MEM11363

Brown,
I want to back up to a post you made earlier. You mentioned that she dislikes that you "show her too much affection".

Something seems "off" to me. More so even than with the sex. Granted I am "wired for touch" so we touch a LOT. It is also true that I have a good sense for the times when I think perhaps she wants some physical space - but that is rare.

If being touched, huggged, caressed, etc. feels BAD to your W that is a distinct and major league problem. I do not grope my W - but have posted about how our full body hugs are very intimate if not explicitly sexual. I would never, ever hug anyone else like that.

How often do you say "I love you" to her? How often do you initiate saying it? How often does she?

This might seem odd but I know for certain that if were always the one saying "ILY" first, my W would feel crowded and would NOT want much affection. If you are primarily the driver of the "ILY / I miss you / I love you so much" etc. you might try an experiment. STOP initiating for a week and let her set the pace. If she says it, say it back. Watch what happens.

If you have this routine where every time you leave the house you say "ILY" - switch to a friendly "see you later".

Part of the reason your W may take you for granted (she doesn't WANT to - she just does) is that if you are initiating too much - you seem clingy. And the affection just reinforces that.

This might be obvious - but when I hug my W - it is all about HER - what comes across to her is the "He is showing me love - he isn't doing this so I will show him love".

Browncoat

Good idea MEM. I'll do just that. Yes I typically am the initiator of ILYs, so I'll just hold back except in response to her's. To be honest though I'll have to pay attention to really know how often I say ILY though, to be honest not 100% sure.

I was planning to ratchet things way back over the next week and a half until the next ST session anyway. I'm going to let her initiate any physical activity and I'm just going to reciprocate the same level of affection she gives.

Just in general I'm going to back off even further than I have been already. I already have dramatically cut down how much I talk to her during the day and the little shows of affection over the past month. I don't even initiate sex anymore (outside of once). To be honest I'm just feeling emotionally spent and tired, so a break may just be in order anyway.

Tall Average Guy

So she can stay in the moment for others, but not for you? At least as far as sex is concerned - what about in other areas? Does she do anything else for you that she does not enjoy (take in a ball game when she hates sports, help you with an unpleasant chore). If so, how is here demeanor as compared to when she helps others doing things she does not like.

Browncoat

I've always been very careful to not include others in things I like but I know they don't. I almost never talk about work or my hobbies... I just don't like to bore people. In fact the moment I can tell on someone's face that they've lost interest I typically get them talking about themselves or their interests immediately.

I also don't ask for help when I can do something myself. I don't like to bother people.

So to answer your question, no she doesn't suffer through other things for my sake... because I never ask. If anything I tend to take an attitude of: I'm fine, I've got this.

When I do need help she helps, but typically it's short/quick little jobs that take a matter of seconds.

Tall Average Guy

So does she put herself out there for you in anything? Is there anything that she does for you out of the joy of giving to you, even if it is not something she likes? If so, what is her demeanor in those things?

Browncoat

Sadly I'll have to think about this.

Again not really sure there's a lot of opportunity to do things for me that she doesn't like or isn't already doing for the family as a whole.

I very rarely ask for anything, even around the holidays or my birthday... I make everything about others. I don't even like my birthday celebrated at all, or anything done much at all for Father's Day. The only exception I make is if kids want to do something for me for those two days (even then I accept it because I know it makes them happy to give me something... I don't feel particularly comfortable with gifts at all). Though I love to give.

The chores that are mine around the house I do alone. I will help out with other's chores, but I'll never ask or even feel comfortable with others helping me. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

I don't even like receiving gifts all that much, mostly because I just don't want much at all (materially).

Pretty much the only thing I ask of my wife is that she love me, and that's pretty much manifested in affection and sexual intimacy (that I want her to enjoy as well... because even there I like to give more than I get).

Mavash.

I was abused as a child. It has taken 3 YEARS of therapy over 13 years, reading 100's of self help books and a whole lot of work on my part to heal.

Prior to this I was incapable of putting myself out there for my husband. I had an intense fear of intimacy. I could have sex and loved it but I wanted it to be fast and over quickly hence why he hated it.

I'm adding this to the conversation because unless you've been abused you have no idea how much it messes up your ability to love and be loved. I wanted the affection from my husband and yet it repelled me at the same time. I felt like I couldn't breathe so I pulled away often so much that he quit all together.

I'm better now and can actually sit with him on the couch and cuddle, am okay with 'some' groping and he can hug me without me pulling away. For the better part of my marriage I was unaware that I did these things and even had he pointed them out it wouldn't have changed anything. I was too 'checked out' to do anything about it.

Tall Average Guy

Consider that she takes you and your marriage for granted because she does not need to make any effort in it. People appreciate what they have to work for. When they get something for free, they don't treat it as well and often take it for granted. You, by not letting her do any of the work, communicate that the marriage is "free" and nothing she has to earn. She does not need to work for it.

This flows with MEMs advice about not smoothering her (that is, turning down thermostat).

Browncoat

Thanks Mavash. When I married my wife I knew she was sexually abused as a child.

We both thought it was fairly mild in that no penetration took place (highly inappropriate petting). She was so young most of the years that it happened that she didn't even think anything of it at the time. When she finally got old enough to realize what was happening and that it bothered her, she put an end to it.

We both thought it was something in the past, and that she had grown past it. Though as we are going through therapy we are finding it's left scars on her attitudes towards sex, which were only made worse by her mother's attitudes towards masturbation and sex.

So that is something we are working through. She could very well be manifesting some or even many of the things you talked about. Some very good food for thought, thanks! I'll talk to my wife and have her read this over later today/tonight when she's back home.

Browncoat

Right now the thermostat is definitely set to low. Since therapy yesterday I only touch her if she touches me, and even then it's limited affection and short. She's kissed me once, but I've returned only a short gentle peck back.

I'm pretty much treating her as a friend unless she shows some affection, and even then I'm returning only what she gives... or even perhaps a bit less than she gives.

I hear what you are saying about the marriage being free vs a reward for effort given. Not sure how that should play out over the long haul. For the time being I plan to continue what I've been doing over the past day or so until at least next Friday when we meet with the ST again. I'll decide then if I want to change anything.

MYM1430

Browncoat,

You say that you don't really like receiving gifts, but you want your wife to show love to you. What if your wife shows love by giving gifts? In your relationship, have you rejected or downplayed your wifes gifts? She may feel like she isn't allowed to love you because you don't want her gifts. If her love language has been rejected or been given no opportunity to show, she won't feel very loving towards you in other areas.

Mavash.

There is no such thing as 'mild' childhood abuse. My scars run deep. In fact over the past few weeks I've been extremely emotional and crying a lot. I'm finally starting to feel the pain of what my parents did to me. I can't talk about it to my husband because I don't like crying in front him. Once recently I did let him in (I had locked myself in the bedroom) but mostly I cry out of sight. Although last week I started crying at my doctors appointment. Oh yeah the tears they are flowing. Sucks.

I see now the prison I was in despite appearing perfectly normal on the outside. And now lucky me I get to muddle through all the feelings. My therapist says I'm doing great and that this is all normal but I hate it.

And again it took 3 years of therapy to get here and I truly had no idea how much pain I had buried.

Browncoat

Interesting. I don't notice her being a giver of gifts so much as a giver of deeds.

I don't really know what to accept though service or gift wise.

I don't own much that's mine. My house, two cars, pets (well except for my aging 17 year old cat), etc... they are all for my family to enjoy and/or use. If it was just me living alone I'd have an extremely modest apartment.

The only things that I have that are really mine is my computer, some books (I guess I own a cheap $30 bookcase too), and some clothes. I share a dresser, a night stand, and a bed. Really that's it. I have nothing more that isn't meant for others, and I want nothing more. Just not materialistic in the slightest. Not based on principle... it's just how I am. I never had much as a kid (we were poor) and I always learned to appreciate being more than content with little.

I keep a few nick knacks from my youth... but not much. If I lost everything I own (not my family just things) in a fire... I wouldn't be concerned in the slightest. I'd just be sad for others in my family loosing their things.

I just don't need much from others or really feel comfortable getting much from others. I actually make a point to ask people not to get me things for Christmas or my birthday because I just don't want the extra stuff. I actually don't tell others my birthday because I don't even enjoy being told "happy birthday" and having people make a fuss. I don't care of it at all, I just put up with it and put on a happy face so that others feel happy giving me something... even though I don't want it at all.

So when I say that all I want is affection from my wife... I mean just that. Sure I love what she does for me and the family as a housewife: cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc... I thank her all the time for those things... and perhaps as I write that perhaps I shouldn't express my gratitude as much? Not sure there.

To answer your question though, I never reject a gift. But often times I just don't know what to do with extra stuff. Honestly to me extra stuff is just like a new dust catcher.

Browncoat

You are right. I was physically abused a lot as a kid, and part of that is still with me. I tend to put it away those memories in a sort of box and just go about my life. Every so often though that box gets opened by something in my life... a trigger of sorts and it comes back out and hurts all over again. I'm not proud of it... but there it is.

I suppose I shouldn't expect my wife's ordeal to be any different. To be honest not sure why I have downplayed it... my best guess would be because she doesn't bring it up much at all.

MYM1430

There seems to be a disconnect in your perception of what you need. You say you don't need much from others or feel comfortable getting much from others. Yet, in sexual matters you have expressed very strong and unmet needs. I think you may need to consider that your wife has known you to only give and never receive. She has expereinced the awkward rejection that comes from giving an unappreciated gift. Your discomfort with receiving has rubbed off and possibly infected her expressions of love to you. You may also need to consider that you have been suppressing your desires in other areas (a possible explination for the discomfort/guilt you experience in receiving).