance. We all have these things, and make use of these things. The funny thing is that it is usually easier to spot in someone else than in ourselves when we make arguments.

You might recognize that I also recognize that I am an exception at least in some ways when I say I wouldn't recommend anyone start like this.

TAM is a place where mostly people with problems come. Would you agree? If this is true, then I would think it would also mean that we can get a skewed view of the real situation if we look at problems here and think it is the norm. I can see problems here, no doubt. I don't really see the inhibitions caused by abstinence until marriage, though. But regardless, I would have to think that any type of problem expressed here is going to seem more common than it is in the population as a whole, just because of the nature of the site. What are your thoughts on this?

I'm sure that you see examples in your experience just as I do, but we do need to be aware of how our cognitive processes filter our perception to confirm what we already believe, or what we want to believe. Studies are one thing that can help us to get past these cognitive processes and emotional filters to see if our beliefs really hold up.

Admittedly, with mythbusters, I was making a bit of an attempt at a joke. But what I like about that show is that they take on things that people have always assumed to be true, and often show that they are not true. I might be surprised at the results of any study, that's true, but my point is that neither of us really have anything to base an objective conclusion on. I give what I think based in part on my experience. While you may think that you have something objective to offer that contradicts that, what you have is really the same thing that I have, and nothing more.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:13 PM   #41 (permalink)
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You make a lot of assumptions when you begin wanting to tell me where my answer comes from. Do tendencies to make these types of assumptions figure into how you form other opinions as well?

This is, in fact, what I meant when I said I understand about confirmation bias, cognitive bias, and how we defend out perceptions from things that contradict it with our Cognitive Dissonance. We all have these things, and make use of these things. The funny thing is that it is usually easier to spot in someone else than in ourselves when we make arguments.

You might recognize that I also recognize that I am an exception at least in some ways when I say I wouldn't recommend anyone start like this. I'd be very interested in knowing why you do not recommend it. How can you defend a choice that you don't recommend to others?

TAM is a place where mostly people with problems come. Would you agree? If this is true, then I would think it would also mean that we can get a skewed view of the real situation if we look at problems here and think it is the norm. I can see problems here, no doubt. I don't really see the inhibitions caused by abstinence until marriage, though. But regardless, I would have to think that any type of problem expressed here is going to seem more common than it is in the population as a whole, just because of the nature of the site. What are your thoughts on this? Just because you don't see something, it doesn't mean it isn't there. My beliefs about sex before marriage also come from the countless examples in my own life as well as TAM.

I was raised Catholic and catholic schoolgirls are often indoctrinated to view sex as something to be feared. The women I know that stayed in the church all complained about sexual inhibitions and issues. They also spoke of the taboo around discussing sexual problems with their religious peers; it was seen as uncouth. I was the go-to girl for advice about sex because I refused to wait until marriage.

I don't think TAM is necessarily a microcosm of society; people on this website seem very conservative. How interesting that you chose to ignore my personal experience as a reason for my beliefs; you're seeing what you choose to see and admitting that your path is not one that others should take. Cognitive dissonance at it's best.


I'm sure that you see examples in your experience just as I do, but we do need to be aware of how our cognitive processes filter our perception to confirm what we already believe, or what we want to believe. Studies are one thing that can help us to get past these cognitive processes and emotional filters to see if our beliefs really hold up.

Admittedly, with mythbusters, I was making a bit of an attempt at a joke. But what I like about that show is that they take on things that people have always assumed to be true, and often show that they are not true. I might be surprised at the results of any study, that's true, but my point is that neither of us really have anything to base an objective conclusion on. I give what I think based in part on my experience. While you may think that you have something objective to offer that contradicts that, what you have is really the same thing that I have, and nothing more.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I'd be very interested in knowing why you do not recommend it. How can you defend a choice that you don't recommend to others?
The context in which I offered that account was in response to an assertion about marrying someone you don't know well, and in what that would mean to know someone well. My experience says "Not always," and that experience is what it is whether it was a good idea or not. I'm not defending the way I went about it, but there are details that I left out in those critical events I spoke about that provides more of my motivation. If I had time to give them, you might understand a little bit better why I went forward so quickly.

I would not recommend someone propose 2 weeks after meeting someone and be married 3 months later despite what I did. The reason is that there are obvious risks. My younger daughter who is getting married next month had a courtship much more in line with what my ideals are. However; you can't just dismiss my experience and say that someone who does like what I did will never be happy, will be inhibited, will have problems, or will get a divorce. Is there really any more chance that someone who does this is at any more risk than someone who has multiple partners before marriage and finds the one they think is "right?" I think there might be, but honestly, that's just what I think - I don't have anything to objectively tell me whether chances are higher in any statistically signifiant amount.

I did what I did. It is what it is. It turned out like it turned out. I can now look at it in hindsight and see 27 years of the results - I'm not guessing about those 27 years anymore, nor taking anybody's word for what it will be like. My experience means what it means, and I give it just for the benefit of someone who may find it beneficial. Because I think there may be risks, I can't give that type of courtship a recommendation.

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I was raised Catholic and catholic schoolgirls are often indoctrinated to view sex as something to be feared. The women I know that stayed in the church all complained about sexual inhibitions and issues. They also spoke of the taboo around discussing sexual problems with their religious peers; it was seen as uncouth. I was the go-to girl for advice about sex because I refused to wait until marriage.

I don't think TAM is necessarily a microcosm of society; people on this website seem very conservative. How interesting that you chose to ignore my personal experience as a reason for my beliefs; you're seeing what you choose to see and admitting that your path is not one that others should take. Cognitive dissonance at it's best.
Here's a very important additional factor. You are telling me about what Catholic girls are taught about sex, and how it is to be feared. I can see that this can bring about many inhibitions, but that is separate from being taught to abstain until marriage.

In my background, I was raised in a protestant church. My mother told me that God invented sex, and He thought it was a good idea or He wouldn't have invented it. She did tell me it was reserved for marriage, but that it should be fully expressed between a husband and a wife. She also got books for me about marriage and sex when I was in high school - some very explicit books written from a Christian perspective.

My wife grew up in a Buddhist household where sex wasn't really discussed. She got an absolute minimal instruction growing up. She told me she actually cried when she got her first period because she thought there was something seriously wrong with her, and her mother and sisters first laughed at her for crying, then explained it to her. She later left home because she converted to Christianity shortly before she met me, and that was considered a very bad thing in her household.

So three very different backgrounds. Can you see that these might bring about very different perspectives on sex regardless of whether the people involved waited until marriage or not?

I'm asserting that the inhibitions you are giving come more from the instructions the people received than from whether or not they abstained before marriage.

(For my wife: Just as her mother and sisters explained her period to her after it started, her mother explained sex in marriage to her very well once she was married. She was naieve, but she did not have any inhibitions when we were married. If you're looking for a contradiction in my story, yes, she was reconciled with her parents after she left home. That's another story involving a lot of cultural elements.)

Now the original poster comes on and I (admittedly looking for this because of my background) think there are cultural and moral aspects to her decisions. I recognize from my situation that morals and culture add a great deal to the marriage (looking back on 27 years, not guessing what those 27 years might be like for us), and they do not have to be an inhibition. Her morals and culture are a big part of who she is. I don't see anything beneficial in telling her her moral beliefs are in error, especially since I don't think they are. The question now becomes, what does she do from here? I don't see her experience at this point in her life as confirming anything about whether or not a person should have sex before getting married - that's a separate issue all together.

This is the angle I have answered from. Giving my experience here is just intended, just as when I share my experience elsewhere, to give an example why I may disagree with someone when I do, or just to say, "Here's the road I walked. Maybe you can get some benefit from what I learned." In the end, the OP owns the decision on what course of action she is going to take. I don't want to own the decision for her, I just want to give some benefit from experience, and let her take that into account along with others who may be willing to share experience. I learn from others, and I just want to offer the opportunity back if it is helpful. If it isn't helpful, she is certainly free to ignore it.

I'm sure I exercised some cognitive dissonance in that since we all do that. Can you understand what I'm saying, though? Do you disagree with me in this?

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:20 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The context in which I offered that account was in response to an assertion about marrying someone you don't know well, and in what that would mean to know someone well. My experience says "Not always," and that experience is what it is whether it was a good idea or not. I'm not defending the way I went about it, but there are details that I left out in those critical events I spoke about that provides more of my motivation. If I had time to give them, you might understand a little bit better why I went forward so quickly.

I would not recommend someone propose 2 weeks after meeting someone and be married 3 months later despite what I did. The reason is that there are obvious risks. My younger daughter who is getting married next month had a courtship much more in line with what my ideals are. However; you can't just dismiss my experience and say that someone who does like what I did will never be happy, will be inhibited, will have problems, or will get a divorce. I did not use the word "never". Thanks for clarifying what you wouldn't recommend.Is there really any more chance that someone who does this is at any more risk than someone who has multiple partners before marriage and finds the one they think is "right?" I think there might be, but honestly, that's just what I think - I don't have anything to objectively tell me whether chances are higher in any statistically signifiant amount.

I did what I did. It is what it is. It turned out like it turned out. I can now look at it in hindsight and see 27 years of the results - I'm not guessing about those 27 years anymore, nor taking anybody's word for what it will be like. My experience means what it means, and I give it just for the benefit of someone who may find it beneficial. Because I think there may be risks, I can't give that type of courtship a recommendation.
Makes complete sense.



Here's a very important additional factor. You are telling me about what Catholic girls are taught about sex, and how it is to be feared. I can see that this can bring about many inhibitions, but that is separate from being taught to abstain until marriage.
The abstinence based education also asserted that sex was only for procreation, which is also a destructive message.

In my background, I was raised in a protestant church. My mother told me that God invented sex, and He thought it was a good idea or He wouldn't have invented it. She did tell me it was reserved for marriage, but that it should be fully expressed between a husband and a wife. She also got books for me about marriage and sex when I was in high school - some very explicit books written from a Christian perspective.

My wife grew up in a Buddhist household where sex wasn't really discussed. She got an absolute minimal instruction growing up. She told me she actually cried when she got her first period because she thought there was something seriously wrong with her, and her mother and sisters first laughed at her for crying, then explained it to her. She later left home because she converted to Christianity shortly before she met me, and that was considered a very bad thing in her household.

So three very different backgrounds. Can you see that these might bring about very different perspectives on sex regardless of whether the people involved waited until marriage or not? Of course.

I'm asserting that the inhibitions you are giving come more from the instructions the people received than from whether or not they abstained before marriage.

(For my wife: Just as her mother and sisters explained her period to her after it started, her mother explained sex in marriage to her very well once she was married. She was naieve, but she did not have any inhibitions when we were married. If you're looking for a contradiction in my story, yes, she was reconciled with her parents after she left home. That's another story involving a lot of cultural elements.)

Now the original poster comes on and I (admittedly looking for this because of my background) think there are cultural and moral aspects to her decisions. I recognize from my situation that morals and culture add a great deal to the marriage (looking back on 27 years, not guessing what those 27 years might be like for us), and they do not have to be an inhibition. Her morals and culture are a big part of who she is. I don't see anything beneficial in telling her her moral beliefs are in error, especially since I don't think they are. The question now becomes, what does she do from here? I don't see her experience at this point in her life as confirming anything about whether or not a person should have sex before getting married - that's a separate issue all together.

This is the angle I have answered from. Giving my experience here is just intended, just as when I share my experience elsewhere, to give an example why I may disagree with someone when I do, or just to say, "Here's the road I walked. Maybe you can get some benefit from what I learned." In the end, the OP owns the decision on what course of action she is going to take. I don't want to own the decision for her, I just want to give some benefit from experience, and let her take that into account along with others who may be willing to share experience. I learn from others, and I just want to offer the opportunity back if it is helpful. If it isn't helpful, she is certainly free to ignore it.

I'm sure I exercised some cognitive dissonance in that since we all do that. Can you understand what I'm saying, though? Do you disagree with me in this?
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:50 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: husband dislikes giving (TMI warning)

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Here's a very important additional factor. You are telling me about what Catholic girls are taught about sex, and how it is to be feared. I can see that this can bring about many inhibitions, but that is separate from being taught to abstain until marriage.
I disagree, respectfully. Making something sound horrible and frightening is a useful tool in making sure people don't want to do it.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:47 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: husband dislikes giving (TMI warning)

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How many women **** the brains out of their hubby to be and then quit when the first kid comes along? That's a heck of a lot more common than problems between two virgins.
A bait and switch is different than a physical attraction/incompatability. Like, what if she wanted a circumsized man, and he wasn't. Or what if there is an odor issue, you'd want to know these things before you're stuck. the likliehood of divorce/unhappiness is equal in both, so i'd rather at least have some fun before it goes south.
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